Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 23, 2014 16:36:18 GMT -5
Some poor choices are made if someone feels backed into a corner with no way that they can see to get out. And some poor choices are made because someone just goes with what they want rather than what would make sense. In this case, the woman in this article, rather than getting her teeth fixed with any money she earned CHOSE to get tattoos instead. Why would you do something like this, when you KNOW your appearance is causing employment issues? Because if you fix your teeth and still can't get a real job, then you have to face the reality that it wasn't just the teeth. Easier to talk about how you will always be poor, there is no point in trying, etc. If you actually try, there is a risk of failure.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 23, 2014 16:40:26 GMT -5
And some poor choices are made because someone just goes with what they want rather than what would make sense. In this case, the woman in this article, rather than getting her teeth fixed with any money she earned CHOSE to get tattoos instead. Why would you do something like this, when you KNOW your appearance is causing employment issues? Because if you fix your teeth and still can't get a real job, then you have to face the reality that it wasn't just the teeth. Easier to talk about how you will always be poor, there is no point in trying, etc. If you actually try, there is a risk of failure. A self-fulfilling prophecy, which is a mental and emotional obstacle more than any physical or financial one.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 23, 2014 16:44:16 GMT -5
And some poor choices are made because someone just goes with what they want rather than what would make sense. In this case, the woman in this article, rather than getting her teeth fixed with any money she earned CHOSE to get tattoos instead. Why would you do something like this, when you KNOW your appearance is causing employment issues? Because if you fix your teeth and still can't get a real job, then you have to face the reality that it wasn't just the teeth. Easier to talk about how you will always be poor, there is no point in trying, etc. If you actually try, there is a risk of failure. Then the reason why they are poor is not because they are poor, but that they are afraid of failure. Everyone fails at something. It's not fun, you take your hits and pick yourself up and try again.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 23, 2014 18:52:20 GMT -5
True. But when u live on the edge u can't afford to make mistakes or fail either.
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Ava
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Post by Ava on Sept 23, 2014 22:50:22 GMT -5
Many posters have made excellent points why this particular person is poor. She had kids she could not afford, she dropped out of school, she smokes, etc. But I think the real point here is not why SHE failed. The problem is that we, as a society, are not producing enough jobs for everybody to live on. It used to be that a person could walk with their high-school diploma under his/her arm down the street to the local factory, work for 40 years and support their family with dignity.
That possibility does not exist anymore. Factories are gone. We have service-sector jobs now. We need people to take out the trash and clean the toilets, we need people to stock the shelves at the supermarket. At the same time, we have collectively decided that those jobs are not worthy of enough pay to live on. A person who's willing to get up and work should be able to support themselves. Yes; living wage. Nobody is talking about riches here. A small rental, food, a functioning car, basic healthcare.
But we decided it was better corporation and a small elite reaped all the profits.
With the jobs market as it is right now, we will always have a large percentage of the population unable to "make it". And we will continue to blame them for their failures. If it wasn't this woman it would be another person in her situation. And we would be talking about this hypothetical person's obvious failures. Nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes. It's part of being human. Maybe this lady can lift herself out of poverty, but as long as we don't start valuing people over profits, the problem will continue.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 23, 2014 23:14:45 GMT -5
Not trying to criticize, but define a living wage.
A living wage for a single person is very different from a living wage when you have a couple of kids. A living wage in NYC is very different from a living wage in Alabama.
And then who pays it? Do you think every retailer can afford to start paying everyone double without having to raise prices (thereby making a living wage no longer a living wage).
Right now for the most part everyone is provided a basic standard of living via welfare. The only difference I see is that instead of providing it via welfare covered by the taxes of the wealthy, we have now induced inflation and the cost of everything increase for rich and poor alike. And at least with welfare it can be directed to those with bigger families, more kids, so it targets those that need it.
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Ava
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Post by Ava on Sept 23, 2014 23:46:40 GMT -5
I don't know how to exactly define a living wage. What I'm saying is that jobs used to pay enough to live on. They don't nowadays. That wasn't the case a generation ago. You could work at a factory and support a family.
And welfare is becoming a way of life for working adults. Why? Because people are not getting paid enough. We are subsidizing the Walmarts of this world.
