djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:42:53 GMT -5
They are not flying out of country to escape. red herring. i never said flying, VB.If they could afford it they would. Will they migrate out of country? Travel ban des not have to occur. Of course. Where there is a will, there is a way.
precisely. dude- YOU are making the red herring, not me. travel bans are just that = NO TRAVEL. that means planes, yes. it also means busses, cars, trains, and foot. that is not a red herring, that is, in fact, what a TRAVEL BAN is. capice?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 12:42:55 GMT -5
There you go using your straw man argument that you always use against posters here huh? no. that is actually what happens. you can't stop people from running, VB. here is my point tho: travel bans mean that health workers that go to afflicted areas can't leave. what impacts do you think that has on the "epidemic"? In West Africa not allowing people to leave infected areas has slowed the spread of the disease. 21 days under quarantine with no symptoms and they are free to leave.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:44:31 GMT -5
Umm, she wasn't infectious on Monday. Taking the plane out of service is over-kill, but with the press sensationalizing and so many people deciding they're in imminent danger, I can understand why it's being done. As for the stock market, I'm not overly concerned with stocks in relation to this. I'm more concerned about those who are ill and those who are not ill but think they're going to be. I, personally, wouldn't be the least concerned if I'd sat in the same seat as she sat in on Monday. Who the hell says "Gee I might have Ebola... Hey I'm going to fly to visit my family!" red herring. that is not what happened in the case of the one victim of ebola in the US.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 12:44:40 GMT -5
huh? no. that is actually what happens. you can't stop people from running, VB. here is my point tho: travel bans mean that health workers that go to afflicted areas can't leave. what impacts do you think that has on the "epidemic"? In West Africa not allowing people to leave infected areas has slowed the spread of the disease. 21 days under quarantine with no symptoms and they are free to leave.
If a person can get a document in Liberia for $40 saying that their family member who just died did not have Ebola simply so they can keep the body, do you really think that no one will make false travel documents that say they they haven't been in Liberia in the last 21 days?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:45:12 GMT -5
huh? no. that is actually what happens. you can't stop people from running, VB. here is my point tho: travel bans mean that health workers that go to afflicted areas can't leave. what impacts do you think that has on the "epidemic"? In West Africa not allowing people to leave infected areas has slowed the spread of the disease. 21 days under quarantine with no symptoms and they are free to leave.
link?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:46:06 GMT -5
In West Africa not allowing people to leave infected areas has slowed the spread of the disease. 21 days under quarantine with no symptoms and they are free to leave.
If a person can get a document in Liberia for $40 saying that their family member who just died did not have Ebola simply so they can keep the body, do you really think that no one will make false travel documents that say they they haven't been in Liberia in the last 21 days? moreover- if someone leaves, and they are undocumented, what are the chances that they will EVER come clean, before they die?
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Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2014 12:47:39 GMT -5
huh? no. that is actually what happens. you can't stop people from running, VB. here is my point tho: travel bans mean that health workers that go to afflicted areas can't leave. what impacts do you think that has on the "epidemic"? In West Africa not allowing people to leave infected areas has slowed the spread of the disease. 21 days under quarantine with no symptoms and they are free to leave.
In West Africa the disease in running rampant in certain areas. Totally different than what is going on here.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 12:48:07 GMT -5
I am not asking for 100%. I'm asking for eliminating risk in every way possible. Importing ebola victims when we are not prepared to treat them without spreading the disease further is not a good plan.
So we get prepared to treat them and we act like grownups about it. Nigeria managed to do it, but are we saying that we're incapable of doing what Nigeria could with no warning? Well let's get prepared then. We are not at this time prepared according to the experts and the results from our one and only import. Until then we don't need anymore imported cases if we are in anyway able to avoid them. Which we can.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 12:50:29 GMT -5
In West Africa not allowing people to leave infected areas has slowed the spread of the disease. 21 days under quarantine with no symptoms and they are free to leave.
If a person can get a document in Liberia for $40 saying that their family member who just died did not have Ebola simply so they can keep the body, do you really think that no one will make false travel documents that say they they haven't been in Liberia in the last 21 days? I think I have already said I am not looking for 100% guarantee that no one with ebola gets in. But there, I repeated it for you.
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Post by b2r on Oct 15, 2014 12:55:29 GMT -5
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 12:56:13 GMT -5
So we get prepared to treat them and we act like grownups about it. Nigeria managed to do it, but are we saying that we're incapable of doing what Nigeria could with no warning? Well let's get prepared then. We are not at this time prepared according to the experts and the results from our one and only import. Until then we don't need anymore imported cases if we are in anyway able to avoid them. Which we can. If our stated goal is to protect our own people, we must act in the interests of eradicating the outbreak. Travel bans are unmanageable and work against that goal. If one of the most equipped and modern healthcare systems in the world announces that it's so bad at preventing an infectious disease and so afraid of it that it cannot risk even one single case from entering its borders, this problem will go from bad to worse globally for many reasons. We need to address the holes that this isolated case has made obvious, not hide our heads in the sand and stay unprepared for the next viral problem.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 12:59:02 GMT -5
If a person can get a document in Liberia for $40 saying that their family member who just died did not have Ebola simply so they can keep the body, do you really think that no one will make false travel documents that say they they haven't been in Liberia in the last 21 days? I think I have already said I am not looking for 100% guarantee that no one with ebola gets in. But there, I repeated it for you.
