Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 14:11:15 GMT -5
I'd like to see the CDC isolating the nurses at a different location than this hospital that's had such problems with protocols so far. I know the CDC is overseeing things now, and that should help, but this place sounds like it needs to focus on training and the CDC may want to use better-prepared facilities at this point. With the CDC there, I'd imagine this hospital's staff are taking things a lot more seriously than they appear to have been doing before. Were I one of the infected, I'd probably want to be transferred, but I'd also realize my illness had the effect of waking up my fellow workers to the real dangers of breaking protocols. I'd expect this hospital to be doing pretty darned well about now and scurrying to be sure they kept it up! mmhmm I just saw that they're going to be isolating/treating the second nurse, at least, at one of the other hospitals (Emory?) that successfully treated the earlier evacuated patients. I think this is for the best, as they are very well-trained and prepared there.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 14:16:45 GMT -5
With the CDC there, I'd imagine this hospital's staff are taking things a lot more seriously than they appear to have been doing before. Were I one of the infected, I'd probably want to be transferred, but I'd also realize my illness had the effect of waking up my fellow workers to the real dangers of breaking protocols. I'd expect this hospital to be doing pretty darned well about now and scurrying to be sure they kept it up! mmhmm I just saw that they're going to be isolating/treating the second nurse, at least, at one of the other hospitals (Emory?) that successfully treated the earlier evacuated patients. I think this is for the best, as they are very well-trained and prepared there. I agree, RMS. That's the best thing to do at this point, I think. Hopefully, at least the larger medical facilities either have their stuff together or are getting it together as we speak. For right now, if I were that nurse, I'd want to be at one of the facilities that knows how to deal with this issue.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 14:19:05 GMT -5
CDC says more protection is not necessarily better. he's right, of course. the right amount of gear is the minimum needed to do the job. any MORE than that is an invitation to simply forgo the protocol. i honestly can't understand why anyone would argue with that. edit: HERE is the problem: the nurses caring for our first fatality had exposed necks with their "protective suits", their gloves weren't being taped to their gowns, AND instead of walking samples to the lab, they were using that vacuum system (whatever it's called) to zip samples through the hospital system. until you fix that, complaining about needing MORE safeguards is not only unwise, but counterproductive. I'd read that, too, dj. That's unbelievably stupid. Hell, one knows better than that when graduated from nursing school! Just plain dumb!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 14:28:00 GMT -5
It's amazing to me anyone would even think of sending a specimen from an infectious patient through a vacuum tube system! That just blows my mind! Additionally, any nurse worth her salt learned in nursing school the proper protocols for the various types of isolation. If you know a given disease is transmitted by direct contact with body fluids, it just makes sense to realize you skin MUST BE COVERED EVERYWHERE! That means a seal at every seam, mask, shield, goggles, nitrile gloves (I always double-gloved)), etc. It really, really isn't rocket science.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 14:35:29 GMT -5
he's right, of course. the right amount of gear is the minimum needed to do the job. any MORE than that is an invitation to simply forgo the protocol. i honestly can't understand why anyone would argue with that. edit: HERE is the problem: the nurses caring for our first fatality had exposed necks with their "protective suits", their gloves weren't being taped to their gowns, AND instead of walking samples to the lab, they were using that vacuum system (whatever it's called) to zip samples through the hospital system. until you fix that, complaining about needing MORE safeguards is not only unwise, but counterproductive. I'm sorry...I thought you knew! www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/ppe-poster.pdfthere is no indication that protocol is sufficient for ebola. there is also no indication that it is NOT. i have taken two different positions on this, because i am hearing two different things. given that one of them is from FOX, i am guessing that they (and you) are wrong. that having been said, the CDC guy is right, we know precisely how much gear is needed to provide worker safety. that has been known for decades.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2014 14:48:42 GMT -5
It's amazing to me anyone would even think of sending a specimen from an infectious patient through a vacuum tube system! That just blows my mind! Additionally, any nurse worth her salt learned in nursing school the proper protocols for the various types of isolation. If you know a given disease is transmitted by direct contact with body fluids, it just makes sense to realize you skin MUST BE COVERED EVERYWHERE! That means a seal at every seam, mask, shield, goggles, nitrile gloves (I always double-gloved)), etc. It really, really isn't rocket science. It really doesn't make sense. And if you are a nurse or in charge of nurses & you didn't have the appropriate supplies, then would you just wait for them to come? Seems to me you would be on the phone with every hospital in the state in an effort to track down what you need. Why did it take 3 days to get the equipment? Someone screwed up HUGE if the reports are true & they didn't have the equipment & weren't given it ASAP.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 15:10:08 GMT -5
the more i read about this story, the more i reach the conclusion that this hospital (and probably the entire chain by this particular PRIVATE company) should be brought under indictment for negligence. everyone seems gung-ho to blame the CDC, but i what i have heard and read from them gives every indication that they actually give a shit, and that this hospital clearly didn't.
