DD & MIL's Issues

[swamp]

You get what you pay for at minimum wage.

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 11:35:27 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Mar 18, 2015 11:21:13 GMT -5 Opti said:

I never said that anywhere. You said it and believe that's what I believe. I don't.

They have $$. Google homecare for seniors. There are tons of organizations and options.

You not believing that's what you said doesn't mean that isn't exactly what came out of all your posts. You choose not to see it that way. You've defended the men repeatedly, when are you going to defend Pat for being sick of it all? It's not like she ever got a break from caring for someone like most people in her generation have. There's a lull between kids and parental care where you get to have a life usually. Not for her.

IMO, her DD's need for lifetime care trumps MIL's disinterest in going to assisted living. MIL has had time to figure this crap out before she got to this point. Pat's DD only has her parents to figure it out for her. And fund it. 

I am an optimist, but I was a realist first.

You see me as defending the men. I see me trying to explain posters' wishful thinking won't

change their behavior. I am not going to waste effort being upset or mad at people who won't

change. I'm older than most of you thinking foisting it on the men will accomplish something.

You see my posts based on your own beliefs and biases. We as posters sometimes jump

on people because they don't say x so we assume they don't believe x. Really all you know

is they didn't say x. I misread a Dark post(again) because I have a bias against Microsoft

and PC user interfaces. While Dark could have written it better so I parsed it better, my bias

made me read part of it one way simply because he used the phrase 'sprang up' which I

equate more to over night mushrooms than a technological development that started in the 70s.

I have a Mom with Alzheimers in assisted living now. How many of you have my experience?

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 11:42:41 GMT -5 @patstab said:

I never said that anywhere. You said it and believe that's what I believe. I don't.

They have $$. Google homecare for seniors. There are tons of organizations and options.

There are not tons of options here, APS has to come out of the next bigger city.  I called

local mental health and I think its just for drug addicts, they never even called back.

My MIL is not going to let someone come in her house to cook, are you kidding?  She isn't going to let anyone do anything.  I've been trying for 2 years to get her to put in new carpet. 

I called this morning and she said she took her B12 pill.  That bottle is tied to the table leg of the end table too.  That table is going to get awfully crowded.

Pat, you have to present the options. Either person X comes in so many hours a day

or you go into assisted living. A or B. And you have to enforce it.

I'm going to try to leave this thread as I notice no one else with RL experience with this

is posting. Your Mom IMO should have been in assisted living already. I don't think she

would be OK without her sister, but I know you and DH do not agree.

Mental health is the wrong place to call. Dementia is usually a symptom of physical issues. Alzheimers is a physical brain deterioration disease that has mental and behavioral issues that go with it.

[midjd]

I'm going to try to leave this thread as I notice no one else with RL experience with this
is posting.

Swamp's mom has dementia. Busymom spends her time caring for her mother. Several other posters on this thread have had similar experiences as Pat -- although perhaps not without a disabled DD in the mix.

Just because the men won't take responsibility for their own parents doesn't make it Pat's problem.

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 12:25:50 GMT -5 midjd said:

I'm going to try to leave this thread as I notice no one else with RL experience with this
is posting.

Swamp's mom has dementia. Busymom spends her time caring for her mother. Several other posters on this thread have had similar experiences as Pat -- although perhaps not without a disabled DD in the mix.

Just because the men won't take responsibility for their own parents doesn't make it Pat's problem.

Pat made it part her problem when she agreed to move to Indiana and have DH

keep working out of the country.

While the problem belongs more to the men, I am not willing to advocate walking away

and hoping MIL fails in a non-fatal not so bad way. Yes, perhaps you get lucky and she

breaks a hip versus deciding to use the oven and accidently burning down the mobile home.

Perhaps more posters are OK with whatever than I am.

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 11:41:56 GMT -5 swamp said:

You get what you pay for at minimum wage.

Yes you do, and even slightly above that. Everyone should remember that

when the time comes for assisted living and even sub-acute or other healthcare.

The first line people aren't paid well and have many patients to take care of.

At least in a situation like this it would be one on one or one on two care.

[Opti]

I want Pat's situation to resolve positively as most posters do. I just

think Pat and DH need to acknowledge how bad MIL is and step up efforts

to get her out of the mobile home. If I thought vacations in her motorhome

were guaranteed to accomplish that, I'd be more for it.

Alzheimers is only one disease with symptoms of dementia, but it does have

more brains pics than other options so just a reminder what is happening.

(It gets worse, often in surprising and unexpected ways.)

