kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Mar 7, 2011 12:17:24 GMT -5
I have only read the first page, so forgive if this is redundant. I really do think you need a new circle of friends. In our close circle of friends I don't know a single SAHM or SAHD. Of our two closest couple friends, one makes about 40% more than her DH and the other makes about 20% less than her DH. I make about 20% more than DF. I think being in similar situations as your closest friends tend to make you more happy with your own.
Kind of like the idea that hanging out with happily married couples is better for a marriage than hanging out with unhappily married couples.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 7, 2011 12:18:48 GMT -5
.
Ya think? The OP is a crackpot. How do you simultaneously talk about your years of resentment, his failed ventures, his inability to estimate time and cost (manage a project), perhaps even getting to a place where it's financially feasible to divorce him-- and get deeper into a financial entanglement with him that involves other people's money?
You can't have your cake and eat it, too, lady.
I suspect your "helping" hubby over the years with failed business ventures was the same then as it is now-- a lottery ticket mentality. One big score that fixes everything.
Because all these years, you could have stayed home and raised your kids, but you liked the satisfaction and the money you got from working.
To the extent you felt called to do something else- raise kids- and failed to heed the calling, you blamed your husband for that, and it's really unfair.
I suppose in a few years when this venture inevitably fails, that'll be his fault too.
What's your plan? Another lottery ticket? Let his parents leverage your way out of the marriage? I suspect the guilt you feel is justified. It's normal for a horrible person to feel horrible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 12:31:46 GMT -5
Yes Paul - because when women get tired of supporting lazy ass men, men need to start slapping them around so they stop worrying about money and start worrying about their lives. Thanks for this, tbird- I was really alienated by Paul's reference to physical violence.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 7, 2011 12:50:58 GMT -5
That's because it's not great. HE makes more money, WE make more money. SHE makes more money, SHE has more money.
That's how it is in the situations I'm aware of (only two-- anecdotal, I know) and that's what came to mind when I read what you wrote...
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Frugal Nurse
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Post by Frugal Nurse on Mar 7, 2011 12:53:42 GMT -5
I sure hope my DH doesn't speak about me to other people the way you speak about your husband! Isn't the point of an anonymous message board to be able to talk about things honestly and receive feedback without the polite front you have to put on to your friends and relatives? I certainly wouldn't tell this to people he has to interact with. By voicing these negative feelings, you are showing extreme disrespect for your husband. I have been happily married for almost 6 years, and one of the biggest elements of keeping our relationship good has been respecting each other. Everyone has a habit/personality trait that you aren't going to like. There is not perfect person, and expecting your husband to be perfect, then griping about it to people on a message board is an incredibly juvenile way of looking at things. You blame your husband for every aspect of your life that you find undesirable. That is childish. Start looking at life with an adult point of view and you and your husband will both be better for it. So, while going on an anonymous message board and venting (although, to be fair, you are more than venting. you are downright attacking your husband and he isn't even here to defend himself!) isn't a horrible thing, the fact that you feel this way toward your husband is horrible. How sad for him that he is married to a wife who expects him to take care of her, who doesn't appreciate the life they've had together, who thinks he is the crap she stepped in on the way to the office this morning. A wife who keeps him around solely to keep from being broke.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 7, 2011 12:54:16 GMT -5
Yes Paul - because when women get tired of supporting lazy ass men, men need to start slapping them around so they stop worrying about money and start worrying about their lives. Thanks for this, tbird- I was really alienated by Paul's reference to physical violence. I don't think her husband should slap her. I don't think anyone should slap her. I said, "I FEEL like slapping her". The good book says, "...be ye angry and sin not". I only expressed the feeling. If it came across as advocating for slapping, I apologize for that. I'm not for violence. Though, I have often pondered the benefit of theraputic slapping. I have looked into opening a non-traditional clinic which would provide slapping as alternative medicine.