edit: oh, and it goes without saying that if ALL hospitals suck as bad as this one, we do, indeed, have an issue.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Oct 15, 2014 15:24:59 GMT -5
Government good!...Private company bad! Private company does not go above and beyond Government protocols? www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/ppe-poster.pdfGovernment good!...Private company bad! Say it with me now!!!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 15:42:24 GMT -5
Government good!...Private company bad! Private company does not go above and beyond Government protocols? www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/ppe-poster.pdfGovernment good!...Private company bad! Say it with me now!!! Excuse me? Where did anyone say that? Furthermore, what is this company's mission? What is their job? Their job is to treat the sick and to do it in the best and safest way possible, is it not? Did they do that? I'd say the answer to that is a resounding NO! if all reports are true. Own up to your failures as quickly as you blow your horn about your successes.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 16:27:50 GMT -5
Government good!...Private company bad! i never said the government was good. the reason i point the blame at the hospital is that is where the rubber hits the road. the government can issue whatever protocols it likes, if they are not followed, whose responsibility is that?Private company does not go above and beyond Government protocols? www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/ppe-poster.pdfshow me where that poster says "ebola", and we will be on the same page. until then, you are on the same bullshit page as FOX.Government good!...Private company bad! Say it with me now!!! details are important. you are ignoring them. until you stop, i am going to ignore you.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 16:28:52 GMT -5
Government good!...Private company bad! Private company does not go above and beyond Government protocols? www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/ppe-poster.pdfGovernment good!...Private company bad! Say it with me now!!! Excuse me? Where did anyone say that? Furthermore, what is this company's mission? What is their job? Their job is to treat the sick and to do it in the best and safest way possible, is it not? Did they do that? I'd say the answer to that is a resounding NO! if all reports are true. Own up to your failures as quickly as you blow your horn about your successes. i could be a lot harder on this hospital than to say they suck, that is for damned sure. but just to be clear: does ANYONE think this hospital did an A++ job on this?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 16:37:01 GMT -5
Excuse me? Where did anyone say that? Furthermore, what is this company's mission? What is their job? Their job is to treat the sick and to do it in the best and safest way possible, is it not? Did they do that? I'd say the answer to that is a resounding NO! if all reports are true. Own up to your failures as quickly as you blow your horn about your successes. i could be a lot harder on this hospital than to say they suck, that is for damned sure. but just to be clear: does ANYONE think this hospital did an A++ job on this? The more I hear about how this hospital handled things the more I think they might be better off just closing their doors and converting themselves to an indoor botanical garden, or something. This is unthinkable!
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 16:48:57 GMT -5
i could be a lot harder on this hospital than to say they suck, that is for damned sure. but just to be clear: does ANYONE think this hospital did an A++ job on this? The more I hear about how this hospital handled things the more I think they might be better off just closing their doors and converting themselves to an indoor botanical garden, or something. This is unthinkable! Memo to self: Remind sister in Dallas not to go to Texas Health Presbyterian for treatment...
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 16:50:23 GMT -5
i could be a lot harder on this hospital than to say they suck, that is for damned sure. but just to be clear: does ANYONE think this hospital did an A++ job on this? The more I hear about how this hospital handled things the more I think they might be better off just closing their doors and converting themselves to an indoor botanical garden, or something. This is unthinkable! let's just clear this stupidity up right now, before it spreads worse than ebola. that poster that Megyn Kelly presented to the CDC chair has nothing to do with ebola. those are GENERAL protocols for that type of equipment. i am almost positive that the standards are more rigorous for ebola. the suits they are wearing look like haz-mat suits. they are full body. the general garb shown in the CDC document is not the same class of hazardware AT ALL. for Megyn or anyone else to even IMPLY that the CDC recommended that attire for ebola is defamation. i can't think of a lighter term. it is f(*king outrageous. whoever doing it should cease doing it immediately and apologize, or they are just as negligent as the hospital, imo.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Oct 15, 2014 16:55:46 GMT -5
Government good!...Private company bad! i never said the government was good. the reason i point the blame at the hospital is that is where the rubber hits the road. the government can issue whatever protocols it likes, if they are not followed, whose responsibility is that?Private company does not go above and beyond Government protocols? www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/ppe-poster.pdfshow me where that poster says "ebola", and we will be on the same page. until then, you are on the same bullshit page as FOX.Government good!...Private company bad! Say it with me now!!! details are important. you are ignoring them. until you stop, i am going to ignore you. You... It has ebola in the link address! www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/hcp/infection-prevention-and-control-recommendations.html I suppose, "not limited to" is your out! Have a good one!
