Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2014 16:14:55 GMT -5
No it is not. And yet we expect our ordinary everyday citizens who would not know any better to not do the airplane trip too. This shows why protocols must be accurate and enforced. Neither has happened in this hospital from day one when Mr. Duncan walked in in the first time.
Government is going to have one chance on this issue, and time to take it seriously. I know this should not turn into a political football, but if I was a Democrat in a close state race for the Senate, I would immediately come out and demand some protocols be enforced, and break from the President and his stance of laze faire on this issue. Elections are only a couple of weeks off, and if this disease spreads, Democrats could be held accountable to the President's stand, or lack of one on this issue.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 16:15:32 GMT -5
Very, very stupid. She should lose her license as far as I'm concerned. If she didn't vomit, or have diarrhoea on the plane (and didn't sneeze or spit directly into someone's face) the passengers who flew with her will be fine. That's not the point. She knew what she was doing and did it anyway. She's got no damned business even being a nurse! Makes me livid! I think you're forgetting all of those people in the airport with her. No. I'm not forgetting them. They weren't in any danger. I'm not going to argue this with you.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2014 16:23:29 GMT -5
ok, I am officially paranoid. My grand daughter and great grandson was to fly home from Kansas City for Christmas holidays. My wife and I called her today, and said it might not be a good idea to do. She agreed. She said if a nurse will not stay home and potentially infect others, how do we stop anyone from doing it. We were surprised she agreed with us. She said she did not want to chance a one year old in the lobby of two different airports in two trips, back and forth. I am driving out there, and drive back with them the next day. Yes, we know we are probably over reacting, and we could come in contact at any restaurant or rest stop along the way, but still...............Who knows, if the Ebola is stopped here, we might change our minds...........
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2014 16:25:08 GMT -5
So in case anyone's keeping score here are the current 'protocol violations' with the handful of cases/suspected cases in the US: 1. Patient zero lied on his health screen to fly to US 2. Nurse or Doctor does not act on Travel Answer by patient zero... patient sent home 3. Nowhere did I read that patient zero tell EMS crew about possible ebola *I'll concede this one if someone knows different 4. Patient zero's family forced to live with soiled articles for several days. Nobody removes it 5. Patient zero's family breaks quarantine 6. News woman breaks quarantine 7. Hospital staff either not given or not wearing protective gear -This one still seems to be up for debate 8. Nurse #2 breaks monitoring guidelines -boards commercial plan 9. Nurse #2 boards commercial flight while showing symptoms of disease. Knows herself to be possibly infected and in a higher risk group So all of this with just 7* known cases being treated in the US. I think I have this number right... but correct me if I'm wrong. So far we do not have a very good track record with this disease. And yet you and I are over reacting, when the professionals are not reacting (correctly or otherwise) at all.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 15, 2014 16:27:50 GMT -5
... I know this should not turn into a political football, but ... Participated in a great workshop in which one thing we did was gave one sharp clap on the word "but" as a reminder that the person was saying "I am now going to negate everything I have said prior to that word."
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 16:28:14 GMT -5
ok, I am officially paranoid.
Yes, you are.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 15, 2014 16:33:29 GMT -5
... I am driving out there, and drive back with them the next day. ... Pick your risk.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 16:34:43 GMT -5
Patient zero didn't lie on his health screen before flying to the US. Patient zero didn't know the pregnant woman he assisted had Ebola. He thought she was sick because she was pregnant. That's why he didn't tell the EMS crew about possible Ebola. He didn't know. Patient zero's family is still, as far as we know, virus-free. They've got another two days until the end of the 21 day window.
The staff who didn't pick up on the fact that patient zero had come here from an Ebola-infected area blew it big time. No question about that, just as there's no question clean-up should have been started immediately with the family. The good news is, the family is still virus-free.
