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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 8:08:40 GMT -5
... How many have you worked with that live in poverty? Many people can turn it off, they can get decent jobs. My ex often spoke similar to pink, filled with slang, cuss words, eubonics, and what not. But he could turn it off and speak proper. Before the alcohol and his meltdown he never had a problem getting a full-time job despite the lack of a degree because he knew how to present himself. ... Shouldn't this read "... he knew how to present (someone he wasn't)"? So? Nothing wrong with playing to the audience at hand.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 23, 2014 8:17:33 GMT -5
... How many have you worked with that live in poverty? Many people can turn it off, they can get decent jobs. My ex often spoke similar to pink, filled with slang, cuss words, eubonics, and what not. But he could turn it off and speak proper. Before the alcohol and his meltdown he never had a problem getting a full-time job despite the lack of a degree because he knew how to present himself. ... Shouldn't this read "... he knew how to present (someone he wasn't)"? I would suggest that one individual can, and often does, fullfill many roles. The persona I present to my family is very different than the persona I present at work. Is one of them fake in your opinion?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2014 8:18:42 GMT -5
... Before the alcohol and his meltdown ... ... Shouldn't this read "... he knew how to present (someone he wasn't)"? So? Nothing wrong with playing to the audience at hand. Maybe and maybe not.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 23, 2014 8:20:22 GMT -5
... How many have you worked with that live in poverty? Many people can turn it off, they can get decent jobs. My ex often spoke similar to pink, filled with slang, cuss words, eubonics, and what not. But he could turn it off and speak proper. Before the alcohol and his meltdown he never had a problem getting a full-time job despite the lack of a degree because he knew how to present himself. ... Shouldn't this read "... he knew how to present (someone he wasn't)"? More like presenting a different side of yourself. Most of us act differently in different environments. The way we act in front of our parents, the way we act with friends, the way we act with a big boss, the way we act at school, the way we act at church, the way we act at a concert, etc. Are any of those not you? They are all you, just you acting appropriately for the audience and environment. It is a good social skill to have.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2014 8:32:36 GMT -5
Shouldn't this read "... he knew how to present (someone he wasn't)"? I would suggest that one individual can, and often does, fullfill many roles. The persona I present to my family is very different than the persona I present at work. Is one of them fake in your opinion? I can't speak of you, I can only speak of myself. All of the public roles that I take on are fake. An excellent discussion of "veiling" can be found here: Finite and Infinite Games J Carse - 2011 - books.google.com
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2014 8:39:10 GMT -5
Shouldn't this read "... he knew how to present (someone he wasn't)"? More like presenting a different side of yourself. Most of us act differently in different environments. The way we act in front of our parents, the way we act with friends, the way we act with a big boss, the way we act at school, the way we act at church, the way we act at a concert, etc. Are any of those not you? They are all you, just you acting appropriately for the audience and environment. It is a good social skill to have. Or is it the cause of social ills? What is the effect on the soul for the person who must mask critical elements of themselves for most of their day?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 8:47:16 GMT -5
More like presenting a different side of yourself. Most of us act differently in different environments. The way we act in front of our parents, the way we act with friends, the way we act with a big boss, the way we act at school, the way we act at church, the way we act at a concert, etc. Are any of those not you? They are all you, just you acting appropriately for the audience and environment. It is a good social skill to have. Or is it the cause of social ills? What is the effect on the soul for the person who must mask critical elements of themselves for most of their day? I think it depends on how "critical" the critical elements are. I don't think withholding swearing is going to stress the soul of most. But doing something like working working in an abortion clinic when you're a Catholic might.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Sept 23, 2014 8:50:20 GMT -5
I would suggest that one individual can, and often does, fullfill many roles. The persona I present to my family is very different than the persona I present at work. Is one of them fake in your opinion? I can't speak of you, I can only speak of myself. All of the public roles that I take on are fake. An excellent discussion of "veiling" can be found here: Finite and Infinite Games J Carse - 2011 - books.google.comI tend to think of them as masks, which I can take off and on at will/as needed. And now I have bits and pieces of several songs going though my head.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2014 8:51:45 GMT -5
