Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 10:18:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 18:37:30 GMT -5
I'd always had the impression that tithing was based on earned income. However, I do know that churches sometimes expect you to pay whatever you'd promised to give at the beginning of the year, & go after you if you don't, which is really rather sad. DH & I no longer turn in pledge cards, but we still give. (We've been unemployed enough over the years...)
What I would suggest to the daughter is, if her conscience is gnawing at her, to tithe off her unemployment money. JMHO. In our church, if you're falling behind you might get a call from the Treasurer near year-end to see if you'll be able to catch up, but it's low-key and if you've fallen on hard times, OK, you're still a member of the church. As a former Treasurer, I'd be very uncomfortable knowing that someone on unemployment was dipping into meager savings to keep up their donations. When I resigned from my job last May, keeping up our pledge was a no-brainer but that's because we could do it with no hardship. I did decrease our pledge for 2015. I felt bad about it but it made sense and it's actually a higher % of our total income (DH's SS + my pension + what we're likely to end up taking out of our investments) than previous years. Ratcheting it down to 10% of SS + pension would have been a significant decrease. Without getting too theological, I've seen a whole lot of interpretations of tithing because the Bible makes no reference how it applies to taxes (before or after you render unto Caesar?), realized or unrealized capital gains, inheritances, etc. DH and I just trust our instincts and I can say that we're in the top 5 pledgers in our church (or were back when I was Treasurer and had access to that information).
|
|
Ombud
Junior Associate
Joined: Jan 14, 2013 23:21:04 GMT -5
Posts: 7,601
|
Post by Ombud on Jan 8, 2015 20:09:21 GMT -5
10% of unemployment might be too much as that'll really be stretched. Is she doing this to keep up a facade? Won't her church discontinue it as her earned income is non-existent?
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Jan 8, 2015 20:19:57 GMT -5
Back home ( not disclosing ) my mom tells me horror stories about giving to the church. they keep aparently tight records of who pays and who doesn't their yearly "contribution" they call it. Is somewhere on $150-175 a year. Not much for us-a lot for them! the priest refused to perform a burial ceremony until paid in full up to date. The same goes for weddings or christening. The whole town goes to the same church since there is just one. Very traditional, very conservative! It is all about money after all!
|
|
Ombud
Junior Associate
Joined: Jan 14, 2013 23:21:04 GMT -5
Posts: 7,601
|
Post by Ombud on Jan 8, 2015 20:24:27 GMT -5
Damn!! So much for them being 'Christian' re: someone falling on hard times!
|
|
tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
|
Post by tskeeter on Jan 8, 2015 20:35:30 GMT -5
Would you? If you lost your job, had no income but some savings?
Is it even allowed by church?
Went to my hair stylist this morning. Her DD lost her job. She used to make about $45K/year and was big on tithing 10%, so about $500/month. She lost her job 4 months ago and is collecting unemployment. But she still tithes....same amount.....taking that much money from her $16K savings.
Aren't you supposed to tithe only from earned income? I am in no way into religion, so please correct me if I am wrong.
Will your church allow you to use your savings to tithe to the church? No church I've ever seen has been terribly particular about ensuring that members can really afford the donations they are making (including my FIL's church). As long as you're willing to write the checks, churches seem to be perfectly willing to cash them. Is contrbuting money that you can't afford to any activity a smart move? Nope. Is contrbuting to your church an investment in your future? Not the future you have on this earth. My FIL's church certainly didn't offer to step in and pay off the credit card bills and the mortgage on the house to keep my in-laws out of bankruptcy court. On that note, I'm going home. Obviously I'm tired and getting overly cynical today.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 10:18:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 20:39:36 GMT -5
Although DH and I don't tithe, we do pledge annually and this year we had a pretty significant discussion about it because we may or may not actually fulfill our annual pledge if we change churches. If we make the decision to move to another parish, we will certainly advise our church's finance committee that we will not be paying the balance of our pledge. Unlike some others, our monthly giving, while substantial in our minds, will not make or break our church.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 31,330
|
Post by andi9899 on Jan 8, 2015 21:10:06 GMT -5
I am a straight up heathen, so I don't tithe at all. Of course, I might if I went to church more often. When I go and they pass the hat, I give them a few bucks. That's all they get from me. No one is going to dictate how much money I give.
|
|
sesfw
Junior Associate
Today is the first day of the rest of my life
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 15:45:17 GMT -5
Posts: 6,268
|
Post by sesfw on Jan 8, 2015 22:16:37 GMT -5
We didn't turn in a pledge card this year ....... and when we get back from vacation we'll go to a different church.