The rest of what you're talking about (other than the staff at the hospital not having the proper equipment which is another big strike against that hospital) is individuals doing what they ain't supposed to do. What, exactly, do you propose we do about that? Shall we lock 'em all up and only let 'em out to care for patients? Shall we shoot 'em? Shall we put a guard on 'em? What? Their actions don't have anything to do with "the professionals" - who are, indeed, reacting.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 16:36:01 GMT -5
... I am driving out there, and drive back with them the next day. ... Pick your risk. 30,800 people died in cars last year. i'll stick with ebola.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 16:38:51 GMT -5
Right now, I'm tempted to gather up the talking heads of the media and ship 'em all down to that freakin' hospital!
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 15, 2014 16:40:22 GMT -5
I just heard on the radio Indiana is expecting 586,659,625 new cases of Ebola over the next 4 weeks. No link yet. Unsubstantiated rumor at this time.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 16:42:41 GMT -5
Please, let's not politicize this. If you must bring politics into it, start a thread on the Politics board to talk about all the many, varied, and even imaginary connections our government has to this mess. Here, we're talking about lousy hospitals, stupid people, and the dumb press that stirs, and stirs, and stirs.
Thanks.
mmhmm, Administrator
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 16:43:55 GMT -5
So in case anyone's keeping score here are the current 'protocol violations' with the handful of cases/suspected cases in the US: 1. Patient zero lied on his health screen to fly to US; false2. Nurse or Doctor does not act on Travel Answer by patient zero... patient sent home. nurse was not responsible, her supervisor was. she asked the question.3. Nowhere did I read that patient zero tell EMS crew about possible ebola *I'll concede this one if someone knows different. because he didn't know he had it.4. Patient zero's family forced to live with soiled articles for several days. Nobody removes it. i hold Texas totally responsible for that.5. Patient zero's family breaks quarantine. huh? when was that?6. News woman breaks quarantine. what are you talking about?7. Hospital staff either not given or not wearing protective gear -This one still seems to be up for debate. not given, as far as i can tell.8. Nurse #2 breaks monitoring guidelines -boards commercial plan (sic)- 9. Nurse #2 boards commercial flight while showing symptoms of disease. Knows herself to be possibly infected and in a higher risk group. So all of this with just 7* known cases being treated in the US. I think I have this number right... but correct me if I'm wrong. So far we do not have a very good track record with this disease. only 8 and 9 are completely true, ime.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2014 17:00:51 GMT -5
So in case anyone's keeping score here are the current 'protocol violations' with the handful of cases/suspected cases in the US: 6. News woman breaks quarantine. what are you talking about? Completely different situation deadline.com/2014/10/nancy-snyderman-ebola-quarantine-mandatory-nbc-news-850278/#A news crew was under "voluntary" quarantine. They broke it & then were placed under "mandatory" quarantine.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 17:05:09 GMT -5
I can't speak for Sroo, but this one case has demonstrated that people will do stupid things and there becomes a ripple effect of people potentially exposed to the disease unnecessarily.
It is especially worrisome that the people we trust to handle this kind of thing as professionals, failed to do so properly, in their professional capacities AND in their personal lives (the nurse that traveled after she became symptomatic).
As this unfolds, I'm leaning toward Sroo's side that there is cause for concern. The CDC can come up with a zillion protocols, but still, we must rely on individuals to follow them. And one thing I've read repeatedly on these boards over the years is the common idea that most people are idiots.
It is not very reassuring to read about how this whole situation has been handled. Maybe it was just a higher percentage of idiots involved in this particular case.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2014 17:08:06 GMT -5
My bad, I quoted the wrong one. I meant #6. Will correct.