Or is it the cause of social ills? What is the effect on the soul for the person who must mask critical elements of themselves for most of their day? I think it depends on how "critical" the critical elements are. I don't think withholding swearing is going to stress the soul of most. But doing something like working working in an abortion clinic when you're a Catholic might. I think it is very individual. What causes one to turn to alcohol? What causes one to have a mental breakdown?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 8:55:18 GMT -5
Shouldn't this read "... he knew how to present (someone he wasn't)"? DH was raised in Missouri (that's pronounced "Missourah"!) and he lived mostly on farms. When he went to school in NYC his accent was so thick the person helping him select courses acidly suggested English for his foreign language. I can attest to the fact that he talks like city folk now but I bet when he went back to visit family he didn't! Even now when we're at the local farmer's market (same general area where he was raised), a little of his accent comes back. I don't think of shifting your speech to suit the audience as any kind of falsehood- more like being a chameleon. You're still you inside, but you adjust to your surroundings. I agree with the original observations, though- if you can't speak something close to standard English you'll have a hard time getting a decent job. It doesn't mean you have to speak like that at home and with your friends, but you need to be able to when the occasion calls for it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2014 8:57:23 GMT -5
... I tend to think of them as masks, which I can take off and on at will/as needed. ... I think that skill you indicate you possess is the key to mental health. I don't think it is a universally possessed skill.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 8:59:44 GMT -5
I think it depends on how "critical" the critical elements are. I don't think withholding swearing is going to stress the soul of most. But doing something like working working in an abortion clinic when you're a Catholic might. I think it is very individual. What causes one to turn to alcohol? What causes one to have a mental breakdown? Having witnessed one myself, I don't think it's from something as simple as withholding eubonics in a job interview. There's a lot that goes into a alcoholism/breakdowns, and I put genetics really high on the list.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 9:00:28 GMT -5
More like presenting a different side of yourself. Most of us act differently in different environments. The way we act in front of our parents, the way we act with friends, the way we act with a big boss, the way we act at school, the way we act at church, the way we act at a concert, etc. Are any of those not you? They are all you, just you acting appropriately for the audience and environment. It is a good social skill to have. Or is it the cause of social ills? What is the effect on the soul for the person who must mask critical elements of themselves for most of their day? When I look and act appropriately in business or certain social settings, I'm still the same person as I am at any other time, I just present myself differently. My values and morals don't change. What critical elements are you thinking of?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Sept 23, 2014 9:03:08 GMT -5
Some people just tend to pick up the accent of the people around them. I have this tendency, to a degree. My BIL, born and raised in west Michigan moved to Cincinnati in his 20s and now has a pronounced southern accent.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2014 9:06:39 GMT -5
... Having witnessed one myself, I don't think it's from something as simple as withholding eubonics in a job interview. There's a lot that goes into a alcoholism/breakdowns, and I put genetics really high on the list. If only the need to withhold was limited to that brief time. If only it was limited to language. But I don't think it usually is that limited.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 23, 2014 9:07:25 GMT -5
I have a dear friend in Tennessee. My family can always tell when I've gotten off the phone with Clara!
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2014 9:19:46 GMT -5
Or is it the cause of social ills? What is the effect on the soul for the person who must mask critical elements of themselves for most of their day? When I look and act appropriately in business or certain social settings, I'm still the same person as I am at any other time, I just present myself differently. My values and morals don't change. What critical elements are you thinking of? I think you are most fortunate that your social world conforms exactly to your values and morals. Again, speaking only for myself: I have no ambition to do a job that has enough economic value to allow me earn enough to ever retire. I am working in a job that will allow that. My soul screams for relief. I am not giving in although it is a daily struggle to stay out of the local bar and\or not quit my job.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 23, 2014 9:22:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 9:26:02 GMT -5
Have you ever watched "true crime" shows where black police officers speak clear, conventional English when they're describing the scene/context, but when they speak with suspects whose accents are so hard to understand that they need subtitles, they shift to something closer to the speech of the person they're interrogating? Great skill to have.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 23, 2014 9:33:22 GMT -5
It seems the author has a rather fatalistic outlook like "no point in trying because I'll always be poor."
I don't buy into that, many YM'ers grew up poor and are doing well. It can be done.