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 16:58:28 GMT -5
The more I hear about how this hospital handled things the more I think they might be better off just closing their doors and converting themselves to an indoor botanical garden, or something. This is unthinkable! let's just clear this stupidity up right now, before it spreads worse than ebola. that poster that Megyn Kelly presented to the CDC chair has nothing to do with ebola. those are GENERAL protocols for that type of equipment. i am almost positive that the standards are more rigorous for ebola. the suits they are wearing look like haz-mat suits. they are full body. the general garb shown in the CDC document is not the same class of hazardware AT ALL. for Megyn or anyone else to even IMPLY that the CDC recommended that attire for ebola is defamation. i can't think of a lighter term. it is f(*king outrageous. whoever doing it should cease doing it immediately and apologize, or they are just as negligent as the hospital, imo. Yes, they are general protocols. But the link to that PDF comes from the CDC's page on Ebola's general guide for healthcare workers. I followed the link.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 17:16:29 GMT -5
The more I hear about how this hospital handled things the more I think they might be better off just closing their doors and converting themselves to an indoor botanical garden, or something. This is unthinkable! let's just clear this stupidity up right now, before it spreads worse than ebola. that poster that Megyn Kelly presented to the CDC chair has nothing to do with ebola. those are GENERAL protocols for that type of equipment. i am almost positive that the standards are more rigorous for ebola. the suits they are wearing look like haz-mat suits. they are full body. the general garb shown in the CDC document is not the same class of hazardware AT ALL. for Megyn or anyone else to even IMPLY that the CDC recommended that attire for ebola is defamation. i can't think of a lighter term. it is f(*king outrageous. whoever doing it should cease doing it immediately and apologize, or they are just as negligent as the hospital, imo. Like I said, I'd like to lock most of the freaking press up in that hospital! No, the staff treating an Ebola patient doesn't wear haz-mat gear like you see on the people cleaning up apartments of victims. What's used in hospitals is a great deal different. I don't think you could work in one of those other garments.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 17:17:17 GMT -5
The more I hear about how this hospital handled things the more I think they might be better off just closing their doors and converting themselves to an indoor botanical garden, or something. This is unthinkable! I read this as bacterial garden That's precisely why I want the press put in that particular hospital. If this is the way they've been doing business, calling them a bacterial garden might be a compliment!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 17:17:31 GMT -5
details are important. you are ignoring them. until you stop, i am going to ignore you. You are thick, aren't you? It has ebola in the link address! ad hominem. but cool, then i guess that gear is fine, and the hospital didn't follow those protocols. in the video you posted, Megyn Kelly made THESE claims: the nurses caring for our first fatality had exposed necks with their "protective suits", their gloves weren't being taped to their gownsthe second claim implies that they had exposed wrists. the first explicitly states that they had exposed necks. BOTH are precluded by the guidelines the CDC posted. so, again, are you defending the hospital and damning the CDC here? it sure seems like you are. PS- thanks for getting specific.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 17:19:29 GMT -5
The more I hear about how this hospital handled things the more I think they might be better off just closing their doors and converting themselves to an indoor botanical garden, or something. This is unthinkable! I read this as bacterial garden so did i. Sroo- i would appreciate it if you would not encourage ad hominem argument. as much as we disagree, at least you are generally civilized.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 17:20:20 GMT -5
let's just clear this stupidity up right now, before it spreads worse than ebola. that poster that Megyn Kelly presented to the CDC chair has nothing to do with ebola. those are GENERAL protocols for that type of equipment. i am almost positive that the standards are more rigorous for ebola. the suits they are wearing look like haz-mat suits. they are full body. the general garb shown in the CDC document is not the same class of hazardware AT ALL. for Megyn or anyone else to even IMPLY that the CDC recommended that attire for ebola is defamation. i can't think of a lighter term. it is f(*king outrageous. whoever doing it should cease doing it immediately and apologize, or they are just as negligent as the hospital, imo. Yes, they are general protocols. But the link to that PDF comes from the CDC's page on Ebola's general guide for healthcare workers. I followed the link. ok. then they are probably fine, and the hazmat suits are "abundance of caution". thanks for not being a dick.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 17:24:37 GMT -5
according to Megyn, their necks were exposed, which means they were NOT wearing any of the bolded items, even though the CDC recommends them. and yet you and her see fit to blame the CDC? repeat after me "government bad, private company good"
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 15, 2014 17:26:35 GMT -5