Welfare should be for cases such as job loss or illness; exemptions, not the rule.
I'm sure most people prefer the dignity of paying their own way instead of having to depend on welfare even though they hold down jobs.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 24, 2014 0:18:42 GMT -5
A lot of things are different nowadays. Women are in the workforce so the competition for jobs is much higher. Our lifestyles are much more costly. We have electronic devices that cost us hundreds per month. Our standard of living...house size, number of cars has gone up dramatically.
Everything has changed. You can't just idealize one thing in the past without realizing all the other pieces that caused the changed
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Ava
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Post by Ava on Sept 24, 2014 0:38:34 GMT -5
I'm not talking about electronics or bigger houses. I'm talking about making rent in a small facility.
Yes, things have changed.
Healthcare costs are out of control, but not so in other countries. Education costs are out of control also.
For people working low or minimum wage job it is now customary to get few hours and no benefits. Why are we allowing this? Is it necessary? Isn't there a better way around it?
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Ava
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Post by Ava on Sept 24, 2014 0:44:00 GMT -5
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Sept 24, 2014 5:03:53 GMT -5
I have to agree there arent' enough good jobs anymore. And, the government does not create jobs. Sorry. That doesn't make for a functioning society. What govt can do is get the heck out of the way of people who want to start business. With so much over regulations, taxation, etc. they have disincentivized new business. And, why build factories here when you have to pay $7.25 an hour when you can simply go overseas and pay practically nothing for labor? Young people can no longer graduate high school and hope to work there way up at some job. My uncles, neither went to college, but both wound up in high places in major corporations. That doesn't happen much anymore.
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xia
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Post by xia on Sept 24, 2014 5:20:22 GMT -5
I don't know how to exactly define a living wage. What I'm saying is that jobs used to pay enough to live on. They don't nowadays. That wasn't the case a generation ago. You could work at a factory and support a family.
And welfare is becoming a way of life for working adults. Why? Because people are not getting paid enough. We are subsidizing the Walmarts of this world.
Welfare should be for cases such as job loss or illness; exemptions, not the rule.
I'm sure most people prefer the dignity of paying their own way instead of having to depend on welfare even though they hold down jobs.
I don’t know what the answer is, but raising pay is not an answer. When min. wage went up last time it took no time at all for prices of basic things to jump to basically make sure the people making minimum wage were back in the same boat, same percentage of their pay went to grocery, rents, utility bills…. Nothing for them improved. The only those who seen any difference were those who made slightly more then the new min.wage, they didn’t get any raises, so their living standards actually went down. Last increase of min. wage in my opinion created more problems then is solved. I don’t know if this happen all over the U.S. but it sure did in my area. Price of milk doubled, basic foods over all jumped in price, cheap apartments rents jumped up. I just don’t see raising min. wage / living wage/ whatever you want to call it as an answer. And no, like I said I do not know what the answer is, I just know what isn’t.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2014 7:24:58 GMT -5
The government creates tons of jobs... Because near 100% of the money it spends on welfare! food stamps, EITC, etc. Social programs goes directly into the economy allowing people to purchase goods and services.
Additionally, the government directly employs and funds. We got through the height of the recession with government funded projects... Hired even.