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Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2014 17:21:29 GMT -5
I can't speak for Sroo, but this one case has demonstrated that people will do stupid things and there becomes a ripple effect of people potentially exposed to the disease unnecessarily. It is especially worrisome that the people we trust to handle this kind of thing as professionals, failed to do so properly, in their professional capacities AND in their personal lives (the nurse that traveled after she became symptomatic). As this unfolds, I'm leaning toward Sroo's side that there is cause for concern. The CDC can come up with a zillion protocols, but still, we must rely on individuals to follow them. And one thing I've read repeatedly on these boards over the years is the common idea that most people are idiots. It is not very reassuring to read about how this whole situation has been handled. Maybe it was just a higher percentage of idiots involved in this particular case. I think people are just idiots. I will jump on the cause for concern bandwagon if someone in the general public gets ill - passenger on a plane or whatnot. If that starts happening, then we have big problems. As of right now, it appears the disease is not very contagious at all until the very late stages & at that point people will be in the hospital, not wandering around in the streets. It seems like a bigger concern would be if this disease mutates at all. If it becomes more contagious in the early stages, makes most people less ill, or extends how long you are just a little sick, we could easily be screwed. Right now the way the disease works is one of the biggest factors in our favor.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 17:25:55 GMT -5
As of right now, it appears the disease is not very contagious at all until the very late stages & at that point people will be in the hospital, not wandering around in the streets. It seems like a bigger concern would be if this disease mutates at all. If it becomes more contagious in the early stages, makes most people less ill, or extends how long you are just a little sick, we could easily be screwed. Right now the way the disease works is one of the biggest factors in our favor.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 17:27:39 GMT -5
I can't speak for Sroo, but this one case has demonstrated that people will do stupid things and there becomes a ripple effect of people potentially exposed to the disease unnecessarily. It is especially worrisome that the people we trust to handle this kind of thing as professionals, failed to do so properly, in their professional capacities AND in their personal lives (the nurse that traveled after she became symptomatic). As this unfolds, I'm leaning toward Sroo's side that there is cause for concern. The CDC can come up with a zillion protocols, but still, we must rely on individuals to follow them. And one thing I've read repeatedly on these boards over the years is the common idea that most people are idiots. It is not very reassuring to read about how this whole situation has been handled. Maybe it was just a higher percentage of idiots involved in this particular case. I think people are just idiots. I will jump on the cause for concern bandwagon if someone in the general public gets ill - passenger on a plane or whatnot. If that starts happening, then we have big problems. As of right now, it appears the disease is not very contagious at all until the very late stages & at that point people will be in the hospital, not wandering around in the streets. It seems like a bigger concern would be if this disease mutates at all. If it becomes more contagious in the early stages, makes most people less ill, or extends how long you are just a little sick, we could easily be screwed. Right now the way the disease works is one of the biggest factors in our favor. agreed. but i think the odds of mutation are very low. the disease has been around 38 years, and is symptomatically almost identical during that time, meaning that it has not had much variance/evolution/adaptation during that time. now, this doesn't mean that something wild could NOT happen. it totally could. but i think the odds are rather low, don't you?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 17:29:38 GMT -5
I can't speak for Sroo, but this one case has demonstrated that people will do stupid things and there becomes a ripple effect of people potentially exposed to the disease unnecessarily. It is especially worrisome that the people we trust to handle this kind of thing as professionals, failed to do so properly, in their professional capacities AND in their personal lives (the nurse that traveled after she became symptomatic). As this unfolds, I'm leaning toward Sroo's side that there is cause for concern. The CDC can come up with a zillion protocols, but still, we must rely on individuals to follow them. And one thing I've read repeatedly on these boards over the years is the common idea that most people are idiots. It is not very reassuring to read about how this whole situation has been handled. Maybe it was just a higher percentage of idiots involved in this particular case. i think it could be one very lacsidaysical (sic) hospital. but i will admit that is a fairly "soft" bet on my part.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 17:31:30 GMT -5