according to Megyn, their necks were exposed, which means they were NOT wearing any of the bolded items, even though the CDC recommends them. and yet you and her see fit to blame the CDC? repeat after me "government bad, private company good" Shoe coverings should definitely be worn, IMO. I'd even suggest leg covers as a requirement, were I doing it. I'd want full protection in place.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Oct 15, 2014 17:26:51 GMT -5
Yes, they are general protocols. But the link to that PDF comes from the CDC's page on Ebola's general guide for healthcare workers. I followed the link. ok. then they are probably fine, and the hazmat suits are "abundance of caution". thanks for not being a dick. "Well, I don't know that I believe that anyone is 100% a dick..."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2014 17:30:51 GMT -5
I do not approve travel ban its not gonna help it
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Oct 15, 2014 17:33:24 GMT -5
The story of how much contact the infected nurses had with the index patient and when keeps changing. According to this NYT story, both Ms. Phram and Ms. Vinson had extensive contact with him during the critical first three days when the PPE was horrifically inadequate, bizarrely used, and protocols for removing it were apparently nonexistent. Dr. Frieden confirmed some of the nurses’ claims and complaints. He said the critical period was the first three days of Mr. Duncan’s care before he was confirmed to have Ebola and before the C.D.C. team arrived in Dallas — Sept. 28, 29 and 30. Both Ms. Pham and Ms. Vinson had extensive contact with Mr. Duncan during those three days, and although officials have not yet determined how the two nurses became infected, they were focusing on their use of protective clothing and gear.
This is not good news. I was really hoping that exposure could be traced to a later date. I wasn't alone in that hope either. A lot of the news media seemed to be leaning in the same direction. Expect more cases.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 17:34:33 GMT -5
so did i. Sroo- i would appreciate it if you would not encourage ad hominem argument. as much as we disagree, at least you are generally civilized. Huh? I wasn't laughing at anyone...or anything they said, nor was I encouraging anyone? Unless you were referring to me liking that post about the PPE? the post that contained an ad hominem attack? yeah. that one. if that's the case I wasn't 'liking' or in encouraging the commentary. But agreeing with the PPE recommendations that I had also seen at the CDC website linked on their ebola page. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding if their was one. yeah, just a misunderstanding then. but the PPE directly contradicts what Megyn Kelly said. she accused the CDC of condoning not wearing a face shield, essentially.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 15, 2014 17:36:58 GMT -5
The story of how much contact the infected nurses had with the index patient and when keeps changing. According to this NYT story, both Ms. Phram and Ms. Vinson had extensive contact with him during the critical first three days when the PPE was horrifically inadequate, bizarrely used, and protocols for removing it were apparently nonexistent. Dr. Frieden confirmed some of the nurses’ claims and complaints. He said the critical period was the first three days of Mr. Duncan’s care before he was confirmed to have Ebola and before the C.D.C. team arrived in Dallas — Sept. 28, 29 and 30. Both Ms. Pham and Ms. Vinson had extensive contact with Mr. Duncan during those three days, and although officials have not yet determined how the two nurses became infected, they were focusing on their use of protective clothing and gear.
This is not good news. I was really hoping that exposure could be traced to a later date. I wasn't alone in that hope either. A lot of the news media seemed to be leaning in the same direction. Expect more cases. i think this might be a good chance for mmhmm to chime in on how much "intimate contact" a typical nurse would have with a typical flu patient: 1) nil 2) some 3) a lot also- how MANY NURSES treat the average flu patient? 1-2? more than 2? more than 10? thx
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Post by b2r on Oct 15, 2014 17:37:29 GMT -5
Facemask?...I don't think that word means what you think it does.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 15, 2014 17:38:52 GMT -5
The story of how much contact the infected nurses had with the index patient and when keeps changing. According to this NYT story, both Ms. Phram and Ms. Vinson had extensive contact with him during the critical first three days when the PPE was horrifically inadequate, bizarrely used, and protocols for removing it were apparently nonexistent. Dr. Frieden confirmed some of the nurses’ claims and complaints. He said the critical period was the first three days of Mr. Duncan’s care before he was confirmed to have Ebola and before the C.D.C. team arrived in Dallas — Sept. 28, 29 and 30. Both Ms. Pham and Ms. Vinson had extensive contact with Mr. Duncan during those three days, and although officials have not yet determined how the two nurses became infected, they were focusing on their use of protective clothing and gear.
This is not good news. I was really hoping that exposure could be traced to a later date. I wasn't alone in that hope either. A lot of the news media seemed to be leaning in the same direction. Expect more cases. Why would later date be better?
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