I can understand the poor face significant challenges, and they can feed off of each other and create a never ending cycle. But some challenges seem self imposed and completely baffling. The reliance on payday loans and check cashing places is chief among them. Is it really that hard to get a bank account and direct deposit? Why pay the outrageous interest rates when you have so little money to begin with?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 9:34:47 GMT -5
When I look and act appropriately in business or certain social settings, I'm still the same person as I am at any other time, I just present myself differently. My values and morals don't change. What critical elements are you thinking of? I think you are most fortunate that your social world conforms exactly to your values and morals. Again, speaking only for myself: I have no ambition to do a job that has enough economic value to allow me earn enough to ever retire. I am working in a job that will allow that. My soul screams for relief. I am not giving in although it is a daily struggle to stay out of the local bar and\or not quit my job. I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean, but I'm trying! I'm not quite wide awake lol My job is not fulfilling at all. I think I understand what you mean about your soul screaming for relief from something you spend so much time doing that adds nothing to your life besides a paycheck. I dealt with that somewhat by working on changing my attitude about how I view work. I'm confused about why you think my social world confroms exactly to my values and morals. It doesn't. But I still don't flip flop about what I believe in and what I think is important, regardless of where I am and who I'm with. I did understand enough to want to tell you that I sincerely hope your struggles get better.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 23, 2014 9:42:47 GMT -5
The first step though to making changes to your life is committing to change. Taking such a fatalistic approach will absolutely guarantee you will always be poor.
And yeah, you may not ever achieve the goal 100%. But if you aim for the sun you'll at least land in the stars.
And I don't see how anyone justifies smoking. Poor or not.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Sept 23, 2014 9:47:10 GMT -5
I think that the term " ghetto " is slung around a little bit too often. My area is quite racially and religiously mixed. So, if I hear someone talking "ghetto,", that doesn't mean that they don't have a masters degree or doctorate. Almost every African-American that I know can dress up the way they speak for business, and some African-Americans only speak with perfect grammar and diction. I think that too many assumptions are made based on the way others overhear someone speaking casually. Thank you for saying this!!! I kinda danced around this topic but didn't want to come out and hit on this directly. I actually had a candidate once who I had to convince the other two hiring managers to extend an offer. They couldn't get past his speech patterns and I was focused on his technical responses to my questions. To be fair the other managers didn't head up the same area I did so they were focused on fit and personality. My area tends to attract a lot of non-native speakers so we're used to this. I often wonder how much this built in bias contributes to the lack of mobility in some areas even with equal education and effort. I've seen the bias in action and it's very offensive. Someone from a certain big city around here may have a masters degree and speak perfect English, with a D-town accent. The person was shut out of a supervisory job. I asked her if she was going to file a complaint re: the discrimination. She said, " No, I'm going to go work at Univ. of Mich. instead, " and she got a supervisory job offer there. She had graduated with a masters in hospital administration. She wasn't promoted because she was a black woman, in my opinion. She was a biller with me at a local Catholic hospital, and it was okay for her to work there in that position, but not as a supervisor ? Hmmm, I don't think so. I left that hospital soon after for a far better job, and never looked back.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 23, 2014 10:11:51 GMT -5
Shouldn't this read "... he knew how to present (someone he wasn't)"? DH was raised in Missouri (that's pronounced "Missourah"!) and he lived mostly on farms. When he went to school in NYC his accent was so thick the person helping him select courses acidly suggested English for his foreign language. I can attest to the fact that he talks like city folk now but I bet when he went back to visit family he didn't! Even now when we're at the local farmer's market (same general area where he was raised), a little of his accent comes back. I don't think of shifting your speech to suit the audience as any kind of falsehood- more like being a chameleon. You're still you inside, but you adjust to your surroundings. I agree with the original observations, though- if you can't speak something close to standard English you'll have a hard time getting a decent job. It doesn't mean you have to speak like that at home and with your friends, but you need to be able to when the occasion calls for it. We had an admin in in our lab group like this. She was raised in rural KY, and I never realized she was putting on an act until her daughter came in for the day. Daughter had a huge accent, you could barely understand her. I asked her about it, and she said that once she got to college she realized that she needed to lose the accent quickly in order to be 'professional'. The admin told me that she was trying to help her daughter lose her accent but realized that until she got out of elementary school, she was fighting a losing battle. OTOH, I was traveling to Scotland for a research meeting in Scotland with a German woman and one who was born and raised in TX (also with a thick accent). I would up being the one to communicate for the group, as it was difficult for the local Scots to understand them, and they had difficulty understanding the Scottish accent.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 23, 2014 10:20:02 GMT -5
It seems the author has a rather fatalistic outlook like "no point in trying because I'll always be poor."
