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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 11:53:25 GMT -5
Supposedly they handled Duncan with extreme caution too (once they knew he had Ebola)- full hazmat suits, yet two health care workers are now diagnosed positive. I'm starting to doubt that it's really as hard to catch as our government and the CDC would have us believe. i'm not. this disease has been around for almost 40 years. there are very few mysteries with it.I'm surprised there isn't protocol for healthcare workers treating Ebola patients traveling within that 21 day incubation period. there is- if they are showing symptoms.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 11:54:06 GMT -5
Supposedly they handled Duncan with extreme caution too (once they knew he had Ebola)- full hazmat suits, yet two health care workers are now diagnosed positive. I'm starting to doubt that it's really as hard to catch as our government and the CDC would have us believe. I'm surprised there isn't protocol for healthcare workers treating Ebola patients traveling within that 21 day incubation period. I would assume this would be covered in healthcare procedures 101. If not, want to bet it will be?
sure. how does $100 sound?
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 11:55:10 GMT -5
I think with 2 cases in a country of 300 million, things aren't too bad at this point. Odds are extremely good that neither case exposed anyone in the public. If they can just fix the issues that are exposing healthcare workers, then things are fine. As long as we can get people into isolation as soon as they become symptomatic, then we will not have an outbreak in our country. The 21-day clock on the first case will run out on Friday, without any further cases among his family and friends and anyone he had casual contact with. If it weren't for the Dallas hospital having lax procedures for keeping health care workers protected, this one case wouldn't have even affected anyone from the US. So, instead of worrying about a travel ban, it sounds to me like what we need is to fix our own hospitals' training and preparation for infectious diseases. bingo. travel bans HELP SPREAD THE DISEASE. this is not speculation. it is a fact. look it up.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 11:58:24 GMT -5
Many experts have publicly stated the various reasons that travel bans from the affected countries are not effective, not wise, and could make things worse. The reasoning for not stopping air travel in the several unbiased news articles I read did not hold a lot of water- although I really wanted to agree that it's the right decision. Supposedly if they can't get on commercial airplanes, they will find other ways of getting here and we won't be able to find these sick people to treat and prevent the spread. I was thinking about this when I read an article about a young man from Sierra Leone was was denied an apartment in England simply because he's from Sierra Leone. I assume that the people who banned him from living there were trying to stay safe. But the next time that man fills out an application, he's going to say he is not from Sierra Leone. And all the other folks from Sierra Leone are going to learn to do the same. Fake documents are going to start being made and circulated. If we think it's hard to protect ourselves when people are open about being from affected countries, can you imagine how much harder it's going to be when our irrational fears have taught people to actively hide their origins and maybe indentities? The stigma of ebola has helped create a large part of the outbreak problem in West Africa, so how does it really help us to create a stigma about simply being in West Africa?
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2014 12:02:07 GMT -5
I would assume this would be covered in healthcare procedures 101. If not, want to bet it will be?
sure. how does $100 sound? Well we are talking Federal Healthcare here (how's that for a double entendre) so I cannot take that bet The CDC has admitted a mistake for not showing up in Dallas immediately
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2014 12:03:58 GMT -5
CDC: controlled movement of a person monitoring their health INCLUDES no commercial airplane trips.
OOPS
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:05:39 GMT -5
sure. how does $100 sound? Well we are talking Federal Healthcare here (how's that for a double entendre) so I cannot take that bet The CDC has admitted a mistake for not showing up in Dallas immediately
i was talking specifically about travel bans being "suggested" by the CDC as a protocol. what were you talking about?
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:06:16 GMT -5
CDC: controlled movement of a person monitoring their health INCLUDES no commercial airplane trips.
OOPS was she "monitoring her health"? edit: i have no problem with travel bans for EXPOSED PERSONS, VB. that is totally different from a general travel ban. if you are on some "no fly list", you should not fly.
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2014 12:09:26 GMT -5
Bills, when the President said he would not stop the flights from the hot zones, he interjected his decision and thought process into the procedures. When he implemented or allowed to be implemented a simple screening of "are you coming from an infected country" question and a simple thermometer gun checking your temperature, he and the CDC BLEW IT.