[Chocolate Lover]

Mar 18, 2015 12:06:37 GMT -5 Opti said:

Mar 18, 2015 11:35:27 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

You not believing that's what you said doesn't mean that isn't exactly what came out of all your posts. You choose not to see it that way. You've defended the men repeatedly, when are you going to defend Pat for being sick of it all? It's not like she ever got a break from caring for someone like most people in her generation have. There's a lull between kids and parental care where you get to have a life usually. Not for her.

IMO, her DD's need for lifetime care trumps MIL's disinterest in going to assisted living. MIL has had time to figure this crap out before she got to this point. Pat's DD only has her parents to figure it out for her. And fund it. 

I am an optimist, but I was a realist first.

You see me as defending the men. I see me trying to explain posters' wishful thinking won't

change their behavior. I am not going to waste effort being upset or mad at people who won't

change. I'm older than most of you thinking foisting it on the men will accomplish something.

So you being older than most of us means you were taught it's your job as much as the men were taught it's not theirs. Right?  Because after all, people of any generation can't overcome their childhood teachings and do something different.  

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 13:33:53 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Mar 18, 2015 12:06:37 GMT -5 Opti said:

I am an optimist, but I was a realist first.

You see me as defending the men. I see me trying to explain posters' wishful thinking won't

change their behavior. I am not going to waste effort being upset or mad at people who won't

change. I'm older than most of you thinking foisting it on the men will accomplish something.

So you being older than most of us means you were taught it's your job as much as the men were taught it's not theirs. Right?  Because after all, people of any generation can't overcome their childhood teachings and do something different.  

Not quite.

I know even though they could choose to overcome their conditioning, most do not.

I consider it a sucker bet to expect it.

[Chocolate Lover]

Sarcasm is so lost on some people.

Pat, good luck with it all. We know you won't just abandon them because that's not how you are, but keep on making sure the son gets as many of the calls on his mother as he can. It truly is his job to deal with it, and it even sounds like he does know that. Having you handy has made it easier for him to stick his head in the sand though, so keep routing everyone to him.

[Opti]

Sarcasm is so lost on some people.

It can be. We all have different humor and sarcasm styles.

Logic and odds are lost on others. 

[midjd]

I don't want to drive through Atlanta with the motorhome, I hate that. Someone said I could go 65 and then south. I will be coming out of Evansville so any suggestions. Don't want high elevations either as my old motorhome might be putting along at 1mph going up.

I missed this -- if you hop on 65 in Bowling Green that's probably your best bet. It's flatter than going through eastern KY, at least.

[Chocolate Lover]

Mar 18, 2015 13:52:50 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sarcasm is so lost on some people.

It can be. We all have different humor and sarcasm styles.

Logic and odds are lost on others. 

Logic and odds are all well and good until you're working YOURSELF to death for everyone else around you and can't get any help. They aren't much help then. Speaking up and not "letting it go" is the only way to get relief sometimes. If you can't see we're encouraging Pat to make sure she doesn't let it cause her actual health problems, then I can't help you.

[Chocolate Lover]

Mar 18, 2015 13:53:32 GMT -5 midjd said:

I don't want to drive through Atlanta with the motorhome, I hate that. Someone said I could go 65 and then south. I will be coming out of Evansville so any suggestions. Don't want high elevations either as my old motorhome might be putting along at 1mph going up.

I missed this -- if you hop on 65 in Bowling Green that's probably your best bet. It's flatter than going through eastern KY, at least.

I65 will bring her down to I10 which will be plenty flat and boring. Just beware that when you head east on I10 in Mobile to hang left when you see the tunnel signs, the right hand lane ends in a brick wall at the end of the merge lane and getting over isn't always easy in a car, much less in a motorhome. 


ETA: And traffic will be brutal around 5/6PM going east, lots of people going home from work.

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 13:59:59 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Mar 18, 2015 13:52:50 GMT -5 Opti said:

It can be. We all have different humor and sarcasm styles.

Logic and odds are lost on others. 

Logic and odds are all well and good until you're working YOURSELF to death for everyone else around you and can't get any help. They aren't much help then. Speaking up and not "letting it go" is the only way to get relief sometimes. If you can't see we're encouraging Pat to make sure she doesn't let it cause her actual health problems, then I can't help you.

I know you are encouraging Pat to not have actual health problems.

I agree with that.

Working herself to death with MIL is partially a choice. She can make choices

to lessen that. Going on motorhome vacations off and on in hopes someone

is going to do something while you are gone is at best a temporary stress reliever.

I don't like advocating things that have long odds of working. Like hoping Pat being

gone will make the cousin or DH solve the sister or MIL issue. Or that neighbor calls

are going to be *the answer*. Cue unicorns with rainbow farts.