So we agree that a travel ban with the current outbreak levels cannot guarantee safety for all citizens. And we already have a very small incident level. But if a travel ban (if it's even possible to implement one) makes the outbreak worse in its home countries or spreads it, you've potentially increased the risk to those same citizens.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 13:05:43 GMT -5
So we agree that a travel ban with the current outbreak levels cannot guarantee safety for all citizens. And we already have a very small incident level. But if a travel ban (if it's even possible to implement one) makes the outbreak worse in its home countries or spreads it, you've potentially increased the risk to those same citizens. Why stop there? Why don't we start importing Ebola patients for care? If our rates of survival are so much better, why don't we just fling open the doors and bring them here. It seems to me we could very easily get less than 10000 people on a plane. I'm sure we have the hospital beds available. Wouldn't that stop it even quicker? Maybe we should indeed help out more with our better resources. Seriously, though. We cannot say that our goal is to protect people and then actively work against eradication of the disease, as evidence suggests a travel ban would do. We can stay neutral in our efforts (not making the situation better or worse) or try to help, if we state that our own safety is our goal.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 13:25:19 GMT -5
So we agree that a travel ban with the current outbreak levels cannot guarantee safety for all citizens. And we already have a very small incident level. But if a travel ban (if it's even possible to implement one) makes the outbreak worse in its home countries or spreads it, you've potentially increased the risk to those same citizens. Why stop there? Why don't we start importing Ebola patients for care? um...Sroo....we HAVE. you know that, right?If our rates of survival are so much better, why don't we just fling open the doors and bring them here. It seems to me we could very easily get less than 10000 people on a plane. I'm sure we have the hospital beds available. Wouldn't that stop it even quicker? quite possibly, actually. not the worst idea i can think of, for sure. but we could also set up isolation wards THERE. probably easier, overall. and less risky. before you jump all over me about that last term, by less risky i mean closer to 0% risk than 1% risk. that sort of less risky.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 13:26:40 GMT -5
that's right. your failure to understand why is not my problem. the information is out there should you choose to access it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 13:28:13 GMT -5
Well let's get prepared then. We are not at this time prepared according to the experts and the results from our one and only import. Until then we don't need anymore imported cases if we are in anyway able to avoid them. Which we can. If our stated goal is to protect our own people, we must act in the interests of eradicating the outbreak. Travel bans are unmanageable and work against that goal. If one of the most equipped and modern healthcare systems in the world announces that it's so bad at preventing an infectious disease and so afraid of it that it cannot risk even one single case from entering its borders, this problem will go from bad to worse globally for many reasons. We need to address the holes that this isolated case has made obvious, not hide our heads in the sand and stay unprepared for the next viral problem. I am not against treating health care workers that have gotten sick in Africa here. They deserve to be treated here, they are contained, we know they are sick and we are prepared for them. There is a difference between that and what Duncan did. He came here possibly not even knowing he was sick. Two more people are sick because of him. A 21 day quarantine for Duncan would have prevented that outcome. I don't want to bring in any more Duncans and believe we should take every precaution to make sure more Duncans don't come in. The disease needs to be isolated where it is. To isolate in more areas rather than in fewer areas is just stupid imo.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 13:28:13 GMT -5
So my next question... when did the fever start? Let's say for arguments sake this person took her temperature 10 minutes before the flight @ 5pm (totally making up this time) and it was normal. She then took it at 8 am the next morning and it was elevated. When did the fever start? Did it start at 7:55 am or did it start at 5:05 pm? is a person infectious the SECOND they have a fever? i am not being a smartass, i genuinely don't know. do you?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 13:29:50 GMT -5
red herring. that is not what happened in the case of the one victim of ebola in the US. I'm talking about the idiot that flew to Akron. Not a red herring thanks for clearing that up- but how on Earth was i supposed to have guessed that?
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 13:30:49 GMT -5
quite possibly, actually. not the worst idea i can think of, for sure. but we could also set up isolation wards THERE. probably easier, overall. and less risky. before you jump all over me about that last term, by less risky i mean closer to 0% risk than 1% risk. that sort of less risky. No, I don't mean just the Americans. I mean all of the Ebola patients. i responded to that, as well.If we want to stop the outbreak we should just bring them here where we have all these fancy protocols and hospitals. ibid
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 13:32:07 GMT -5
So we get prepared to treat them and we act like grownups about it. Nigeria managed to do it, but are we saying that we're incapable of doing what Nigeria could with no warning? Well let's get prepared then. We are not at this time prepared according to the experts and the results from our one and only import. Until then we don't need anymore imported cases if we are in anyway able to avoid them. Which we can. no, actually. we can't. do you want me to illustrate why, or can you think it through yourself?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 13:32:11 GMT -5
In West Africa not allowing people to leave infected areas has slowed the spread of the disease. 21 days under quarantine with no symptoms and they are free to leave.
