Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 23, 2014 12:57:09 GMT -5
Hmmm, makes sense. But still, I would think a poor person could manage to not overdraw a bank account.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 23, 2014 13:04:21 GMT -5
Hmmm, makes sense. But still, I would think a poor person could manage to not overdraw a bank account. Yeah, if they kept a checkbook. Many people (an not just poor people) look up how much they have in their account & assume anything in there is avaiable. They completely forget they wrote a check for rent that hasn't posted yet. But, now they have spent $100 on clothes (because they thought they could, yay magic extra money!), and are overdrawn. Not only that, but the bank will throw a fee on top of that, plus some additional fees for everyday they can't make it right. And payday is a week and a half away & at that time the cell phone bill is due & we will be out of food. The extra money is spent & they are going down the hole with no way to make it right. So you just walk away because you literally can't afford to fix the mistake.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 13:07:19 GMT -5
Hmmm, makes sense. But still, I would think a poor person could manage to not overdraw a bank account. The simple solution is for the bank to not permit it at the source. If the money isn't in the account you can't use the debit card. That is what happens here. But the bank allows it and then charges outrageous fees that increase the problem exponentially.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 23, 2014 13:07:19 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see that, but that is still a self imposed problem. Just a little discipline would ensure that doesn't happen. But yes, when you get into that situation as a poor person, I can see how you couldn't get back out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 13:16:35 GMT -5
We had an admin in in our lab group like this. She was raised in rural KY, and I never realized she was putting on an act until her daughter came in for the day. Daughter had a huge accent, you could barely understand her. I asked her about it, and she said that once she got to college she realized that she needed to lose the accent quickly in order to be 'professional'. The admin told me that she was trying to help her daughter lose her accent but realized that until she got out of elementary school, she was fighting a losing battle. OTOH, I was traveling to Scotland for a research meeting in Scotland with a German woman and one who was born and raised in TX (also with a thick accent). I would up being the one to communicate for the group, as it was difficult for the local Scots to understand them, and they had difficulty understanding the Scottish accent. Ironically, as I've gotten into more diverse work environments, I've found it even more important that everyone be able to speak English in a way that's close to Midwestern US or BBC British. My field tended to attract workers from Asia and India in particular, and when the conference call includes people from Switzerland, NYC, India and China, a strong accent of any kind might be incomprehensible to others on the call.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 23, 2014 13:16:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see that, but that is still a self imposed problem. Just a little discipline would ensure that doesn't happen.
Yes and no. I am SO glad that I can pay all my bills online now and send out electronic checks which clear the instant I hit "Pay Bill." No float at all - I haven't used paper checks for anything in at least a year, probably closer to two. Life is so much easier now.
I freely admit that I was HORRIBLE about knowing my balance before this wonderful phenomenon. I hated writing down every single purchase in a checkbook and it was really frustrating when I would have plenty of money in the account to pay all my bills but then constantly wonder (after I'd paid them) exactly how much I had left in my account and whether this check or that one had cleared yet.
And I've always made plenty of money to cover my bills plus compensate for my screwups. I generally had enough cushion that even if I had an "oh shit" moment I still had at least a couple hundred bucks in my account. I can't imagine how tough it would have been to keep track of the money coming and going from a checking account back in the days of paper checks if I was barely making ends meet.
Yeah, we can say it's all about discipline but in reality that's too simplistic. We all have our strengths and weaknesses - some people are not good with money. I realize that's YM heresy but it's true.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 13:22:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see that, but that is still a self imposed problem. Just a little discipline would ensure that doesn't happen. But yes, when you get into that situation as a poor person, I can see how you couldn't get back out. Gonna weigh in here. DH and I have been in the trenches for our early years, living on $11/hr to support both of us, no food stamps or rental assistance or parental financial support. We had a rocky launch into adulthood during the recession. It is not just a little discipline. It is a hell of a lot of discipline. I do not like the author, to be frank. She has ideas worth contemplating, but she also has stuff like Slop in systems is a luxury of high income, which we have now. We clawed out with daily sacrifices that aggregated into savings each month. By sleeping in coats and hats to save on heating costs, by eating anything cheap in the produce and bulk grain sections, by calculating the serving costs of each meal, by viewing each dollar as precious, by endless small choices, we scraped together savings nearly every single month. We used the savings to keep our car running well and fixed with no loans or CC debt, to get DH tested for national certifications (he doesn't have a degree), to buy glasses and a great electronic toothbrush, to invest, to try out moving half the country away with what we could fit in our car, to absorb and deflect bad stuff that came our way with our hard won emergency fund. When you're on a tightrope, the little muscles matter. They are what create balance as you move forward.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 13:26:38 GMT -5
On a different note, she is startlingly articulate.