I can't speak for Sroo, but this one case has demonstrated that people will do stupid things and there becomes a ripple effect of people potentially exposed to the disease unnecessarily. It is especially worrisome that the people we trust to handle this kind of thing as professionals, failed to do so properly, in their professional capacities AND in their personal lives (the nurse that traveled after she became symptomatic). As this unfolds, I'm leaning toward Sroo's side that there is cause for concern. The CDC can come up with a zillion protocols, but still, we must rely on individuals to follow them. And one thing I've read repeatedly on these boards over the years is the common idea that most people are idiots. It is not very reassuring to read about how this whole situation has been handled. Maybe it was just a higher percentage of idiots involved in this particular case. I think people are just idiots. I will jump on the cause for concern bandwagon if someone in the general public gets ill - passenger on a plane or whatnot. If that starts happening, then we have big problems. As of right now, it appears the disease is not very contagious at all until the very late stages & at that point people will be in the hospital, not wandering around in the streets. It seems like a bigger concern would be if this disease mutates at all. If it becomes more contagious in the early stages, makes most people less ill, or extends how long you are just a little sick, we could easily be screwed. Right now the way the disease works is one of the biggest factors in our favor. So do you think the nurse that flew to visit her family made an informed decision, based on thoughts similar to yours, and it was ok because if she had it (which she does), it was still in early stages? I don't think it was ok. Nor do I want people in similar situations to think its ok to go galivanting around because they think they're not really contagious until they're too sick to keep going.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2014 17:32:41 GMT -5
I think people are just idiots. I will jump on the cause for concern bandwagon if someone in the general public gets ill - passenger on a plane or whatnot. If that starts happening, then we have big problems. As of right now, it appears the disease is not very contagious at all until the very late stages & at that point people will be in the hospital, not wandering around in the streets. It seems like a bigger concern would be if this disease mutates at all. If it becomes more contagious in the early stages, makes most people less ill, or extends how long you are just a little sick, we could easily be screwed. Right now the way the disease works is one of the biggest factors in our favor. agreed. but i think the odds of mutation are very low. the disease has been around 38 years, and is symptomatically almost identical during that time, meaning that it has not had much variance/evolution/adaptation during that time. now, this doesn't mean that something wild could NOT happen. it totally could. but i think the odds are rather low, don't you? I honestly have no idea. I know colds mutate constantly, that is why you can't become just immune to the cold. And flu mutates, that is why there are so many strains & you need a new flu shot each year. But, then I suppose other diseases like measles & chicken pox never seem to mutate, so we can have a vaccine that protects us for life. So I suppose ebola might fall into the latter category. I know just enough to pretend like I know what i am talking about (and then spread unwarranted fear & hysteria)
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 17:34:58 GMT -5
I think people are just idiots. I will jump on the cause for concern bandwagon if someone in the general public gets ill - passenger on a plane or whatnot. If that starts happening, then we have big problems. As of right now, it appears the disease is not very contagious at all until the very late stages & at that point people will be in the hospital, not wandering around in the streets. It seems like a bigger concern would be if this disease mutates at all. If it becomes more contagious in the early stages, makes most people less ill, or extends how long you are just a little sick, we could easily be screwed. Right now the way the disease works is one of the biggest factors in our favor. So do you think the nurse that flew to visit her family made an informed decision, based on thoughts similar to yours, and it was ok because if she had it (which she does), it was still in early stages? I don't think it was ok. Nor do I want people in similar situations to think its ok to go galivanting around because they think they're not really contagious until they're too sick to keep going. She probably did. And no, it's not okay for anyone to do, even if their specific risk was very low to nil (as in the case of the NBC crew going for takeout) because it sets a bad example for people who may not be as medically knowledgeable and make even riskier assumptions. I hear they've made a 'do not board' list for those being monitored as a result.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2014 17:35:03 GMT -5