As far as my perception of the President, we have had discussions on his performance and I am on record of giving him a better than I expected performance at the time. I am just updating my record on his present performance tally.
i don't know enough about this situation to blame anyone other than the hospital that treated the Liberian fellow. however, i am disinclined to blame the CDC at this point, partially based on my experience with Texas and their fervent anti-federalism. if the CDC told them to do something, i have little doubt they would not do it. unless THIS HOSPITAL IS STATE OWNED, I am welling to keep politics out of it, even, I guess the President. BUT not the CDC At this point the entire staff managing this hospital should be investigated on this issue, and some, if not all of management should probably be removed asap
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 12:10:13 GMT -5
The 21-day clock on the first case will run out on Friday, without any further cases among his family and friends and anyone he had casual contact with. If it weren't for the Dallas hospital having lax procedures for keeping health care workers protected, this one case wouldn't have even affected anyone from the US. So, instead of worrying about a travel ban, it sounds to me like what we need is to fix our own hospitals' training and preparation for infectious diseases. bingo. travel bans HELP SPREAD THE DISEASE. this is not speculation. it is a fact. look it up. Just noticed this article about how disrupting commercial flights in and out of the affected areas is already getting in the way of keeping the countries functional and workers trying to stop the outbreak. For anyone who doesn't think we should worry about either of these things, imagine how well this outbreak will spread when any of these fragile countries fall into violence, hunger, civil war, or economic collapse and people start fleeing it. www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-15/airlines-fly-away-from-ebola-leaving-aid-workers-stranded
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:17:02 GMT -5
bingo. travel bans HELP SPREAD THE DISEASE. this is not speculation. it is a fact. look it up. Just noticed this article about how disrupting commercial flights in and out of the affected areas is already getting in the way of keeping the countries functional and workers trying to stop the outbreak. For anyone who doesn't think we should worry about either of these things, imagine how well this outbreak will spread when any of these fragile countries fall into violence, hunger, civil war, or economic collapse and people start fleeing it. www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-15/airlines-fly-away-from-ebola-leaving-aid-workers-strandedthey will flee on foot over borders, and the disease will spread throughout Africa. if you want to create a TRUE pandemic, by all means, ban travel.
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2014 12:17:46 GMT -5
bingo. travel bans HELP SPREAD THE DISEASE. this is not speculation. it is a fact. look it up. Just noticed this article about how disrupting commercial flights in and out of the affected areas is already getting in the way of keeping the countries functional and workers trying to stop the outbreak. For anyone who doesn't think we should worry about either of these things, imagine how well this outbreak will spread when any of these fragile countries fall into violence, hunger, civil war, or economic collapse and people start fleeing it. www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-15/airlines-fly-away-from-ebola-leaving-aid-workers-strandedI am sure we and other countries can have charter flights in and out of country on a regular schedule. Hell we did it in Vietnam with our troops flying in and out of country, 24/7. It just has to have the proper procedures in place to make sure we are not transferring the disease out of country, and quite frankly I do not trust third world countries to do a proper job of screening. Then again we have proven today we cannot do it either.
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 15, 2014 12:18:06 GMT -5
... unless THIS HOSPITAL IS STATE OWNED, ...] Texas Health is one of the nation's largest faith-based, nonprofit health care delivery systems. www.texashealth.org/
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:18:53 GMT -5
i don't know enough about this situation to blame anyone other than the hospital that treated the Liberian fellow. however, i am disinclined to blame the CDC at this point, partially based on my experience with Texas and their fervent anti-federalism. if the CDC told them to do something, i have little doubt they would not do it. unless THIS HOSPITAL IS STATE OWNED, I am welling to keep politics out of it, even, I guess the President.
well, it isn't, i am gathering.
BUT not the CDC At this point the entire staff managing this hospital should be investigated on this issue, and some, if not all of management should probably be removed asap
probably tied to a stick and burned, ala 1350.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:20:10 GMT -5
VB- here- drink this, and get back to me in 30:
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 12:20:46 GMT -5
Just noticed this article about how disrupting commercial flights in and out of the affected areas is already getting in the way of keeping the countries functional and workers trying to stop the outbreak. For anyone who doesn't think we should worry about either of these things, imagine how well this outbreak will spread when any of these fragile countries fall into violence, hunger, civil war, or economic collapse and people start fleeing it. www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-15/airlines-fly-away-from-ebola-leaving-aid-workers-strandedI am sure we and other countries can have charter flights in and out of country on a regular schedule. Hell we did it in Vietnam with our troops flying in and out of country, 24/7. It just has to have the proper procedures in place to make sure we are not transferring the disease out of country, and quite frankly I do not trust third world countries to do a proper job of screening. Then again we have proven today we cannot do it either.
So, we're going to make international charities and militaries and governments divert funds and time from actually trying to stop an epidemic that we want eradicated to instead arrange and pay for constant charter flights, all because we have a local Texas hospital that can't figure out what the Nigerians figured out about protecting health workers?