Why startlingly articulate? She says again that she wasn't born into poverty. A lot of love and care went into her education and upbringing. From her gofundme posts:
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 23, 2014 13:37:31 GMT -5
I think that what bothers me is that she KNOWS that they are poor choices, yet makes them anyway. She uses all of her poor choices to rationalize why she cannot do what she would like. For instance, her teeth are bad and she can't get a position where she'd be dealing with the public, so she is essentially shut out of certain positions.
But if this is the case, once she GOT money, why didn't she make the changes that are necessary to keep herself going forward? Rather than seeing a dentist, she got tattoos - which is really still shutting her out of the same positions and sabotaging what she claims that she wants, but can't have.
She blames her poor choices on being poor, when in reality they are because she makes poor decisions and exacerbate her lack of money. I think she'd make the same lousy decisions even if she had $1 million in the bank.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 23, 2014 13:39:00 GMT -5
Hmmm, makes sense. But still, I would think a poor person could manage to not overdraw a bank account. Yeah, if they kept a checkbook. Many people (an not just poor people) look up how much they have in their account & assume anything in there is avaiable. They completely forget they wrote a check for rent that hasn't posted yet. But, now they have spent $100 on clothes (because they thought they could, yay magic extra money!), and are overdrawn. Not only that, but the bank will throw a fee on top of that, plus some additional fees for everyday they can't make it right. And payday is a week and a half away & at that time the cell phone bill is due & we will be out of food. The extra money is spent & they are going down the hole with no way to make it right. So you just walk away because you literally can't afford to fix the mistake. It might not be a case of "forgotten that they've spent the money" or not looking at /keeping a check register... when you've got a bunch of bills due and can only cover some of them - I'm sure it gets tempting to just send a check (even tho there's no money in checking) just to keep the "processing" going... there might be some advantages to getting the automated systmes going down certain paths in an effort to 'buy time'. Maybe I'm totally off base. I think it's kinda like how kids can kinda get "mom and dad" to give them leeway by saying "but I tried! I attempted to do X, I need more time! stuff beyond my control happened! I'll have X done asap honest! please give me more time and don't cut me off".
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Sept 23, 2014 13:39:24 GMT -5
Unfortunately those poor choices are due to a lack of education and a lack of opportunities (or maybe a lack of vision to see opportunities when they are presented).
So is it really a "choice" to remain poor when one lacks the opportunity/vision to see other choices? There's a difference between a literate person choosing not to read a book and an illiterate person not reading a book. Sure, neither of them are reading said book but one has a lot more control over it. When literally no one you know has gone to college, ever been paid more than $8/hr, considers the reality of having a child before getting pregnant - how the hell are you supposed to know any better?