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Frugal Nurse
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Post by Frugal Nurse on Mar 7, 2011 12:57:45 GMT -5
After all these posts, do you not realize that he is not and cannot be responsible for your happiness? My suggestion, try making HIM happy. Try doing things to make his life pleasant, happy and fun. Cook him dinner, sit and chat with him, do things that he is interested in doing. Watch nascar with him or whatever he likes. Then, get out and join something you like. Join a club, church, activity. Join the local gym. Take up a hobby If you truly want to leave, then you leave now. Otherwise, it is clear that you are not really going to make a decision continue to stay put in your misery. I'm going to second this suggestion. When my DH and I are getting irritated at each other, it is usually due to stress. So I ask myself, how can I make his life less stressful so we can get along? I go out of my way to be extra kind to him. And you know what? It makes him less stressed, he appreciates what I've done, and goes out of his way to return the favor. It is like that old saying "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar"
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 13:05:10 GMT -5
This looks to me like more of the same, even with a couple of reasonable people involved. Does it involve you and/or your husband taking on any more debt? Does it involve your husband quitting his job so he can play at renovating? Here we go again.
No, it doesn't require him quitting his job and I would only do it if his parents financed the project, then we re-financed into a mortgage when it was complete (and that the mortgage could be covered by rent if it was a rental). They are financially stable in their retirement and recently inherited a share in a house that is currently for sale and have talked about what to do with the money from the sale and what project they want to work on next. I wouldn't do it unless they wanted it to be their project where we do the work and are involved in the creative side, but they have the final say and I wouldn't take on another HUGE project, it would need to be a reasonable job that could be completed within 3 months of weekends.
I'm not talking about a project for the sake of making a profit (but I don't want to loose money), I'm talking about a project for the sake of creating an environment we can be creative and feel good about something together. I think we both need a creative outlet.
My suggestion, try making HIM happy. Try doing things to make his life pleasant, happy and fun. Cook him dinner, sit and chat with him, do things that he is interested in doing.
I do all those things. I work really hard to keep my feelings to myself (in real life, not here) and watch the shows he wants to watch and cook the food he wants to eat and go visit the people he wants to hang out with and buy the smaller stuff he wants to buy.
Why will you not put money into your own home?
Because we've already put way more money into it then we'll ever be able to get out of it. We've had lengthy discussions about it with 3 different real estate agents and they all said we've gone past the tipping point. It's an old house with weird quirks that is beautifully renovated and charming but is never going to be worth as much as a similar sized new house.
Because all these years, you could have stayed home and raised your kids, but you liked the satisfaction and the money you got from working.
Exactly how do you figure that? Unless you meant quitting my job and going on welfare. But even then, they make you go look for a job.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 14:22:02 GMT -5
As for your house, what else do you want from it that you don't have?
I don't really want anything from this house except to finish up some unfinished trim work in the finished basement and replace a section of carpet on the stairs that the cat clawed up and re-paint one of the guest rooms that's looking dingy and for him to either get rid of or remove from sight all of the huge piles of unfinished machinery projects that are all over the yard. I would like to cut an opening with a small ledge in the wall between the kitchen & living room so conversation can flow between the 2 rooms and not have guests huddle in the kitchen, but he's dead set against it, so I dropped the subject. I'm fine with staying here until we can afford something better.
Sometime before retirement, I want to move to a house that's handicapped accessible with more than 1 bathroom and an open floor plan and is newly built with low maintenance and no weird things like dirt crawl spaces and uneven walls and narrow staircases, etc. I want to design it myself and be able to enjoy the process and be proud of the results and not start on it until I have the time & money to do it and not end up with a really expensive house that will have high taxes.
He wants a huge heated workshop and a separate garage to park the cars. He knows he can't have it at this house, so he keeps adding on to the current garage. So it now has 2 main buildings, both insulated with separate heating systems and 2 lean-tos and a car lift, but it still can't contain all of his stuff and he doesn't have enough room to work on things, so he keeps buying different shelving and storage units and trying to get it to the point where he can be happy with it. He did agree to stop putting up outdoor structures without permits after our last go-round with the building inspector.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 7, 2011 14:33:11 GMT -5
don't really want anything from this house except
You had A LOT of "excepts" OP.
You are never going to be happy if you don't stop focusing on everything you DON'T have. Even if your DH is as bad as you make him out to be, sitting around wishing he was a better person solves nothing.