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 10:45:36 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Mar 18, 2015 10:39:34 GMT -5 Opti said:

Mid, you are married to a younger and much more modern man. Traditionally yes it was

part of the wife's responsibility to care for her husband's Mom if it came to that. There

are many things in place to help with dementia and they do cost $$. Homecare is an option

if they can not convince them to leave.

Pat and her husband chose to move to Indiana because of his Mom. Her responsibilities are

in circles. Immediate family first, i.e herself, DH, DD and DS. After that circles outward

are somewhat a matter of opinion. Would her own Mother be more or less important than

a grandbaby? The grandchild has parents to take care of it, MIL has Pat's DH and her.

Should it really be treat the elderly with diseases they have no control over like crap because

they aren't as fun as healthy grandkids? Pat got the MIL by marrying DH. The grandkids exist

or not dependent on your kids marrying and reproducing. She actively agreed to MIL.

Grandkids are a choice someone else makes. JMO.

(I don't have the heart to let people crash and burn especially if they have little control

over how it happens.)

So, basically, Pat should suck it up and kill herself with all the stress over this because her husband and his cousin were raised to expect her to? No, just no.

The more I read this comment the more it pisses me off, because its clear logic and my

way of writing is lost on some posters (sometimes).

Did I say anyone should kill themselves over the stress over this?

F* No.

Did I say men were taught that their womenfolk should kill themselves over stress of eldercare?

F* No^2..

Glad you are all ass u ming at my expense.

Not.

[NastyWoman]

Mar 18, 2015 13:33:53 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Mar 18, 2015 12:06:37 GMT -5 Opti said:

I am an optimist, but I was a realist first.

You see me as defending the men. I see me trying to explain posters' wishful thinking won't

change their behavior. I am not going to waste effort being upset or mad at people who won't

change. I'm older than most of you thinking foisting it on the men will accomplish something.

So you being older than most of us means you were taught it's your job as much as the men were taught it's not theirs. Right?  Because after all, people of any generation can't overcome their childhood teachings and do something different.  

Add my  to the statement above and I am calling BS on the whole 40's - 50's guy statement. I am even older then Opti, and I can tell you that, outside of some Asian cultures (first hand observations -> I lived in SE Asia for a decade) I have never seen this kind of behavior from men of my generation (I was born in 1951). Heck even my father wouldn't have done this to my mom and he was from the 20's!
In my opinion the only reason Pat is stuck in this situation is because she is a very kind-hearted person who can't bear to abandon someone who needs help. This is all on Pat's DH's cousin and to some extend on her DH. And DH only gets a partial pass because he and Pat are trying to ensure that their DD will be ok even after they are no longer around to care for her!  The sacrifices they make for DD should not be "eaten up" by spending the money for care on a MIL who in the past was not willing and now is no longer able to take care of her situation in old age.

Lastly, Pat is no longer a spring chicken herself and she really needs to start taking care of herself and enjoying life a little while she still can!

 

[midjd]

Opti, I don't think it's that much of a leap. You said that Pat "actively agreed to MIL" and that she needed to explore her options because it was unlikely that DH or cousin would step up. 

This entire thread has chronicled Pat's exploration of the various options -- a guardianship proceeding, tricking or cajoling MIL into going into assisted living, Adult Protective Services, etc. There simply aren't that many resources available (in Indiana, and especially in Pat's area). 

Now the choices she's left with seem to be -- compromise her own financial security and DD's future care by paying for skilled nursing care for MIL (and likely, in turn, aunt); continue on the current path of stress and constant vigilance over two adults who are legally of sound mind (until a court says otherwise) and refuse to cooperate with requests meant to assist them; or the option I'm in favor of -- just leave. Whatever happens will happen. 

I know you think this is heartless, and I don't think Pat would do it. But I deeply disagree with the implied idea that one's primary responsibility is to a MIL and aunt-in-law who had ample opportunities to save for their own future care, rather than a disabled daughter who had no such opportunity. 

[Chocolate Lover]

Mar 18, 2015 14:38:18 GMT -5 Opti said:

Mar 18, 2015 10:45:36 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

So, basically, Pat should suck it up and kill herself with all the stress over this because her husband and his cousin were raised to expect her to? No, just no.

The more I read this comment the more it pisses me off, because its clear logic and my

way of writing is lost on some posters (sometimes).

Did I say anyone should kill themselves over the stress over this?

F* No.

Did I say men were taught that their womenfolk should kill themselves over stress of eldercare?

F* No^2..