I admire Miss T for getting out. I admire Sum Dum Gai for getting out. I really do. I also really do think these guys are the exception. I can answer that. Or more correctly, I can pass on my DH's answer to that. As a teenager, he looked at his mom's life (struggling to take care of all her kids as a single mom), his sister's life (pregnant first year of college and dropped out), his brother's life (out of wedlock kid with HS sweetheart), his other brother's life (unhappy marriage when he had just turned 18). Then he looked at his Dad's life; sterotypical welfare moocher (you know, the horrible kind that YM has nightmares about) and he decided NO! He had a blueprint of what not to do, so he did the things that hadn't been done. He kept his head down and graduated HS. Didn't get anyone pregnant. Signed up for the Army. Picked a MOS that would give him job skills when he gets out of the Army. Then he met me. DH has told me may times he had the example of what not to do, so he simply did the other thing. I love my ILs. All of them. They are wonderful people and things are very different for them now than when DH was a teen. My eldest SIL and her husband now have a healthy, strong marriage and two girls. My MIL is happily married to a guy the family likes who's being a wonderful father to my youngester SIL. I also am not giving any of my nieces back no matter how inconvinient the circumstances of their coming to be. ETA: DH and I barely tolerate his sperm donor. We only keep in touch so we can talk to DH's 7yo half sister and make sure she is safe and well and still attending school
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 23, 2014 13:42:20 GMT -5
Hmmm, makes sense. But still, I would think a poor person could manage to not overdraw a bank account. The simple solution is for the bank to not permit it at the source. If the money isn't in the account you can't use the debit card. That is what happens here. But the bank allows it and then charges outrageous fees that increase the problem exponentially. Not so much anymore - that whole banking reform fiasco stuff. You have to opt in to overdraft protection. In many situations it's better and cheaper for someone to pay the overdraft fees as the fee for a 'short term loan' than to go down to the PayDay Loan store and take one of their more expensive short term loans.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 23, 2014 14:04:16 GMT -5
On a different note, she is startlingly articulate.
Why startlingly articulate? She says again that she wasn't born into poverty. A lot of love and care went into her education and upbringing. From her gofundme posts: That kind of makes it all the more sad. Although, I do believe nature is stronger than nuture. This would be a good example of that.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Sept 23, 2014 14:18:56 GMT -5
Why startlingly articulate? She says again that she wasn't born into poverty. A lot of love and care went into her education and upbringing. From her gofundme posts: That kind of makes it all the more sad. Although, I do believe nature is stronger than nuture. This would be a good example of that. Yep that will be my step brother.... Years of private school tuition wasted and down the drain it went. No matter how much we tried, being middle class or upper middle class was not for him, he felt more comfortable in the hood! We were sells out, he was the true "black". Ok then, think about that when you are feeding your kids off EBT, WIC and you cannot get a job.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 23, 2014 14:24:10 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see that, but that is still a self imposed problem. Just a little discipline would ensure that doesn't happen.
Yes and no. I am SO glad that I can pay all my bills online now and send out electronic checks which clear the instant I hit "Pay Bill." No float at all - I haven't used paper checks for anything in at least a year, probably closer to two. Life is so much easier now. I freely admit that I was HORRIBLE about knowing my balance before this wonderful phenomenon. I hated writing down every single purchase in a checkbook and it was really frustrating when I would have plenty of money in the account to pay all my bills but then constantly wonder (after I'd paid them) exactly how much I had left in my account and whether this check or that one had cleared yet. And I've always made plenty of money to cover my bills plus compensate for my screwups. I generally had enough cushion that even if I had an "oh shit" moment I still had at least a couple hundred bucks in my account. I can't imagine how tough it would have been to keep track of the money coming and going from a checking account back in the days of paper checks if I was barely making ends meet. Yeah, we can say it's all about discipline but in reality that's too simplistic. We all have our strengths and weaknesses - some people are not good with money. I realize that's YM heresy but it's true. I think most, if not all, people have done some kind of similar screw-up with our banking. (I certainly manage to blow it once every year or so!) I don't think that the poor are inherently worse at managing a bank account or that the rich are inherently better at it. But for the poor, that one screw-up will lead to a lot more problems and make the matter worse. For those of us with wiggle room in our account, it's 'oh, man, that was dumb!' and we move on with little consequence.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Sept 23, 2014 14:49:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I can see that, but that is still a self imposed problem. Just a little discipline would ensure that doesn't happen. But yes, when you get into that situation as a poor person, I can see how you couldn't get back out. Gonna weigh in here. DH and I have been in the trenches for our early years, living on $11/hr to support both of us, no food stamps or rental assistance or parental financial support. We had a rocky launch into adulthood during the recession. It is not just a little discipline. It is a hell of a lot of discipline. I do not like the author, to be frank. She has ideas worth contemplating, but she also has stuff like Slop in systems is a luxury of high income, which we have now. We clawed out with daily sacrifices that aggregated into savings each month. By sleeping in coats and hats to save on heating costs, by eating anything cheap in the produce and bulk grain sections, by calculating the serving costs of each meal, by viewing each dollar as precious, by endless small choices, we scraped together savings nearly every single month. We used the savings to keep our car running well and fixed with no loans or CC debt, to get DH tested for national certifications (he doesn't have a degree), to buy glasses and a great electronic toothbrush, to invest, to try out moving half the country away with what we could fit in our car, to absorb and deflect bad stuff that came our way with our hard won emergency fund. When you're on a tightrope, the little muscles matter. They are what create balance as you move forward. Oooh, I like that! Saving that quote - thank you!