Sitting around wishing you were a SAHM solves nothing, sitting around wishing for all the things you wish your house was solves nothing.
You are MAKING yourself miserable by constantly focusing on what everyone else has (your SAHM "friends") and what you don't have.
Try looking at what you have right in front of you and you may find out life isn't as shitty as you think it is.
When you get your validation in life externally you leave yourself in the position of once those things are lost you have nothing to fall back on.
You need to get some self esteem and start finding self validation before you are ever going to be happy.
Otherwise you are going to piss what is rest of your life away constantly pining for what you don't have and hating yourself for not getting it.
Either get it or shut up and start trying to figure out how to look positively at what you already have.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 7, 2011 14:34:02 GMT -5
...:::"I guess I'm ok with being an equal partner, but I really wanted to be the one in the supporting role, I don't want all of the responsibility for taking care of everyone all of the time.":::...
This is back from page 5, so I'm sure more has come since then, but I have to go bit by bit.
I think this sentence is quite telling. It really proves that sometimes we need to just cut through the crapcake and say what we really mean. We can all sugarcoat our words and talk about how effort counts, or thought counts, and equality is important. But we all have to answer to ourselves in the end, and qofcc was finally direct with herself and with us in saying the above.
The whole "specialization" is also a fun topic, since sometimes one person produces better results at a job that he/she hates. qofcc is currently making significantly more money. From a purely economical standpoint, she should be in the role of breadwinner. But its never that simple -- she doesn't "want" to be. That presents a problem since the household as a whole benefits financially from having her perform a job she hates.
It doesn't help that right now, the happiness of the household is insufficient to mask the dissatisfaction with being the breadwinner. Plus, all those other deep seeded resents and wants just make for a big salad of badness.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 14:41:52 GMT -5
You seem to want to do a lot of remodeling.
You plural or you as in me? The bedroom is going to take me 1 day and a can of paint that I already have. I also have the carpet scraps from when we originally did the carpeting to fix the steps, I just need to buy the glue. I need to wait for warm weather so I can do those projects with the windows open. The trim work is making removable covers for all of the utility access openings in the basement (instead of just holes in the walls and ceiling) and creating a soffit around one of the heating ducts. I'm estimating about $50-75 in materials, but the actual measuring and cutting and gluing and painting is going to take a few days and create a mess and DH's son has been living down there while he looks for a job and doesn't want us to create dust around his electronics, so we've been waiting for him to move out before starting on it. He finally found a full-time job this week, so hopefully he'll be able to move out soon.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 14:52:42 GMT -5
That presents a problem since the household as a whole benefits financially from having her perform a job she hates.
I agree with most of what you said. I don't actually hate my job, I hate that we're in a position that we couldn't survive without my job and that when there are problems, it's my responsibility to solve them and other people can spend money, but I have to figure out how to pay the bills.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 7, 2011 14:57:23 GMT -5
I hate that we're in a position that we couldn't survive without my job and that when there are problems, it's my responsibility to solve them and other people can spend money, but I have to figure out how to pay the bills.
Ever seen that commerical where the guy has all the cool stuff and at the end goes "How do I afford it? I am in debt up to my eyeballs!"
Unless you are personally managing their books you have no idea if they are forgoing a mortage payment in favor of a vacation or have thousands of dollars in CC debt in order to obtain that fabulous wardrobe.
I am sure you can arge "Well her husband does X, she does Y", but even someone who makes good money can be a piss poor money manager.
My husband is a lot like you and he is often very miserable because he is constantly under the influence of the green eyed monster. When I can get him to take a step back and look at the entire picture he realizes his life doesn't suck quite so much.
He could have the fancy house but be married to a shrew. He could have the two kids and a big backyard but be married to someone addicted to gambling.
He could have the fancy house, three trucks and a big yard but be on the hook for student loans for a son who dropped out after you took out said loans for him.
You never know what is going on behind closed doors. Stop looking at what other people have and trying to figure out how they have it and focus on what you go or getting those things on your own.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 15:15:19 GMT -5
You never know what is going on behind closed doors. Stop looking at what other people have and trying to figure out how they have it and focus on what you go or getting those things on your own.