Glad you are all ass u ming at my expense.

Not.

You seem to think that I'm saying she is literally going to kill herself. No, I'm not suggesting that she'll commit suicide. I'm saying the phyical toll of all this well documented stress will kill her if she is required to keep it up.

If you don't understand the phraseology then by all means feel free to ASK instead of ASSume. 

Did ANYONE else posting take what I said literally? Show of hands please.

I'll be more clear in the future if anyone else took it that way, but I suspect it was only Opti

[TheHaitian]

My wife aunt which I love dearly has aged 20 years in the pas decade I have known her taking care of her MIL.

This lady has 5 kids (including aunt husband) that do not lift a finger to help with their mother and they are all successful within their own rights.

But as a dutiful DIL she kept on doing it till it was obvious it was getting too much for her (MIL having dementia and hitting her, escaping from the house and being found in the street, etc).

Her kids were finally forced to put her in a home because it was either their mother or my wife aunt, someone was going to die if it continued. Now that she is in a nursing home, my wife aunt still goes there 3 times a day to make sure she is eating her food, getting cleaned/
showered and none of her kids had visited her once.

That is my story for people that have kids in order for them support them in old age and that MIL was an absolutely bitch to my wife aunt when she was lucid.

Pat needs to worry about her DD and let the family handle the MIL because just in the case of my wife aunt, as long as she keeps doing it none of the kids will see a need to lift a finger.

I had a Dept Mgr that quit to help take care of her father. She was back to work within a year because she said her siblings took it as a sign they did not have to do anything and used her as the help. And she was spending more time away from her husband and daughter. So she rather come to work, make money and like her siblings just take turns helping her father out and contribution her financial share.

Some people just like some husbands have to be forced into taking action. If you are doing everything at home, being super wife and super mom don't bitch that your husband is not lifting a finger. Why should he? You are doing everything...

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 14:47:24 GMT -5 midjd said:

Opti, I don't think it's that much of a leap. You said that Pat "actively agreed to MIL" and that she needed to explore her options because it was unlikely that DH or cousin would step up. 

This entire thread has chronicled Pat's exploration of the various options -- a guardianship proceeding, tricking or cajoling MIL into going into assisted living, Adult Protective Services, etc. There simply aren't that many resources available (in Indiana, and especially in Pat's area). 

Now the choices she's left with seem to be -- compromise her own financial security and DD's future care by paying for skilled nursing care for MIL (and likely, in turn, aunt); continue on the current path of stress and constant vigilance over two adults who are legally of sound mind (until a court says otherwise) and refuse to cooperate with requests meant to assist them; or the option I'm in favor of -- just leave. Whatever happens will happen. 

I know you think this is heartless, and I don't think Pat would do it. But I deeply disagree with the implied idea that one's primary responsibility is to a MIL and aunt-in-law who had ample opportunities to save for their own future care, rather than a disabled daughter who had no such opportunity. 

Here lies the problem of reading other people's posts and assuming what they mean instead

of actually asking. She agreed to MIL being part of her family by marrying DH. She agreed

to come back to Indiana to watch over MIL a decision presumably agreed to by both DH and her.

She doesn't need to compromise her own financial security, but that could be on the table

somewhat based on DH and the fact it is his Mom. She (and DH?) are paying Mom's bills.

If they start spending some of Mom's money on at home care so be it. When the money runs

out and the mobile is sold or lost to property taxes, Medicaid assisted living or nursing home care

is going to be the answer anyway. Might as well go there sooner than later.

I never said what Pat's primary responsibility is really, except that DD came first. (Should I

go back and bold it?) My bottom line  is this MIL issue

needs to be solved and hoping that neighbors or cousin are going to do that is borderline crazy.

Pat is not taking the opportunities that come up to convince MIL and DH, MIL needs to move

out of the mobile now to assisted living or better. Instead she's giving MIL money, finding

money, finding car keys, finding house keys, saying 'Oh everyone needs some help'.

These are missed opportunities to the promised land of not taking care of MIL daily.

If she isn't willing to take the car keys forever yet, keep them at her/Pat's house. Start

documenting memory lapses about keys and important stuff on paper. Tell MIL she

isn't capable of living on her own and she needs to pick where to move to because Pat

is not up to doing daily care anymore. Not sure if it is Pat or DH talking themselves into

MIL would be OK if it weren't for sister, but stopping that too would be a step in the right direction.

MIL sounds way worse than my Mom was before she was convinced to move into Assisted living

which had to wait on the sale of her home. I think its only MIL's lifestyle and small town

that has saved her from bad things that happened to my Mom. At this point I'm starting my

own pool on Dehydration, broken hip, or accident with the car or in the mobile.