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2014 12:24:54 GMT -5
Just noticed this article about how disrupting commercial flights in and out of the affected areas is already getting in the way of keeping the countries functional and workers trying to stop the outbreak. For anyone who doesn't think we should worry about either of these things, imagine how well this outbreak will spread when any of these fragile countries fall into violence, hunger, civil war, or economic collapse and people start fleeing it. www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-10-15/airlines-fly-away-from-ebola-leaving-aid-workers-strandedthey will flee on foot over borders, and the disease will spread throughout Africa. if you want to create a TRUE pandemic, by all means, ban travel. There you go using your straw man argument that you always use against posters here uneducated villagers are always moving on foot, or motorcycles. They are not flying out of country to escape. If they could afford it they would. Will they migrate out of country? Travel ban des not have to occur. Of course. Where there is a will, there is a way.
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 12:25:26 GMT -5
Ok, now we have a second healthcare worker that self checked his fever etc, and checked himself into the Dallas Hospital with a now confirmed Ebola diagnosis. That was bad enough. Now it was announced he just took a Frontier airlines flight from Cleveland to Dallas on Monday. Frontier was forced to take the plane out of service. Gee according to everyone here there is no reason to worry. So much for self checking people who may be infected, when they are free to fly around the country during incubation timeframes. In the meantime the stock market fell hard on the open just on the announcement of the second case, started to recover, then the announcement of the plane incident.
Man I would so much be happy to learn I was sitting in that patient's seat on the ensueing trip after he deplaned. Umm, she wasn't infectious on Monday. Taking the plane out of service is over-kill, but with the press sensationalizing and so many people deciding they're in imminent danger, I can understand why it's being done. As for the stock market, I'm not overly concerned with stocks in relation to this. I'm more concerned about those who are ill and those who are not ill but think they're going to be. I, personally, wouldn't be the least concerned if I'd sat in the same seat as she sat in on Monday.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 12:28:10 GMT -5
I am sure we and other countries can have charter flights in and out of country on a regular schedule. Hell we did it in Vietnam with our troops flying in and out of country, 24/7. It just has to have the proper procedures in place to make sure we are not transferring the disease out of country, and quite frankly I do not trust third world countries to do a proper job of screening. Then again we have proven today we cannot do it either.
So, we're going to make international charities and militaries and governments divert funds and time from actually trying to stop an epidemic that we want eradicated to instead arrange and pay for constant charter flights, all because we have a local Texas hospital that can't figure out what the Nigerians figured out about protecting health workers? We have health care workers in hospitals all over the country telling us that they, like Dallas are not prepared to take care of Ebola patients. Flight bans or quarantine until that time those health care workers are telling us they are. 3 months,6 months, I don't know, but Dallas is not the exception at this point it is more likely the norm.
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 15, 2014 12:29:06 GMT -5
Ok, now we have a second healthcare worker that self checked his fever etc, and checked himself into the Dallas Hospital with a now confirmed Ebola diagnosis. That was bad enough. Now it was announced he just took a Frontier airlines flight from Cleveland to Dallas on Monday. Frontier was forced to take the plane out of service. Gee according to everyone here there is no reason to worry. So much for self checking people who may be infected, when they are free to fly around the country during incubation timeframes. In the meantime the stock market fell hard on the open just on the announcement of the second case, started to recover, then the announcement of the plane incident.
Man I would so much be happy to learn I was sitting in that patient's seat on the ensueing trip after he deplaned. Umm, she wasn't infectious on Monday. Taking the plane out of service is over-kill, but with the press sensationalizing and so many people deciding they're in imminent danger, I can understand why it's being done. As for the stock market, I'm not overly concerned with stocks in relation to this. I'm more concerned about those who are ill and those who are not ill but think they're going to be. I, personally, wouldn't be the least concerned if I'd sat in the same seat as she sat in on Monday. I will say at this time, neither one of us know for a fact she was not infectious at this time. I do know she broke CDC protocol by flying. What else was/is wrong with the plan? What other protocol is not being followed?
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 12:29:30 GMT -5
CDC: controlled movement of a person monitoring their health INCLUDES no commercial airplane trips.
OOPS was she "monitoring her health"? edit: i have no problem with travel bans for EXPOSED PERSONS, VB. that is totally different from a general travel ban. if you are on some "no fly list", you should not fly. Yes, she was monitoring her health. She was taking her temperature twice a day, per protocol. It was when she popped a fever she went to the hospital to be isolated.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 12:30:56 GMT -5
they will flee on foot over borders, and the disease will spread throughout Africa. if you want to create a TRUE pandemic, by all means, ban travel. There you go using your straw man argument that you always use against posters here uneducated villagers are always moving on foot, or motorcycles. They are not flying out of country to escape. If they could afford it they would. Will they migrate out of country? Travel ban des not have to occur. Of course. Where there is a will, there is a way.
If the country falls to violence, economic breakdown, civil war, or any of the other myriad of things that can be caused by further isolating it when it's fragile, they will definitely flee the area.