I think people are just idiots. I will jump on the cause for concern bandwagon if someone in the general public gets ill - passenger on a plane or whatnot. If that starts happening, then we have big problems. As of right now, it appears the disease is not very contagious at all until the very late stages & at that point people will be in the hospital, not wandering around in the streets. It seems like a bigger concern would be if this disease mutates at all. If it becomes more contagious in the early stages, makes most people less ill, or extends how long you are just a little sick, we could easily be screwed. Right now the way the disease works is one of the biggest factors in our favor. So do you think the nurse that flew to visit her family made an informed decision, based on thoughts similar to yours, and it was ok because if she had it (which she does), it was still in early stages? I don't think it was ok. Nor do I want people in similar situations to think its ok to go galivanting around because they think they're not really contagious until they're too sick to keep going. No, I think she falls into the category of idiots. Who the hell visits family if there is a chance you may have a deadly disease? Even not breaking protocol, that is pretty stupid. Although I am willing to bet that noone in the general public gets infected due to her stupidity. So, while stupid, I don't think it will cause this to turn into an epidemic.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 17:35:11 GMT -5
I can't speak for Sroo, but this one case has demonstrated that people will do stupid things and there becomes a ripple effect of people potentially exposed to the disease unnecessarily. It is especially worrisome that the people we trust to handle this kind of thing as professionals, failed to do so properly, in their professional capacities AND in their personal lives (the nurse that traveled after she became symptomatic). As this unfolds, I'm leaning toward Sroo's side that there is cause for concern. The CDC can come up with a zillion protocols, but still, we must rely on individuals to follow them. And one thing I've read repeatedly on these boards over the years is the common idea that most people are idiots. It is not very reassuring to read about how this whole situation has been handled. Maybe it was just a higher percentage of idiots involved in this particular case. The thing is, anybody with eyes to see and/or ears to hear is aware of this situation now. Common sense will serve very well for the individual. I'm not worried about brushing up against somebody in the grocery store, or sitting in an airplane seat. You can bet, however, if I saw someone vomiting or exuding other body fluids, I'm not going to go anywhere near them without full protection. That's just the way it is. If the average citizen will just go about their business and let the first responders handle their business, the hospitals handle their business, and the CDC handle their business, things will go quite well. First responders and hospitals are on the dime and must get their stuff together and keep it together. Ebola isn't out there waiting to jump on you and/or I.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 17:35:57 GMT -5
I can't speak for Sroo, but this one case has demonstrated that people will do stupid things and there becomes a ripple effect of people potentially exposed to the disease unnecessarily. It is especially worrisome that the people we trust to handle this kind of thing as professionals, failed to do so properly, in their professional capacities AND in their personal lives (the nurse that traveled after she became symptomatic). As this unfolds, I'm leaning toward Sroo's side that there is cause for concern. The CDC can come up with a zillion protocols, but still, we must rely on individuals to follow them. And one thing I've read repeatedly on these boards over the years is the common idea that most people are idiots. It is not very reassuring to read about how this whole situation has been handled. Maybe it was just a higher percentage of idiots involved in this particular case. i think it could be one very lacsidaysical (sic) hospital. but i will admit that is a fairly "soft" bet on my part. There may be more like that! This mess, however, should have given them a wake-up call. They'd best heed it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 17:56:18 GMT -5
I can't speak for Sroo, but this one case has demonstrated that people will do stupid things and there becomes a ripple effect of people potentially exposed to the disease unnecessarily. It is especially worrisome that the people we trust to handle this kind of thing as professionals, failed to do so properly, in their professional capacities AND in their personal lives (the nurse that traveled after she became symptomatic). As this unfolds, I'm leaning toward Sroo's side that there is cause for concern. The CDC can come up with a zillion protocols, but still, we must rely on individuals to follow them. And one thing I've read repeatedly on these boards over the years is the common idea that most people are idiots. It is not very reassuring to read about how this whole situation has been handled. Maybe it was just a higher percentage of idiots involved in this particular case. The thing is, anybody with eyes to see and/or ears to hear is aware of this situation now. Common sense will serve very well for the individual. I'm not worried about brushing up against somebody in the grocery store, or sitting in an airplane seat. You can bet, however, if I saw someone vomiting or exuding other body fluids, I'm not going to go anywhere near them without full protection. That's just the way it is. If the average citizen will just go about their business and let the first responders handle their business, the hospitals handle their business, and the CDC handle their business, things will go quite well. First responders and hospitals are on the dime and must get their stuff together and keep it together. Ebola isn't out there waiting to jump on you and/or I. Well, I stay away from people that are vomiting, bleeding and whatnot anyway. I'm one of those people that doesn't even like to be in close proximity to an uncovered cough. I'm not panicky just yet. Just concerned about the incompetence evident in so many aspects of what has happened in Dallas and wondering just how common this kind of ignorance is. As we continue to go about our business and trust the people you mentioned to handle it, the point is that some employees of this particular hospital have not handled their business very well at all. I can only hope that it serves as a warning for other health care professionals to bring their A-game if/when they have a Mr. Duncan show up at their facility.