Job creation is not a matter of 'I feel like hiring today'... It's a matter of demand. If goods and services don't sell because people can't afford them... No demand, no hiring.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2014 7:42:27 GMT -5
Many posters have made excellent points why this particular person is poor. She had kids she could not afford, she dropped out of school, she smokes, etc. But I think the real point here is not why SHE failed. The problem is that we, as a society, are not producing enough jobs for everybody to live on. It used to be that a person could walk with their high-school diploma under his/her arm down the street to the local factory, work for 40 years and support their family with dignity. That possibility does not exist anymore. Factories are gone. We have service-sector jobs now. We need people to take out the trash and clean the toilets, we need people to stock the shelves at the supermarket. At the same time, we have collectively decided that those jobs are not worthy of enough pay to live on. A person who's willing to get up and work should be able to support themselves. Yes; living wage. Nobody is talking about riches here. A small rental, food, a functioning car, basic healthcare. But we decided it was better corporation and a small elite reaped all the profits. With the jobs market as it is right now, we will always have a large percentage of the population unable to "make it". And we will continue to blame them for their failures. If it wasn't this woman it would be another person in her situation. And we would be talking about this hypothetical person's obvious failures. Nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes. It's part of being human. Maybe this lady can lift herself out of poverty, but as long as we don't start valuing people over profits, the problem will continue. I get this feeling when I post here a lot, but I must live in an oasis of some kind. There are tons of factories around here. Composites, fasteners (nuts and bolts) several electronics places, furniture, sporting goods, candy, canoes, chain...and these are just the big places, there are lot more. This is in a town of 27K people. Lots of people go to one of these places straight from high school and stay forever. I've been at the same company for 20 years now (with a few year break in there when I stayed home). Most of the big places in town also have tuition reimbursement and we have two colleges in town, so it's possible to start out at the bottom and work your way through school. Several engineers here started out inspecting boards, as did our division manager that is making really big bucks now I'm sure.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Sept 24, 2014 9:00:13 GMT -5
The bottom line is that companies are going to strive for a certain profit margin so raising the minimum wage does zero to help the economy. If the minimum wage were raised to $15 an hour then all salaries would need to be raised in order to be in line with inflation. Those people would still be at the bottom, having no more buying power than they did before. There are a lot of trade jobs that people could spend a year training for that are above minimum wage. This is where I think high schools and parents are doing a great disservice to a lot of kids. It seems to be all or nothing. You either go to a four year college or end up working a McJob. There are tons of other options out there that aren't being presented IMHO.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Sept 24, 2014 9:29:46 GMT -5
What exactly does "valuing people over profits" actually mean? It often just seems to be code for some sort of welfare state, and we have seen how well that has worked in certain European countries (as in not very well). In the long term, no country can afford to provide handouts to a large swathe of the population by raising revenue from taxing the resulting shrinking productive elements. When you do that, Greece happens.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 24, 2014 9:39:30 GMT -5
And some poor choices are made because someone just goes with what they want rather than what would make sense. In this case, the woman in this article, rather than getting her teeth fixed with any money she earned CHOSE to get tattoos instead. Why would you do something like this, when you KNOW your appearance is causing employment issues? It kinda sounded like she made that choice in order to make a point, too. That was one of my issues with the Barbara Ehrenreich (sp?) books as well. They were well written and made interesting points, but it was difficult to totally buy into her premise (that being poor is hopeless, there is no possible way to get ahead, the system dooms you no matter how hard you work) when she kept deliberately or lazily making bad choices. Tough to tell if the bad choices were a one time slip, a pattern, or done to make the results prove her predetermined point.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Sept 24, 2014 9:41:58 GMT -5
Some poor choices are made if someone feels backed into a corner with no way that they can see to get out. And some poor choices are made because someone just goes with what they want rather than what would make sense. In this case, the woman in this article, rather than getting her teeth fixed with any money she earned CHOSE to get tattoos instead. Why would you do something like this, when you KNOW your appearance is causing employment issues? I have no idea.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Sept 24, 2014 9:49:38 GMT -5
It kinda sounded like she made that choice in order to make a point, too. That was one of my issues with the Barbara Ehrenreich (sp?) books as well. They were well written and made interesting points, but it was difficult to totally buy into her premise (that being poor is hopeless, there is no possible way to get ahead, the system dooms you no matter how hard you work) when she kept deliberately or lazily making bad choices. Tough to tell if the bad choices were a one time slip, a pattern, or done to make the results prove her predetermined point. I had the same reaction to her books as well. In Nickel and Dimed, it was fairly obvious that she had already made her conclusion beforehand and determined the results she wanted to achieve from her experiment and tailored her behavior to achieve those results. The other theme that resonated with me from that book was her continued astonishment that the working-class people she interacted with in the various jobs she did for the book never questioned why someone of her "obvious" educational and intellectual superiority would be working in a job like that.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 24, 2014 9:51:59 GMT -5
Overall, I've been pretty fortunate throughout my life in regards to finances and opportunities.
However, I have had some lean times, and would have been in pretty dire straights a few times without the bank of mom and dad.
When I first started with the government in 2007, I was making $15 an hour in a HCOLA area. My rent consumed 50% of my income, more than it should have, but I didn't have a choice. My living situation initially was precarious for the first few months because I couldn't sign a lease due to relocating for training. I remember one time I literally wouldn't have enough money to buy food without my parents timely assistance.