Any funds from us will be a bonus to both churches.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 10:18:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 23:22:52 GMT -5
Although DH and I don't tithe, we do pledge annually and this year we had a pretty significant discussion about it because we may or may not actually fulfill our annual pledge if we change churches. If we make the decision to move to another parish, we will certainly advise our church's finance committee that we will not be paying the balance of our pledge. This is perfectly reasonable. DH and I left a church in October and when I ran it by a discussion group from my denomination (Episcopalians) the consensus among lay and clergy alike was that if you leave, your pledge goes with you.
|
|
Works4me
Senior Member
Someone responded to your personal ad - a German Shepherd named Tara wants to have you for dinner...
Joined: May 5, 2012 12:11:37 GMT -5
Posts: 2,555
|
Post by Works4me on Jan 8, 2015 23:50:17 GMT -5
Wondering why the mother is so upset - is she afraid that she will be expected to support her daughter if/when she runs out of money?
ETA - my understanding of tithe is that it is supposed to be off of one's increase, in this case meaning 10% of the $700 unemployment compensation she is receiving plus 10% of any interest earned, etc.
I have seen people continue to give excessively in situations like this not only because they want to please God but rather because they like the perks that come with being known as a faithful donor - usually they are people that feel minimal used in most/all other parts of their world.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Jan 9, 2015 7:00:31 GMT -5
A tithe is one tenth. So, presumably you have been giving a tenth of your income as you earned so whatever you have save was already tithed on. So, I really don't understand the question.
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Jan 9, 2015 8:19:46 GMT -5
Wondering why the mother is so upset - is she afraid that she will be expected to support her daughter if/when she runs out of money? ETA - my understanding of tithe is that it is supposed to be off of one's increase, in this case meaning 10% of the $700 unemployment compensation she is receiving plus 10% of any interest earned, etc. I have seen people continue to give excessively in situations like this not only because they want to please God but rather because they like the perks that come with being known as a faithful donor - usually they are people that feel minimal used in most/all other parts of their world.This is exactly what is happening with DH's fathers wife. She became a member of The Jehovahs Witness'. It seems she has been donating a shitload of money. Some she told about thruthfully and unfortunately some she didn't. near as he can tell she has been giving over $1000 a month plus using her van to the tune of another $1000 a month in gas. Between their pensions and SS they maybe bring in $3000 a month. we just found out that they are in serious marital problems as FIL is going crazy trying to figure out how to get her to stop giving all of their money to the church. He tried to get a PT job but new flash she just used that as an excuse to scoop up that amount also to give to them. I'm positive she feels that since she is doing God's work it is really in everyone's best interest we are all just too stupid to understand it. She has borrowed to pay bills while not saying she actually spent that money by giving to the church which was why she didn't have the money to pay the taxes ect in the first place. At this point I don't know where it is going to go. They literally can't keep up this pace and she is unwilling to tell the truth. In my mind she enjoys being the big shit.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 10:18:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 9:00:49 GMT -5
This is exactly what is happening with DH's father's wife. She became a member of The Jehovahs Witness'. It seems she has been donating a shitload of money. Some she told about thruthfully and unfortunately some she didn't. near as he can tell she has been giving over $1000 a month plus using her van to the tune of another $1000 a month in gas. Between their pensions and SS they maybe bring in $3000 a month. <snip> In my mind she enjoys being the big shit. That's sad and the church should not encourage that. DH was a church Treasurer and when he realized that one member was likely giving 30% of her income (she was a teacher so DH had an idea she was overdoing it), he had a discreet talk with the priest and told him she might need some pastoral counseling to the effect that you can't buy your way into heaven. In our church, if you asked the average person in the pew who the high-hitters are, no one would have a clue. We all know who's really active and visible; some of them donate a lot of $$, some don't. The family that was donating $80K/year when I was Financial Secretary is active in a few ministries but only the handful of people who have access to pledge information would have any idea; they don't act like they own the place. There's a reason the Episcopal church gave up pew rentals. (The historic church I attended in NJ still had remnants of little numbered brass plates on the pews; the ones near the front were the high-rent district, of course.) OTOH- sometimes I wish they'd bring back pew rentals. Our church mortgage payment is $11,000/month. Utilities average another $1,800. (Note this is before we even pay our priest.) We have about 100 families active in the church. If a $1,000 pledge is all you can do, then God bless you and thank you, but if you're making $50K per year and have average expenses well, sorry, you're not paying your fair share. Some of the people with more modest pledges are driving shiny new SUVs. One woman who's a financial analyst is supporting a teenage son and her retired mother, but she puts a $5 check in the collection- when she attends church. I know it's un-Christian of me to judge but hey, I'm human.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 10:18:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 9:10:36 GMT -5
How can a church with 100 members justify an 11,000 a month mortgage?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 10:18:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 9:22:33 GMT -5
How can a church with 100 members justify an 11,000 a month mortgage? We have 100 families (with a couple or a single person with no kids counting as a family). We built the church in anticipation that membership would grow. It hasn't, really, and losing our priest in late 2013 didn't help. We just brought in a new priest a few months ago and he's fantastic. I hope it helps.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 10:18:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 9:31:41 GMT -5
Well, I personally wouldn't find fault with the people. If I did believe in my money going to 'God'... It wouldn't be to his house. I wouldn't be attracted to a church where all of my tithe went to a mortgage.