link? I'll find it. not right now, gotta go.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 13:33:12 GMT -5
is a person infectious the SECOND they have a fever? i am not being a smartass, i genuinely don't know. do you? That's what everyone (experts, CDC, etc) is saying. The moment you are showing symptoms, you are infectious. i think we have already established that the CDC recommended that anyone exposed to the disease not travel, so i guess this is why.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 13:33:28 GMT -5
Well let's get prepared then. We are not at this time prepared according to the experts and the results from our one and only import. Until then we don't need anymore imported cases if we are in anyway able to avoid them. Which we can. no, actually. we can't. do you want me to illustrate why, or can you think it through yourself? We can eliminate some. Good enough.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Oct 15, 2014 13:33:41 GMT -5
Holy paranoia! Some of the folks in here are getting way ahead of themselves. Its been two people, who were closest to Duncan when he was his most contagious. Yes this was a screw up on the hospitals part, but this is not going to become the real life version of the movie Outbreak. The first nurse is already improving. We have the ability to contain this. Every single American that has been diagnosed has survived. I think the only reason we couldn't save Duncan was because his immune system is weaker than that of the average American, and the infection took over too quickly.
I don't understand why everyone is working themselves into such a panic already. Why don't you all at least wait to see if anyone from the flight becomes sick, then you can say the sky is falling.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 13:34:40 GMT -5
If our stated goal is to protect our own people, we must act in the interests of eradicating the outbreak. Travel bans are unmanageable and work against that goal. If one of the most equipped and modern healthcare systems in the world announces that it's so bad at preventing an infectious disease and so afraid of it that it cannot risk even one single case from entering its borders, this problem will go from bad to worse globally for many reasons. We need to address the holes that this isolated case has made obvious, not hide our heads in the sand and stay unprepared for the next viral problem. I am not against treating health care workers that have gotten sick in Africa here. They deserve to be treated here, they are contained, we know they are sick and we are prepared for them. There is a difference between that and what Duncan did. He came here possibly not even knowing he was sick. Two more people are sick because of him. A 21 day quarantine for Duncan would have prevented that outcome.
proper diagnosis and protocol would have also prevented that outcome. agreed?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 13:35:52 GMT -5
Holy paranoia! Some of the folks in here are getting way ahead of themselves. Its been two people, who were closest to Duncan when he was his most contagious. Yes this was a screw up on the hospitals part, but this is not going to become the real life version of the movie Outbreak. The first nurse is already improving. We have the ability to contain this. Every single American that has been diagnosed has survived. I think the only reason we couldn't save Duncan was because his immune system is weaker than that of the average American, and the infection took over too quickly.
I don't understand why everyone is working themselves into such a panic already. Why don't you all at least wait to see if anyone from the flight becomes sick, then you can say the sky is falling. i think dem was right. we should quarantine Texas. that would fix a whole slew of problems.
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 15, 2014 13:37:06 GMT -5
Well, I've been spending a lot of time in the hospital. I just left the cafeteria where an obviously sick woman was coughing all over the place. People picked up their food and moved away from her. She was offered a mask and got offended about it. Frankly, she shouldn't be in a public place, let alone a hospital, but it's easy to see how selfish people can easily pass diseases onto others. Better safe than sorry. I not only moved but I put my mask on. I don't need to pass anything onto DF.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 13:37:16 GMT -5
Umm, she wasn't infectious on Monday. Taking the plane out of service is over-kill, but with the press sensationalizing and so many people deciding they're in imminent danger, I can understand why it's being done. As for the stock market, I'm not overly concerned with stocks in relation to this. I'm more concerned about those who are ill and those who are not ill but think they're going to be. I, personally, wouldn't be the least concerned if I'd sat in the same seat as she sat in on Monday. Who the hell says "Gee I might have Ebola... Hey I'm going to fly to visit my family!" How is that not reckless? What happened if that plane had been cancelled, rerouted, or delayed? Hey what's worse than being one of those poor slobs stuck on the tarmac for 12 hours?? Being one of the poor slobs stuck on the tarmac for 12 hours while sitting next to the guy with Ebola!" So he/she whatever was not contagious for that flight but somewhere between 8:16pm and some undisclosed time in the morning they are. That is not exactly a long time between. What difference does it make how long there is "between"? You're not infectious UNTIL you're infectious.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Oct 15, 2014 13:37:19 GMT -5
I have no problem with quarantining Texas! They want to secede anyway don't they? Maybe we should just let them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 13:38:49 GMT -5
I am not against treating health care workers that have gotten sick in Africa here. They deserve to be treated here, they are contained, we know they are sick and we are prepared for them. There is a difference between that and what Duncan did. He came here possibly not even knowing he was sick. Two more people are sick because of him. A 21 day quarantine for Duncan would have prevented that outcome.
proper diagnosis and protocol would have also prevented that outcome. agreed? Agreed. Didn't happen. Agreed?
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