I don't buy into that, many YM'ers grew up poor and are doing well. It can be done.
I can understand the poor face significant challenges, and they can feed off of each other and create a never ending cycle. But some challenges seem self imposed and completely baffling. The reliance on payday loans and check cashing places is chief among them. Is it really that hard to get a bank account and direct deposit? Why pay the outrageous interest rates when you have so little money to begin with? If you have abused the privileges of bank accounts, yes, it is. All 4 of my dad's wife's kids are unbanked and work on a cash only basis. Their mom has an account and cashes checks for them.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2014 10:48:31 GMT -5
... I'm confused about why you think my social world confroms exactly to my values and morals. It doesn't. But I still don't flip flop about what I believe in and what I think is important, regardless of where I am and who I'm with. ... My mistake. I made the assumption that they conformed. Other options would be that you hold onto your values and morals but that you act counter to them or that one of your values is that you do what it takes to get along and that you feel that it is morally okay to do whatever is necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 10:52:53 GMT -5
I go to work everyday and kiss the ass of people who just got out of prison and other lovelies in society who get payday loans. I am NOT that person in my real life, where I prefer to be alone in a quiet environment.
I am also very "get it done" at work, while I don't always manage that at home. I figure my company "rents" me for the time they are paying me, so I do what they want.
In my real life, I don't do predatory lending or losers. But, for those 8-10 hours a day, I am all about towing the company line about how great it is for you to get a loan at 400+% interest.....
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 23, 2014 12:18:53 GMT -5
When I look and act appropriately in business or certain social settings, I'm still the same person as I am at any other time, I just present myself differently. My values and morals don't change. What critical elements are you thinking of? I think you are most fortunate that your social world conforms exactly to your values and morals. Again, speaking only for myself: I have no ambition to do a job that has enough economic value to allow me earn enough to ever retire. I am working in a job that will allow that. My soul screams for relief. I am not giving in although it is a daily struggle to stay out of the local bar and\or not quit my job. That sounds more like just hating the job that hating your persona at the job. I do suppose if who you have to be at work is so far off your true self that you are faking it, that would be very tiresome. My work self isn't that different from my home self, I just don't cuss & am sometimes less opinionated is the main difference. I don't feel like it is an act, it is just my natural self in that environment. It isn't difficult at all because I don't have to conciously think to not cuss, I just don't. Maybe some people are just better at that skill than others, I think I have heard it has to do with emotional IQ. There is a restaurant we eat at often, the owner is the most bubbly person I have ever met. "It is a beautiful day today, isn't it!!" "Oh my gosh, that just sounds delicious!!" "Thank you so much for being patient, I apologize!!" If I had to act like for my job I would want to freaking kill myself after an hour. We have all decided it must just be her personality, which makes this a perfect job for her. You do need a job that lines enough with your personality that it isn't tiresome & awful.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 23, 2014 12:50:30 GMT -5
It seems the author has a rather fatalistic outlook like "no point in trying because I'll always be poor."
I don't buy into that, many YM'ers grew up poor and are doing well. It can be done.
I can understand the poor face significant challenges, and they can feed off of each other and create a never ending cycle. But some challenges seem self imposed and completely baffling. The reliance on payday loans and check cashing places is chief among them. Is it really that hard to get a bank account and direct deposit? Why pay the outrageous interest rates when you have so little money to begin with? If you have abused the privileges of bank accounts, yes, it is. All 4 of my dad's wife's kids are unbanked and work on a cash only basis. Their mom has an account and cashes checks for them. What do you mean abusing the privileges of bank accounts? You mean if you overdraw too much a bank will shut down your account?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 23, 2014 12:54:07 GMT -5
If you have abused the privileges of bank accounts, yes, it is. All 4 of my dad's wife's kids are unbanked and work on a cash only basis. Their mom has an account and cashes checks for them. What do you mean abusing the privileges of bank accounts? You mean if you overdraw too much a bank will shut down your account? If you overdraw & don't pay it back in a timely fashion or screw up an account in some other way, then you go into chexsystems. Kind of like a credit report, but specific to bank accounts. You likely will be unable to open an account at any bank for 5 years.
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