|
|
Pants
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 19:26:44 GMT -5
Posts: 7,579
|
Post by Pants on Jan 9, 2015 9:51:35 GMT -5
How can a church with 100 members justify an 11,000 a month mortgage? We have 100 families (with a couple or a single person with no kids counting as a family). We built the church in anticipation that membership would grow. It hasn't, really, and losing our priest in late 2013 didn't help. We just brought in a new priest a few months ago and he's fantastic. I hope it helps. Your church was built in anticipation that membership would grow? When church attendance is falling across the country and churches are shuttering? That seems... not the wisest idea?
|
|
swasat
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 13, 2011 9:34:28 GMT -5
Posts: 3,735
|
Post by swasat on Jan 9, 2015 10:15:23 GMT -5
Wondering why the mother is so upset - is she afraid that she will be expected to support her daughter if/when she runs out of money?
ETA - my understanding of tithe is that it is supposed to be off of one's increase, in this case meaning 10% of the $700 unemployment compensation she is receiving plus 10% of any interest earned, etc. I have seen people continue to give excessively in situations like this not only because they want to please God but rather because they like the perks that come with being known as a faithful donor - usually they are people that feel minimal used in most/all other parts of their world. Because the daughter only has $16K saved up. No other assets. And she is dippping into that $16K to fund a $500 tithe and taking out $200 or so too for living expenses. The mother is worried at this rate the meager $16K is not going to last long. Wouldn't you be worried if your 30yo daughter didn't have much money but was depleting her savings? The mother has suggested that tithing stop till she gets a job. Then she should immediately resume and maybe even increase the tithe amount for God's grace. Falls on deaf ears. Apparently, in that church, a pledge is a pledge is a pledge.......
|
|
swasat
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 13, 2011 9:34:28 GMT -5
Posts: 3,735
|
Post by swasat on Jan 9, 2015 10:18:10 GMT -5
How can a church with 100 members justify an 11,000 a month mortgage? We have 100 families (with a couple or a single person with no kids counting as a family). We built the church in anticipation that membership would grow. It hasn't, really, and losing our priest in late 2013 didn't help. We just brought in a new priest a few months ago and he's fantastic. I hope it helps. Isn't that a case of taking the leap too quickly? Build a huge house, get on all bills, without knowing for sure the membership will grow. Would have been a better idea to build the church AFTER the membership grew.
|
|
Sam_2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 15:42:45 GMT -5
Posts: 12,350
|
Post by Sam_2.0 on Jan 9, 2015 10:36:56 GMT -5
I think a lot of the confusion here comes from the terms. "Tithe" was set up in the OT and there were a couple of them. It was like the tax system at the time. Ended up coming out to about 30% of their total income along the way, which is about like ours now. A lot of people held on to the 10% that went for the church/temple as their guideline. Contribution to church can be any amount (percentage, set dollar, etc), but a lot of churches have kept the "tithing" principle around in their teachings so contribution = tithing. When someone says "tithe", I wouldn't necessarily assume 10%. Kind of like saying I need a Kleenex. It may or may not actually be a Kleenex
|
|
cael
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 9:12:36 GMT -5
Posts: 5,745
|
Post by cael on Jan 9, 2015 10:38:47 GMT -5
|
|
Sam_2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 15:42:45 GMT -5
Posts: 12,350
|
Post by Sam_2.0 on Jan 9, 2015 10:40:44 GMT -5
Wondering why the mother is so upset - is she afraid that she will be expected to support her daughter if/when she runs out of money?
ETA - my understanding of tithe is that it is supposed to be off of one's increase, in this case meaning 10% of the $700 unemployment compensation she is receiving plus 10% of any interest earned, etc. I have seen people continue to give excessively in situations like this not only because they want to please God but rather because they like the perks that come with being known as a faithful donor - usually they are people that feel minimal used in most/all other parts of their world. Because the daughter only has $16K saved up. No other assets. And she is dippping into that $16K to fund a $500 tithe and taking out $200 or so too for living expenses. The mother is worried at this rate the meager $16K is not going to last long. Wouldn't you be worried if your 30yo daughter didn't have much money but was depleting her savings? The mother has suggested that tithing stop till she gets a job. Then she should immediately resume and maybe even increase the tithe amount for God's grace. Falls on deaf ears. Apparently, in that church, a pledge is a pledge is a pledge....... At the rate of $700/m coming from her savings, it should last her about 2 years. I would hope she could find a job in that time (and not have any other large expenses pop up). Could it be the daughter isn't as worried about finding a new job as her mom is? She really is well ahead of the game even having that much available, since most people don't.
