Why the poor are poor

[Deleted]

Sept 22, 2014 15:33:17 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

If the "deck is stacked against her" it's because she stacked it herself. She admits she was in college but "wasn't ready". The opportunity was obviously there. She failed to grab it. That's her fault. She had children she couldn't afford. Also her (and baby daddy) fault. She alters her appearance to the point that those who write the checks find it unacceptable. That's her fault. Nothing was stacked against her. She dealt her own hand. She dyes her hair some ridiculous shade of blue and tats herself up and then expects to walk into a law office and get a job? Give me a break. I wouldn't hire her either. 

Was this in one of the links to the article?  What I read said she wasn't hired at the law office because of bad teeth and bad skin.  Her hair wasn't blue in the picture, either.

I figured the links were just more of the same.   I guess not?

[Pants]

Firebird - Seriously, were you bored today?!?!?!

[Deleted]

Sept 22, 2014 12:24:06 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Sept 22, 2014 10:38:50 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I thought we were trying to move beyond that and weren't supposed to judge by appearances?

Seriously, one of the smartest people I know is my BIL.  He was born in the deep south and speaks with a very heavy slow southern accent.  However, anyone who assumed he was stupid or low class would be absolutely wrong.

I guess it's a good thing that the guy I just hired with the low-class south side accent has a manager who grew up in the same area and understands some words are said differently depending on where you are from.  

Trying to associate someone with a socioeconomic or behavioral class based simply on accent is IMHO the second worse type of stereotyping there is.   

There is a difference between an accent and speaking in a way that tends to indicate poverty. A southern accent when you grew up in the south isn't anything worth judging. Being able to turn off the ghetto & speak proper is a whole different thing...I knew a lot of people that could & a lot that couldn't. Those that can't aren't going to get anywhere.  If you can't keep from saying ghetto phrases like "already", "yeah, man", or "fuck that shit" during an interview you aren't going to get a decent job. Like I said, I knew a lot that couldn't turn it off, they literally never learned how to speak decent english or even act proper. Not any different than showing up to an interview in a wife-beater or pants around your knees. You will be judged for it.

My speech is peppered with Ebonics, sometimes slang, and I have a southern accent. Oh dear!

The way I talk may show a little in my posts sometimes, but in every day life, I talk much differently than I write here. The words I use, the sentence structure, everything is different.

Since my Mom was and still is huge on proper English and all that jazz, I do know how to speak correctly. When I was very young, I talked like my Mom and got teased for it, so Ebonics became a habit to stop the teasing. But I can still talk widout makin 2 werds 1 werd, I don hafta be usin made-up werds or sayin da righ werd the wrong way even doe I know that ain't how you spose to say em, and I can put em tagether usin da righ kinda grammar, cause my Momma use ta hate that I talk like dis. Almost everything about my speech can and does change according to the setting, who I'm talking to and why. I'm sure the accent stays, even with proper pronunciation. Shrug.

If I had a job interview tomorrow, I'd dye my hair, take my nose ring out and show up looking and sounding like a competent, intelligent individual. I call it playing levels. Sometimes you have to adapt to survive or thrive and not everyone knows how to do it. They only know how to operate on one level.

 

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 22, 2014 16:11:09 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Sept 22, 2014 15:33:17 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

If the "deck is stacked against her" it's because she stacked it herself. She admits she was in college but "wasn't ready". The opportunity was obviously there. She failed to grab it. That's her fault. She had children she couldn't afford. Also her (and baby daddy) fault. She alters her appearance to the point that those who write the checks find it unacceptable. That's her fault. Nothing was stacked against her. She dealt her own hand. She dyes her hair some ridiculous shade of blue and tats herself up and then expects to walk into a law office and get a job? Give me a break. I wouldn't hire her either. 

Was this in one of the links to the article?  What I read said she wasn't hired at the law office because of bad teeth and bad skin.  Her hair wasn't blue in the picture, either.

I figured the links were just more of the same.   I guess not?

I clicked on the link to the right hand side which is more of an up close shot (same picture).  Her hair is tinted blue...add that to the "bad religion" tshirt and tattoos and she just screams professional   Her fucked up teeth are the least of her worries.

[Shooby]

""At one chain I was required to sign a contract stating that I was an at-will employee, that I would be part-time with no benefits, and that if I took another job without permission I would be subject to termination because the company expected me to be able to come in whenever they found it necessary.

And yes, this is legal.""

This excerpt does make a good point. Some places make moonlighting a fire able offense. And many employers want 24/7 availability with no on call compensation.