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 12:31:48 GMT -5
Umm, she wasn't infectious on Monday. Taking the plane out of service is over-kill, but with the press sensationalizing and so many people deciding they're in imminent danger, I can understand why it's being done. As for the stock market, I'm not overly concerned with stocks in relation to this. I'm more concerned about those who are ill and those who are not ill but think they're going to be. I, personally, wouldn't be the least concerned if I'd sat in the same seat as she sat in on Monday. I will say at this time, neither one of us know for a fact she was not infectious at this time. I do know she broke CDC protocol by flying. What else was/is wrong with the plan? What other protocol is not being followed?
Yes, we do. She went to the hospital for isolation as soon as she popped a fever. She didn't shed any body fluids on that plane that could have infected anyone. You go ahead and panic, though. Work yourself and everyone around you into a frenzy.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 12:33:35 GMT -5
So, we're going to make international charities and militaries and governments divert funds and time from actually trying to stop an epidemic that we want eradicated to instead arrange and pay for constant charter flights, all because we have a local Texas hospital that can't figure out what the Nigerians figured out about protecting health workers? We have health care workers in hospitals all over the country telling us that they, like Dallas are not prepared to take care of Ebola patients. Flight bans or quarantine until that time those health care workers are telling us they are. 3 months,6 months, I don't know, but Dallas is not the exception at this point it is more likely the norm.
If the US' healthcare system is not preparing itself to handle infectious disease, we need to solve that problem internally. No travel ban will prevent 100% this thing from entering a crack in the system. We must fix the system we have put in place for ourselves.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:37:37 GMT -5
was she "monitoring her health"? edit: i have no problem with travel bans for EXPOSED PERSONS, VB. that is totally different from a general travel ban. if you are on some "no fly list", you should not fly. Yes, she was monitoring her health. She was taking her temperature twice a day, per protocol. It was when she popped a fever she went to the hospital to be isolated. then this is yet another protocol that was ignored? jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 12:38:35 GMT -5
We have health care workers in hospitals all over the country telling us that they, like Dallas are not prepared to take care of Ebola patients. Flight bans or quarantine until that time those health care workers are telling us they are. 3 months,6 months, I don't know, but Dallas is not the exception at this point it is more likely the norm.
If the US' healthcare system is not preparing itself to handle infectious disease, we need to solve that problem internally. No travel ban will prevent 100% this thing from entering a crack in the system. We must fix the system we have put in place for ourselves. I am not asking for 100%. I'm asking for eliminating risk in every way possible. Importing ebola victims when we are not prepared to treat them without spreading the disease further is not a good plan.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:39:22 GMT -5
they will flee on foot over borders, and the disease will spread throughout Africa. if you want to create a TRUE pandemic, by all means, ban travel. There you go using your straw man argument that you always use against posters here huh? no. that is actually what happens. you can't stop people from running, VB. here is my point tho: travel bans mean that health workers that go to afflicted areas can't leave. what impacts do you think that has on the "epidemic"?
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 12:40:54 GMT -5
There you go using your straw man argument that you always use against posters here uneducated villagers are always moving on foot, or motorcycles. They are not flying out of country to escape. If they could afford it they would. Will they migrate out of country? Travel ban des not have to occur. Of course. Where there is a will, there is a way.
If the country falls to violence, economic breakdown, civil war, or any of the other myriad of things that can be caused by further isolating it when it's fragile, they will definitely flee the area. and NOTHING, NOTHING on God's Green Earth will stop it. so then, the next question becomes: how best to avoid that? i think what the UN is talking about is a multinational approach to fixing this. bombard this area with experts, training, and MONEY.
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 12:40:55 GMT -5
If the US' healthcare system is not preparing itself to handle infectious disease, we need to solve that problem internally. No travel ban will prevent 100% this thing from entering a crack in the system. We must fix the system we have put in place for ourselves. I am not asking for 100%. I'm asking for eliminating risk in every way possible. Importing ebola victims when we are not prepared to treat them without spreading the disease further is not a good plan.
So we get prepared to treat them and we act like grownups about it. Nigeria managed to do it, but are we saying that we're incapable of doing what Nigeria could with no warning?
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 12:42:01 GMT -5
If the country falls to violence, economic breakdown, civil war, or any of the other myriad of things that can be caused by further isolating it when it's fragile, they will definitely flee the area. and NOTHING, NOTHING on God's Green Earth will stop it. so then, the next question becomes: how best to avoid that? i think what the UN is talking about is a multinational approach to fixing this. bombard this area with experts, training, and MONEY. Yes, the only solution that really works is to eradicate the outbreak. And anything we can do to further that goal will help save our own citizens. Anything we do to hinder that goal will put more citizens at risk for longer periods of time.
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