|
|
swasat
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 13, 2011 9:34:28 GMT -5
Posts: 3,735
|
Post by swasat on Jan 9, 2015 10:52:16 GMT -5
Because the daughter only has $16K saved up. No other assets. And she is dippping into that $16K to fund a $500 tithe and taking out $200 or so too for living expenses. The mother is worried at this rate the meager $16K is not going to last long. Wouldn't you be worried if your 30yo daughter didn't have much money but was depleting her savings? The mother has suggested that tithing stop till she gets a job. Then she should immediately resume and maybe even increase the tithe amount for God's grace. Falls on deaf ears. Apparently, in that church, a pledge is a pledge is a pledge....... At the rate of $700/m coming from her savings, it should last her about 2 years. I would hope she could find a job in that time (and not have any other large expenses pop up). Could it be the daughter isn't as worried about finding a new job as her mom is? She really is well ahead of the game even having that much available, since most people don't. Only $16K at age 30 is pretty pathetic Sam. I can see the mother's POV (maybe also because I have no interest in religion whatsoever). Instead of thinking "I can honor my pledge for 2 years sine I have 16K", why doesn't the DD think "What am I going to do AFTER 2 years if I can't land a job and I have depleted every single penny I own".
|
|
tractor
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 15:19:30 GMT -5
Posts: 3,492
|
Post by tractor on Jan 9, 2015 10:53:15 GMT -5
I find it strange that a church would track members donations to the point that they call them out on it. I have been going to church my whole life, tithing for about the past 20 years. The church keeps track for tax purposes and gives us a statement at year end, but if they ever were to come and wonder why I didn't give for one month or two expecting me to pick up the pace, I'd wonder I what their motivation really was, and move on to another parish.
She should adjust her tithe according to her income, no income, no tithe.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Jan 9, 2015 11:00:42 GMT -5
At the rate of $700/m coming from her savings, it should last her about 2 years. I would hope she could find a job in that time (and not have any other large expenses pop up). Could it be the daughter isn't as worried about finding a new job as her mom is? She really is well ahead of the game even having that much available, since most people don't. Only $16K at age 30 is pretty pathetic Sam. I can see the mother's POV (maybe also because I have no interest in religion whatsoever). Instead of thinking "I can honor my pledge for 2 years sine I have 16K", why doesn't the DD think "What am I going to do AFTER 2 years if I can't land a job and I have depleted every single penny I own". These are no longer the days of 2 years' worth of unemployment either. In my state, it's 20 weeks. In others, I think it's only 26 weeks.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,720
|
Post by midjd on Jan 9, 2015 11:04:15 GMT -5
Count me in as another non-religious person who is starting to remember why I don't go to church. Get up early every Sunday and donate money in exchange for the opportunity to be judged on my perceived salary or the type of vehicle I drive? I already get that for free every day.
|
|
CarolinaKat
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 16:10:37 GMT -5
Posts: 6,364
|
Post by CarolinaKat on Jan 9, 2015 11:09:35 GMT -5
Count me in as another non-religious person who is starting to remember why I don't go to church. Get up early every Sunday and donate money in exchange for the opportunity to be judged on my perceived salary or the type of vehicle I drive? I already get that for free every day. You articulated this sentiment much better than I could.
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
|
Post by imawino on Jan 9, 2015 11:12:24 GMT -5
Count me in as another non-religious person who is starting to remember why I don't go to church. Get up early every Sunday and donate money in exchange for the opportunity to be judged on my perceived salary or the type of vehicle I drive? I already get that for free every day. You articulated this sentiment much better than I could. Yep. And with less profanity!
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Jan 9, 2015 11:24:26 GMT -5
It kind of disgusts me that any church would encourage someone to give away their money to the point of destitution. I know Jesus said to give away everything and follow him, but then what? Couch surf until all your friends/family kick you out in disgust?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 11, 2024 10:18:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 11:24:27 GMT -5
Only $16K at age 30 is pretty pathetic Sam. I can see the mother's POV (maybe also because I have no interest in religion whatsoever). Instead of thinking "I can honor my pledge for 2 years sine I have 16K", why doesn't the DD think "What am I going to do AFTER 2 years if I can't land a job and I have depleted every single penny I own". These are no longer the days of 2 years' worth of unemployment either. In my state, it's 20 weeks. In others, I think it's only 26 weeks. That also assumes she has ZERO unexpected expenses during her unemployment and she doesn't have to move for a new job.
|
|