[zibazinski]

Fact is dont make babies when you're incapable of supporting yourself and then whine you're poor. You're poor because you CHOSE to be poor. Because of these stupid safety nets we have people who can't make a good choice to save their own lives, now responsible for others. Another generation of children with no chance. 

[billisonboard]

Sept 22, 2014 19:47:10 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Fact is dont make babies when you're incapable of supporting yourself and then whine you're poor. You're poor because you CHOSE to be poor. Because of these stupid safety nets we have people who can't make a good choice to save their own lives, now responsible for others. Another generation of children with no chance. 

If there were no poor prior to there being "stupid safety nets" this would make perfect sense.

[zibazinski]

There certainly was poor and a lot of them grew up and said, " not for me or mine." Hunger is a huge motivator to not breed what you can't feed. 

[billisonboard]

Sept 22, 2014 19:54:16 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

There certainly was poor and a lot of them grew up and said, " not for me or mine." Hunger is a huge motivator to not breed what you can't feed. 

Just as there are now.

[zibazinski]

Now there is no motivation. You're rewarded for having babies you can't support. The fact is now you have little chance of ever becoming anything and your kids are probably screwed as well. 

[Deleted]

Sept 22, 2014 18:42:32 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Sept 22, 2014 16:11:09 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Was this in one of the links to the article?  What I read said she wasn't hired at the law office because of bad teeth and bad skin.  Her hair wasn't blue in the picture, either.

I figured the links were just more of the same.   I guess not?

I clicked on the link to the right hand side which is more of an up close shot (same picture).  Her hair is tinted blue...add that to the "bad religion" tshirt and tattoos and she just screams professional   Her fucked up teeth are the least of her worries.

Why are you are assuming that publicity photo is a picture of her as she applied for the job at the lawyer's office?  I suspect she looks both better and worse in the picture since it's promotional. 

I think you guys can discredit her without really making stuff worse than it really is.  Bad teeth really are a deal breaker in a job where you work with the public.

On a different note, she is startlingly articulate.

[billisonboard]

Sept 22, 2014 19:59:57 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Now there is no motivation. You're rewarded for having babies you can't support. The fact is now you have little chance of ever becoming anything and your kids are probably screwed as well. 

A shotgun wedding husband was the way women used to be rewarded for getting pregnant.

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 22, 2014 20:20:18 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Sept 22, 2014 18:42:32 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I clicked on the link to the right hand side which is more of an up close shot (same picture).  Her hair is tinted blue...add that to the "bad religion" tshirt and tattoos and she just screams professional   Her fucked up teeth are the least of her worries.

Why are you are assuming that publicity photo is a picture of her as she applied for the job at the lawyer's office?  I suspect she looks both better and worse in the picture since it's promotional. 

I think you guys can discredit her without really making stuff worse than it really is.  Bad teeth really are a deal breaker in a job where you work with the public.

On a different note, she is startlingly articulate.

I'm actually not trying to discredit her.  Her "look" goes hand in hand with what I expect from someone like her.  I've seen it before...from the people complaining that they can't get jobs.

But you are right...I have no way of knowing what she looked like when she interviewed.  I'm making assumptions based on what I think of her. 

She is very articulate.

[zibazinski]

Oh, well, don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time.

[Deleted]

Everybody can't be on top. What would happen if there was no one to work the low-paying jobs that people frown on? The world as we know it would grind to a halt.

And when people with degrees are reduced to applying for the same jobs high school graduates are applying for just to have some kind of job, I can see how a person that would catch hell trying to get a degree might wonder if it's really worth it. Everyone's not going to be the best and the brightest and of course nobody really wants to be poor, but we're losing the middle ground imo. I think trying to figure out why the poor are poor is more complicated than we like to pretend. It's not always as simple as laziness or stupidity.

[Angel!]

Sept 22, 2014 20:20:18 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

Sept 22, 2014 18:42:32 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I clicked on the link to the right hand side which is more of an up close shot (same picture).  Her hair is tinted blue...add that to the "bad religion" tshirt and tattoos and she just screams professional   Her fucked up teeth are the least of her worries.

Why are you are assuming that publicity photo is a picture of her as she applied for the job at the lawyer's office?  I suspect she looks both better and worse in the picture since it's promotional. 

I think you guys can discredit her without really making stuff worse than it really is.  Bad teeth really are a deal breaker in a job where you work with the public.

I agree, yet she blames bad teeth and skin as reasons she can't get a good job. And she blames those things on being poor.

In reality there are probably a lot more reasons she can't get a good job, she just wants to find reasons it isn't her fault.

[Angel!]