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 14:57:27 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Mar 18, 2015 14:38:18 GMT -5 Opti said:

The more I read this comment the more it pisses me off, because its clear logic and my

way of writing is lost on some posters (sometimes).

Did I say anyone should kill themselves over the stress over this?

F* No.

Did I say men were taught that their womenfolk should kill themselves over stress of eldercare?

F* No^2..

Glad you are all ass u ming at my expense.

Not.

You seem to think that I'm saying she is literally going to kill herself. No, I'm not suggesting that she'll commit suicide. I'm saying the phyical toll of all this well documented stress will kill her if she is required to keep it up.

If you don't understand the phraseology then by all means feel free to ASK instead of ASSume. 

Did ANYONE else posting take what I said literally? Show of hands please.

I'll be more clear in the future if anyone else took it that way, but I suspect it was only Opti

Damn, you assume so well.

I was only re-using your words.

I was not thinking about suicide at all.

Just that no one, including me, expected her to overwork herself on MIL's behalf.

[swamp]

Yes, it's that easy to deal with a person with dementia. They'll see the list and have an epiphany that they can no longer care for themselves. Yes, that's exactly how it works.

[Chocolate Lover]

Mar 18, 2015 15:20:05 GMT -5 Opti said:

Mar 18, 2015 14:57:27 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

You seem to think that I'm saying she is literally going to kill herself. No, I'm not suggesting that she'll commit suicide. I'm saying the phyical toll of all this well documented stress will kill her if she is required to keep it up.

If you don't understand the phraseology then by all means feel free to ASK instead of ASSume. 

Did ANYONE else posting take what I said literally? Show of hands please.

I'll be more clear in the future if anyone else took it that way, but I suspect it was only Opti

Damn, you assume so well.

I was only re-using your words.

I was not thinking about suicide at all.

Just that no one, including me, expected her to overwork herself on MIL's behalf.

You clearly expect her to overwork herself and spend the money her DH has worked so long to earn for their DD's future care on MIL instead. I'm not going back to quote. It's clear to everyone but you. 

[Chocolate Lover]

I thought they were paying MIL's bills with MIL's money, just doing the actual work of getting them paid. 

Did I ASSume again or is my reading comprehension that good? Only Pat can tell us and I hope she's in her motorhome on the road and unable to answer

[Opti]

Pat needs to worry about her DD and let the family handle the MIL because just in the case of my wife aunt, as long as she keeps doing it none of the kids will see a need to lift a finger.

I don't remember, does MIL have kids besides Pat's DH?

[swamp]

Mar 18, 2015 15:24:11 GMT -5 Opti said:

Pat needs to worry about her DD and let the family handle the MIL because just in the case of my wife aunt, as long as she keeps doing it none of the kids will see a need to lift a finger.

I don't remember, does MIL have kids besides Pat's DH?

no

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 15:21:05 GMT -5 swamp said:

Yes, it's that easy to deal with a person with dementia. They'll see the list and have an epiphany that they can no longer care for themselves. Yes, that's exactly how it works.

Wow.

Ummm, the list isn't for MIL.

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 15:22:40 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Mar 18, 2015 15:20:05 GMT -5 Opti said:

Damn, you assume so well.

I was only re-using your words.

I was not thinking about suicide at all.

Just that no one, including me, expected her to overwork herself on MIL's behalf.

You clearly expect her to overwork herself and spend the money her DH has worked so long to earn for their DD's future care on MIL instead. I'm not going back to quote. It's clear to everyone but you. 

Its clear to everyone because you all have the same or similar biases.

I know I don't think that. I also know I didn't explicitly write that.

I think, but do not know, you are all assuming I think she should overwork

herself because I am not telling her yes go on the motorhome trip, you need

a rest, it will all work out. I could be wrong. I could be reading into it like you all

are doing to me. Perhaps you just think she needs a break and want to support

that.

I support her finally fixing this MIL problem once and for all. If all we do is

support her taking trips in the motorhome to escape MIL, the problem will continue.

DH's money is going to fund motorhome escapes from what I can tell. I think

MIL money funds MIL's care.

[Opti]

Mar 18, 2015 15:24:05 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

I thought they were paying MIL's bills with MIL's money, just doing the actual work of getting them paid. 

Did I ASSume again or is my reading comprehension that good? Only Pat can tell us and I hope she's in her motorhome on the road and unable to answer

Me too. I wrote something, you understood it and agreed.

I better buy a lottery ticket before my quota of miracles runs out.