I was also in pretty dire straights in the weeks leading up to my court ruling. By the time I went back to work after my wrongful termination, I had about $300 to my name. And that was after I had borrowed money from my parents.
So while I've been fortunate, I can see how many who didn't have the opportunities I had and whose family couldn't or wasn't willing to help out during lean times might create a downward spiral that is extremely difficult to break.
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milee
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Post by milee on Sept 24, 2014 9:56:49 GMT -5
I had the same reaction to her books as well. In Nickel and Dimed, it was fairly obvious that she had already made her conclusion beforehand and determined the results she wanted to achieve from her experiment and tailored her behavior to achieve those results. The other theme that resonated with me from that book was her continued astonishment that the working-class people she interacted with in the various jobs she did for the book never questioned why someone of her "obvious" educational and intellectual superiority would be working in a job like that. Yes, it is astonishing that nobody recognized her inherent superiority and intelligence. I thought employers turned away employees who were too intelligent and thought too quickly?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2014 10:13:56 GMT -5
I'm not talking about electronics or bigger houses. I'm talking about making rent in a small facility. Yes, things have changed. Healthcare costs are out of control, but not so in other countries. Education costs are out of control also. For people working low or minimum wage job it is now customary to get few hours and no benefits. Why are we allowing this?Is it necessary? Isn't there a better way around it? I think it's allowed because despite the widening wealth gap, people at all levels still have enough to lose that they won't seriously rock the boat. Even if you're on food stamps and living in a room in a house, it's still food and shelter, something to lose. From what I can tell, historically people get really agitated and major upheavals happen when a good portion of people can't eat anymore. I do wish our set up was a bit more like Canada's or Germany's. It seems like we can do better than our current system, increase stability for good workers at all income levels if it's done carefully. There are so many moving parts our current situation though, a borked and disorderly immigration system, outsourcing of jobs to very cheap countries, automation, less and less vocational education in high schools due to budget cuts and liability, the prevalence of "must have" electronics and subscriptions eating money with monthly fees, the proliferation of credit cards and loans to anyone with a pulse which creates huge chances for compound interest to work against people, wide reliance on aggressive medical procedures that often have complications with no lifestyle changes, increasingly complex tax codes and retirement jargon and options that daunt people into not starting at all vs. automatic pensions... It seems like a clanging mess overall, trending in a rough direction. I'm not sure that simply legislating extra pay for USA workers is going to materially affect people for the better, and might worsen the situation in some cases, since the roots of many issues would still be firmly in place. A major issue is that many of our programs depend on endless growth. They're not realistic, and the successful ones get raided as short term solutions to other problems. Many things to address. I do think the deck is stacked pretty hard against average people right now. I was very scared at low wages, because I did know that I had to be ON IT to keep my balance, high alert for dangers, tracking every penny. It is tough. I would take personal hits if we could improve the country and help increase the odds that people can successfully navigate. We did not take aid because we left it for people who really needed it, we did not have an emergency. I just... also really don't want people to roll over and give up, saying bad decisions make no difference at all. We still have to make good decisions at higher wages; the margins are wider now, and we have good balance, but if we say "bad decisions don't matter," we'll topple right off the wide plank we're currently running on. Decisions matter to me, struggling matters, caring about things matters. Just my thoughts kind of rattling around.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 24, 2014 10:25:31 GMT -5
1) Not everyone had a job that paid well back in the day. There was plenty of poverty back then. Hell, if there wasn't then there would have been no need for Carter (him, right?) to start all the welfare programs to begin with! 2) Only 1.1% of workers (1.6 mil in 2012) make min wage. That's because it's suppose to be the MINIMUM if you stay there long - you're doing something wrong. It's supposed to be what you get paid when you have no skills. www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/367758/reminder-11-percent-us-workforce-makes-minimum-wage-jim-geraghty3) A 'Living Wage' should be enough to support YOU. And it's close to it in a lot of places - you just need to not have kids, live with roommates, not buy the newest iPhone, etc etc. All you need to live is a place to sleep and things to eat. It's all the other crap that we deem necessary that make life so expensive.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 24, 2014 10:58:37 GMT -5
A living wage for a single person is very different from a living wage when you have a couple of kids. A living wage in NYC is very different from a living wage in Alabama.