Sept 22, 2014 19:42:28 GMT -5 Shooby said:

""At one chain I was required to sign a contract stating that I was an at-will employee, that I would be part-time with no benefits, and that if I took another job without permission I would be subject to termination because the company expected me to be able to come in whenever they found it necessary.

And yes, this is legal.""

This excerpt does make a good point. Some places make moonlighting a fire able offense. And many employers want 24/7 availability with no on call compensation.

Some places this is true. Not all places. And this should be incentive to work hard and get a better job or move up the ladder, but she chooses to make herself a victim.

Life is hard, you can either tough it out and work hard or walk around and complain how everything is someone else's fault. You will never get anywhere if you choose the second, but most people in poverty do and that is why they can't get out.

[haapai]

This was an ugly thread in it's first rendition and I'm not liking version 2.0 much better.  I don't like some of what I've learned been reminded about my fellow ymers today. 

[Angel!]

Sept 22, 2014 21:31:25 GMT -5 haapai said:

This was an ugly thread in it's first rendition and I'm not liking version 2.0 much better.  I don't like some of what I've learned been reminded about my fellow ymers today. 

I actually haven't found this thread to be too bad. Not too much mention of breeders living off the system. But, then maybe you view me as part of the problem and that is why I don't see it.

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 22, 2014 21:31:25 GMT -5 haapai said:

This was an ugly thread in it's first rendition and I'm not liking version 2.0 much better.  I don't like some of what I've learned been reminded about my fellow ymers today. 

I actually thought this was a pretty calm thread

[Green Eyed Lady]

Sept 22, 2014 20:34:34 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

Everybody can't be on top. What would happen if there was no one to work the low-paying jobs that people frown on? The world as we know it would grind to a halt.

And when people with degrees are reduced to applying for the same jobs high school graduates are applying for just to have some kind of job, I can see how a person that would catch hell trying to get a degree might wonder if it's really worth it. Everyone's not going to be the best and the brightest and of course nobody really wants to be poor, but we're losing the middle ground imo. I think trying to figure out why the poor are poor is more complicated than we like to pretend. It's not always as simple as laziness or stupidity.

I totally agree.  I'm sure there are as many different reasons people are poor as there are for people who are rich.  Some rich people inherited it, some got lucky and won the lottery, some played a little bit of money in to a whole lot of money by being very smart, some people just plain worked their butts off, etc.  I surely wasn't saying all poor people are poor because they are stupid and lazy.  I was just speaking about this particular individual.  I don't think anyone here said she is stupid.  I certainly didn't and, in fact, stated just the opposite.  The choices she has made are stupid.  I don't think anybody with half a brain could question that.  As for being lazy, I have no idea.

The danger I see in canonizing this woman is that there are people out there who are going to believe her.  For example, I think Rush is full of youknowwhat, but some people actually believe the stuff he has to say.  People are going to believe her - that there is no way out - no point in working to better themselves because they are destined to fail.  Might as well have more babies, smoke another carton, get another tat and sit back and enjoy life's small pleasures because this is all there is ever going to be.  Says so on the internet, after all.

That's just simply not true.  There are ways out - ways up0.  You have people right here on this board who have found them with a lot less resources than this young woman evidently had available to her.  Like it or not, she is responsible for her lot in life prior to this time. And you know what? She's found a way out while all the time loudly proclaiming there isn't one.

[Deleted]

I honestly didn't think she was saying there was no way out... She was working two jobs and going to school after all... 

I think she was trying to explain how people get trapped in a cycle of thinking there is no way out... And acting accordingly.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Perhaps, Oped.  I wish this young woman and her children the very best of everything.  I hope she uses that very strong mind of hers to make all of their lives better. I get so incredibly angry at people who justify their self-destructive behavior that I don't always see things like this clearly. 

[NastyWoman]

Sept 22, 2014 14:59:41 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

What about this face of poverty?  I bet that these people don't "sound lower class":

www.salon.com/2014/09/21/professors_on_food_stamps_the_shocking_true_story_of_academia_in_2014/

I am quoting myself because I don't believe may have read this article or they just don't wish to discuss/understand the point I was trying to make. 

Poverty is as much the result of choices made by society as a whole as by poor choices/or lack of good opportunities by individuals.  I do believe there are people out there who play the system (anything for a free buck) but I believe even more that for many poverty is not a choice, it is imposed on them by circumstances/life/whatever and just because many of us (most certainly not a representative sample of society) have been able to get past difficult times does NOT mean that "anyone can do it". 