Where did I say that I envied other people's stuff? Yes, someday I want the pride of living in a building that I designed, kind of like an artist desires to have their paintings in a museum, but I'm not planning to invest money in a house that is beyond my means.
I envy other people's situation in that I see other wives have more time to do things that make them feel satisfied and that their husbands seem to have the attitude that they are the men and they make the plans and they are the ones ultimately responsible for the safety and security of the family.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 7, 2011 15:19:42 GMT -5
envy other people's situation in that I see other wives have more time to do things that make them feel satisfied and that their husbands seem to have the attitude that they are the men and they make the plans and they are the ones ultimately responsible for the safety and security of the family
So instead of sitting around envying other people figure outhow to make the time to do things you enjoy and make your own plans.
Quit sitting around waiting for your DH to be like their DH's cause it isn't ever going to happen which is why you resent him so much.
Take charge of your own life, stop waiting for someone else to plan it.
Right now it's just you and your DH, you have no kids to support so what is stopping you from having a life of your own?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 7, 2011 15:21:08 GMT -5
"that they are the men and they make the plans"
LOL. Most men I know either can't or don't plan...............
And why do you want to trust your safety and security to someone else?! I find that positively frightening.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 7, 2011 15:24:56 GMT -5
And I still say you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. You see what you WANT to see OP and you see what they want to present to the world. You have no idea what their lives and marriages are like once the door shuts and the lights turn off.
Which is why I don't waste my time envying other people. There could be a whole lot of shit that comes with those things I envy.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 7, 2011 15:28:52 GMT -5
Anyone else thinking troll? It's getting a little too out there for me to believe..... I was having Teri flashbacks.................
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 15:30:50 GMT -5
And why do you want to trust your safety and security to someone else?! I find that positively frightening.
Isn't that historically the point of the instutuion of marriage?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2011 15:33:11 GMT -5
Well, the first part you're gonna have to live with. That in itself shouldn't be a major problem except that it's contrary to what you expected going into the marriage. Plenty of people are in happy, harmonious marriages in which they're the sole or major breadwinner. Heck, even if you divorce him you're still responsible for yourself unless you become Donald Trump's next wife.
The second part I can empathize with and maybe you can change it. I once told my then-husband that our situation reminded me of a practice session of the gorgeous, white Lipizzan stallions I saw in Vienna. The horses rode grandly around with uniformed soldiers on their backs, prancing and leaping, but there was a guy in the ring scurrying around with a giant pooper-scooper. I was the pooper-scooper guy in our marriage.
Your husband has put up so many outbuildings to house his stuff and his unfinished projects he's had the Zoning/Building code people complain? He sounds out of control to me. Every lean-to, every shelf costs money. I know what it's like to visit Home Depot. You're going to buy paint and you come out with paint, a couple of new dropcloths, a book on redecorating your bathroom, replacement faucets for the kitchen because they were on sale, etc. If he can't stay in a budget and control all his spending, and you're left scrambling to juggle the bills, that's a problem.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 7, 2011 15:35:21 GMT -5
Isn't that historically the point of the instutuion of marriage?
Historically marriage was for land grabs, political unions (now my country won't kick your ass, instead you'll help me kick that guy's ass), regaining/obtaining wealth and stuff like that.
It was a business deal between the families/countries, nothing more than that.
The 1950's ushered in the mom in a suburb with two cars and dad going to work in a suit. Even in the 1950's most lower income families had two working parents.
The fact still remains though that your DH isn't like that. It doesn't matter what he did for his ex-wife, the fact is that the same thing did not happen in your marriage.
So instead of whining about how much your life sucks because you can't cram your DH and marriage into the mold you want them to be, how about figuring out if there is even anything you LIKE about your actual marriage and DH?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 7, 2011 15:43:48 GMT -5
And why do you want to trust your safety and security to someone else?! I find that positively frightening. Isn't that historically the point of the instutuion of marriage? DH provides me with safety and security, and I do the same for him, which is nice, but I'd be fine without him. I'm pretty sure he'd do fine without me, too.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 15:50:15 GMT -5
but if I thought my wife didn't respect me, wasn't attracted to me, and had bottled up a lifetime of resentmet towards me, and all of the sudden she let loose with a barrage of what is essentially her own narrow version of events with me at the center of her unhappiness...well, let's just say she wouldn't get the chance to leave me. I'd be packed and gone before the sun came up the next day.