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 17:59:47 GMT -5
The thing is, anybody with eyes to see and/or ears to hear is aware of this situation now. Common sense will serve very well for the individual. I'm not worried about brushing up against somebody in the grocery store, or sitting in an airplane seat. You can bet, however, if I saw someone vomiting or exuding other body fluids, I'm not going to go anywhere near them without full protection. That's just the way it is. If the average citizen will just go about their business and let the first responders handle their business, the hospitals handle their business, and the CDC handle their business, things will go quite well. First responders and hospitals are on the dime and must get their stuff together and keep it together. Ebola isn't out there waiting to jump on you and/or I. Well, I stay away from people that are vomiting, bleeding and whatnot anyway. I'm one of those people that doesn't even like to be in close proximity to an uncovered cough. I'm not panicky just yet. Just concerned about the incompetence evident in so many aspects of what has happened in Dallas and wondering just how common this kind of ignorance is. As we continue to go about our business and trust the people you mentioned to handle it, the point is that some employees of this particular hospital have not handled their business very well at all. I can only hope that it serves as a warning for other health care professionals to bring their A-game if/when they have a Mr. Duncan show up at their facility. As do I, Pink Cashmere! This is a wake-up call that must be heeded by health care systems world-wide. It's not that the guy on the street need be afraid to leave his house at this time. It's that we need to be diligent in giving care to those who contract infectious diseases, no matter what those infectious diseases are. We need to take care for the patient, ourselves, our families and the world around us.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 9:40:57 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 18:09:02 GMT -5
The thing is, anybody with eyes to see and/or ears to hear is aware of this situation now. Common sense will serve very well for the individual. I'm not worried about brushing up against somebody in the grocery store, or sitting in an airplane seat. You can bet, however, if I saw someone vomiting or exuding other body fluids, I'm not going to go anywhere near them without full protection. That's just the way it is. If the average citizen will just go about their business and let the first responders handle their business, the hospitals handle their business, and the CDC handle their business, things will go quite well. First responders and hospitals are on the dime and must get their stuff together and keep it together. Ebola isn't out there waiting to jump on you and/or I. Well, I stay away from people that are vomiting, bleeding and whatnot anyway. I'm one of those people that doesn't even like to be in close proximity to an uncovered cough. Especially at the airport and on planes! Ew! Apparently, these people are going around touching a lot of stuff and surfaces at the airport that I'd never dream of touching, Ebola or no Ebola. Given the amount of false alarms at airports I keep hearing about these days, I doubt anyone can so much as sneeze or cough without the plane being met by a full hazmat team (and who knows what before they land!). There's an overabundance of overabundance of caution on flights right now, so it's probably the best time to actually fly and expect a clean plane.
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djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 18:14:06 GMT -5
Well, I stay away from people that are vomiting, bleeding and whatnot anyway. I'm one of those people that doesn't even like to be in close proximity to an uncovered cough. Especially at the airport and on planes! Ew! Apparently, these people are going around touching a lot of stuff and surfaces at the airport that I'd never dream of touching, Ebola or no Ebola. Given the amount of false alarms at airports I keep hearing about these days, I doubt anyone can so much as sneeze or cough without the plane being met by a full hazmat team (and who knows what before they land!). There's an overabundance of overabundance of caution on flights right now, so it's probably the best time to actually fly and expect a clean plane. i know that some people will dismiss this as me being all SUNNY, but this is one of the main reasons i am not really worried about ebola in the US. we are FANATICAL about cleanliness here. seriously. people sanitize their f*&king PORCHES in the US. it is crazy how clean we are.
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