I'd add that a "living wage" can often easily support ONE person. Living wages are not necessarily meant to support a whole family.
A lot of the solution has to do with delaying a family until you're in a good position to support one. It sucks, it's a very cold reality, and we have no way of enforcing it without trampling on people's rights - but it is probably the single biggest thing a person can do to avoid a life of poverty, in my opinion.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 24, 2014 11:02:46 GMT -5
Yes, it is astonishing that nobody recognized her inherent superiority and intelligence. I thought employers turned away employees who were too intelligent and thought too quickly?Where did you get that idea? Ugh, I can't stand Barbara Ehrenreich for so many reasons. That book was a seriously frustrating read. She lost me after she insisted she "had" to have a car because a story about waiting for buses would not be interesting to read.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 24, 2014 11:03:52 GMT -5
When I got out of college, I made LESS than minimum wage at the time. That was legal to do when you are salaried and do not receive overtime.
My rent in Boston, a HCOL area took up over 50% of my income. I was budgeted to a gnat's ass.
I realized that getting pregnant was a phenomenally bad idea. I went to PP and made sure tht that was not going to happen. Secondly, I learned everything that was thrown in my direction. Any class that was available, if it had the least amount of info to my job, I took....on my own time and dime.
After a year, I got another job and did the same. I got a $1000 raise (per year) and that gave me breathing room. But I still did everything in my power to learn whatever I could. This job had better educational benefits, so when I became eligible, I took any graduate class that I considered relevant to my job.
My boss got a job offer in TX and asked me to go along. His job moved him, so he schlepped my stuff to his garage and moved my belongings with him on the moving van. I got a better raise this time, about $4000. But I was moving to a state that had no state tax and a lower COL. So I had a lot more breathing room, but not enough to support another person.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 24, 2014 11:04:06 GMT -5
justme, are you in my head or am I in yours?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2014 11:05:50 GMT -5
1) Not everyone had a job that paid well back in the day. There was plenty of poverty back then. Hell, if there wasn't then there would have been no need for Carter (him, right?) to start all the welfare programs to begin with! 3) A 'Living Wage' should be enough to support YOU. And it's close to it in a lot of places - you just need to not have kids, live with roommates, not buy the newest iPhone, etc etc. All you need to live is a place to sleep and things to eat. It's all the other crap that we deem necessary that make life so expensive. My understanding is that many as we know them were started as a result of the Great Depression under Roosevelt: www.welfareinfo.org/history/I think it's doable to live pared back lifestyle on low wages if someone is careful, we've done it, but that care, knowledge, and ability to calculate is important. DH's 5 siblings are... not doing so hot. Their navigation is messed up. They're going for every temptation that causes grinding, lingering repercussions. My parents were the wild children in their families, they rejected the stability of factory work in their home area and went to roam. They were pretty clueless about finances starting out, but couldn't really dig themselves in deep into debt, no company would loan tons of money to them while they were rambling around, that would've been crazy. At the time Their trade is roofing, and they've seen average wages go through the floor in their life time, just steadily dropping and dropping. They were insulated because they had their own small business, but lowered starting wages and average wage stagnation is a real thing. It could be we're just going back to a longer standing historical pattern and the boomer era was an anomaly, but I do suspect we as a nation can do better than we currently are.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 24, 2014 11:08:48 GMT -5
I realized that getting pregnant was a phenomenally bad idea. I went to PP and made sure tht that was not going to happen. Secondly, I learned everything that was thrown in my direction. Any class that was available, if it had the least amount of info to my job, I took....on my own time and dime.
Yup. And I know everyone jumps all over this statement because "accidents happen" but they truly, honestly don't if you're determined enough to avoid them. No one likes it but there is a 100% foolproof way to prevent pregnancy which can be used at any time by any person, causes zero side effects and costs $0. It's not anyone's preferred method but it does exist.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 24, 2014 11:10:16 GMT -5
... It could be we're just going back to a longer standing historical pattern and the boomer era was an anomaly, but I do suspect we as a nation can do better than we currently are.
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