First of all, I didn't say, "I'm not attracted to you", he said that he felt I wasn't enjoying it enough and I said that it's hard to be enthusiastic in bed when you're worried and upset all the time.
Second, this wasn't a barrage of new complaints. I didn't say anything I haven't said after the events happened and again over the years when he pushes me to discuss it. It's coming out as a barrage of complaints on the board, but the conversation with him lasted about 5 minutes.
Third, if he wants to go, he knows where the door is. He feels like he screwed up and he wants to make it better.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 15:52:23 GMT -5
Your husband has put up so many outbuildings to house his stuff and his unfinished projects he's had the Zoning/Building code people complain? He sounds out of control to me. Every lean-to, every shelf costs money. I know what it's like to visit Home Depot. You're going to buy paint and you come out with paint, a couple of new dropcloths, a book on redecorating your bathroom, replacement faucets for the kitchen because they were on sale, etc. If he can't stay in a budget and control all his spending, and you're left scrambling to juggle the bills, that's a problem.
Yes, exactly
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 16:08:39 GMT -5
DH provides me with safety and security, and I do the same for him, which is nice, but I'd be fine without him. I'm pretty sure he'd do fine without me, too.
And before I met DH, I was debt free except for the mortgage, had emergency savings and had my monthly bills to where I could afford to live on unemployment if I lost my job, but because of things that he insisted we do and I reluctantly agreed to, that is no longer the case. At some point, I will again be able to be fine without him if that is what I choose to do. Today is not that point.
That's the difference.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 7, 2011 16:21:58 GMT -5
It sounds like op husband has a hoarding issue. That with money issues might kill me.
My 0.02 cents: Find a counselor for yourself. The counselor for yourself is who you say all the horrible stuff you would never actually tell your husband. It sounds like you don't have a real life confident that you can share these things with (and lots of people don't--it's not a bad thing). I've often wondered if I go to to therapy just to have a person spend 1 hour focused and listening entirely on me. ;D
2nd--find a marriage counselor and go together. Yes, you will filter what you say here. But a good therapist will help you both communicate in a way that the other person understands. I recommend jotting down bullet points of things you want to talk about. This won't be fixed in 1 hour, but it will help keep you on track so your money is well spent.
3rd--talk to an attorney about bk and divorce if your goal is to get financially solvent and then separate. Maybe your husband wants out too, but doesn't want to stick you with the debt so he feels trapped.
Your husband deserves to know if you are thinking about leaving. If this were reversed, wouldn't it hurt more to realize that he was 'playing his part' to keep you complacent for 5 years while he worked on his exit strategy?
Whether the marriage works out or not, I really think a neutral 3rd party counselor is required.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 7, 2011 16:28:32 GMT -5
You sure are heaping a lot of blame and resentment on the guy for choices you both made. I'm no marriage counselor or anything, but I'm pretty sure that's not healthy. Just saying.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 7, 2011 16:35:25 GMT -5
He feels like he screwed up and he wants to make it better
Sounds like unless he gets a time machine or he gets a personality transplant he is never going to make it better from the way your posts sound.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 7, 2011 16:48:12 GMT -5
You sure are heaping a lot of blame and resentment on the guy for choices you both made. I'm no marriage counselor or anything, but I'm pretty sure that's not healthy. Just saying.
I'm angry with myself too, not just him. Stats summed up the thing I blame myself for:
If you become committed to something or someone before you have any way to verify basic information or in spite of contradictory actions, you are going to repeatedly give that person second chances. You have already made the 'decision' (have a child, be married, etc.), so you will be in no emotional position to change your mind and think about it objectively. You have to figure out what is going on before you make the commitment.
I jumped into a relationship too fast and tied myself to him financially by letting him start working on my house and trusting that he knew what he was doing. The rest of my bad decisions were things that I was dragged into kicking and screaming or things I did to try and fix the first mistake.
There's plenty of blame to go around.
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