[Miss Tequila]

Sept 23, 2014 1:30:44 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:59:41 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

What about this face of poverty?  I bet that these people don't "sound lower class":

www.salon.com/2014/09/21/professors_on_food_stamps_the_shocking_true_story_of_academia_in_2014/

I am quoting myself because I don't believe may have read this article or they just don't wish to discuss/understand the point I was trying to make. 

Poverty is as much the result of choices made by society as a whole as by poor choices/or lack of good opportunities by individuals.  I do believe there are people out there who play the system (anything for a free buck) but I believe even more that for many poverty is not a choice, it is imposed on them by circumstances/life/whatever and just because many of us (most certainly not a representative sample of society) have been able to get past difficult times does NOT mean that "anyone can do it". 

So her choices (screwing up her shot at college, getting pregnant while living in a flea bag motel, etx) had nothing tondo with her being poor? Yes, her poverty was imposed on her by circumstances, but they were circumstances that she created

[Nazgul Girl]

   I think that the term " ghetto " is slung around a little bit too often.   My area is quite racially and religiously mixed.   So, if I hear someone talking "ghetto,", that doesn't mean that they don't have a masters degree or doctorate.   Almost every African-American that I know can dress up the way they speak for business, and some African-Americans only speak with perfect grammar and diction.    I think that too many assumptions are made based on the way others overhear someone speaking casually.   

[The Captain]

Sept 23, 2014 6:29:30 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

   I think that the term " ghetto " is slung around a little bit too often.   My area is quite racially and religiously mixed.   So, if I hear someone talking "ghetto,", that doesn't mean that they don't have a masters degree or doctorate.   Almost every African-American that I know can dress up the way they speak for business, and some African-Americans only speak with perfect grammar and diction.    I think that too many assumptions are made based on the way others overhear someone speaking casually.   

Thank you for saying this!!!

I kinda danced around this topic but didn't want to come out and hit on this  directly.  I actually had a candidate once who I had to convince the other two hiring managers to extend an offer.  They couldn't get past his speech patterns and I was focused on his technical responses to my questions.

To be fair the other managers didn't head up the same area I did so they were focused on fit and personality.  My area tends to attract a lot of non-native speakers so we're used to this.

I often wonder how much this built in bias contributes to the lack of mobility in some areas even with equal education and effort.

[Angel!]

Sept 23, 2014 1:30:44 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Sept 22, 2014 14:59:41 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

What about this face of poverty?  I bet that these people don't "sound lower class":

www.salon.com/2014/09/21/professors_on_food_stamps_the_shocking_true_story_of_academia_in_2014/

I am quoting myself because I don't believe may have read this article or they just don't wish to discuss/understand the point I was trying to make. 

Poverty is as much the result of choices made by society as a whole as by poor choices/or lack of good opportunities by individuals.  I do believe there are people out there who play the system (anything for a free buck) but I believe even more that for many poverty is not a choice, it is imposed on them by circumstances/life/whatever and just because many of us (most certainly not a representative sample of society) have been able to get past difficult times does NOT mean that "anyone can do it". 

Opting to be an adjunct professor or pursue any career that pays virtually nothing is also a choice. I think a professor in poverty is making poor choices as well, just different poor choices than someone trying to raise kids working fast food.

[Angel!]

Sept 23, 2014 6:29:30 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

   I think that the term " ghetto " is slung around a little bit too often.   My area is quite racially and religiously mixed.   So, if I hear someone talking "ghetto,", that doesn't mean that they don't have a masters degree or doctorate.   Almost every African-American that I know can dress up the way they speak for business, and some African-Americans only speak with perfect grammar and diction.    I think that too many assumptions are made based on the way others overhear someone speaking casually.   

How many have you worked with that live in poverty? Many people can turn it off, they can get decent jobs. My ex often spoke similar to pink, filled with slang, cuss words, eubonics, and what not. But he could turn it off and speak proper. Before the alcohol and his meltdown he never had a problem getting a full-time job despite the lack of a degree because he knew how to present himself.

But I worked with many people, most younger, many who were in gangs growing up, who had no such skill. They had a difficult time finding and keepings jobs because they couldn't do it and that is part of the reason they were stuck in poverty.

[billisonboard]

Sept 23, 2014 7:01:48 GMT -5 Angel! said:

...
How many have you worked with that live in poverty? Many people can turn it off, they can get decent jobs. My ex often spoke similar to pink, filled with slang, cuss words, eubonics, and what not. But he could turn it off and speak proper. Before the alcohol and his meltdown he never had a problem getting a full-time job despite the lack of a degree because he knew how to present himself.

...

Shouldn't this read "... he knew how to present (someone he wasn't)"?