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 23, 2014 14:57:30 GMT -5
I think most, if not all, people have done some kind of similar screw-up with our banking. (I certainly manage to blow it once every year or so!) I don't think that the poor are inherently worse at managing a bank account or that the rich are inherently better at it. But for the poor, that one screw-up will lead to a lot more problems and make the matter worse. For those of us with wiggle room in our account, it's 'oh, man, that was dumb!' and we move on with little consequence.
I also suspect it has a little to do with 'what you don't know won't hurt you' attitude. One of the things that I have noticed when I have more money is that I tend to pay more attention to the balances. But when I was playing things a lot tighter, I wasn't paying as much attention (and SHOULD have been because an error would have put me into the negative).
I think it goes along the same lines as during the recession, my 403b balances were going down despite my contributions. There was a period of time of nearly a year where I never opened a statement because I just didn't want to know. If you don't know, you can ignore it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 15:02:26 GMT -5
I think it goes along the same lines as during the recession, my 403b balances were going down despite my contributions. There was a period of time of nearly a year where I never opened a statement because I just didn't want to know. If you don't know, you can ignore it. Ha! I did that too! I kind of miss the times when it all wasn't available online and updating instantly. These days every time I log into my credit union account I get a consolidated view of all my retirement and college savings accounts. It was nice to just put it on ignore and stay the course. Then a year later you open your statement and, Hey! You're up again!
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 23, 2014 15:06:41 GMT -5
I also suspect it has a little to do with 'what you don't know won't hurt you' attitude. One of the things that I have noticed when I have more money is that I tend to pay more attention to the balances. But when I was playing things a lot tighter, I wasn't paying as much attention (and SHOULD have been because an error would have put me into the negative). I do this too. I totally stick my head in the sand on tracking or budgeting when things get bad. I stopped using YNAB for about a year because I didn't want to put on paper how much I was overspending.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2014 15:10:29 GMT -5
Many moons ago when I couldn't pay off the credit card at the end of the month, it was much easier to actually treat myself outside the budget... It wasn't getting paid anyhow...
Not good strategy, but I could see how it can happen...
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Sept 23, 2014 15:13:12 GMT -5
I think most, if not all, people have done some kind of similar screw-up with our banking. (I certainly manage to blow it once every year or so!) I don't think that the poor are inherently worse at managing a bank account or that the rich are inherently better at it. But for the poor, that one screw-up will lead to a lot more problems and make the matter worse. For those of us with wiggle room in our account, it's 'oh, man, that was dumb!' and we move on with little consequence.I also suspect it has a little to do with 'what you don't know won't hurt you' attitude. One of the things that I have noticed when I have more money is that I tend to pay more attention to the balances. But when I was playing things a lot tighter, I wasn't paying as much attention (and SHOULD have been because an error would have put me into the negative). I think it goes along the same lines as during the recession, my 403b balances were going down despite my contributions. There was a period of time of nearly a year where I never opened a statement because I just didn't want to know. If you don't know, you can ignore it. I did the opposite. When I was very poor, I watched every single penny. Only within the last ten years or so did I become more relaxed and just save/invest first, pay bills without a strict budget and then spend the rest. Once, in 1976, I had an overdraft due to my transposing numbers in the check register. I was mortified, but fortunately could cover the error although it strained the budget. It would have been devastating if I had not had a little bit put back for emergencies. I made sure I never did it again because I could not afford another screw-up.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 23, 2014 15:24:47 GMT -5
Wasn't there a book or something online that alluded to this frame of mind? The "I won't ever NOT be poor so why not take this $100 or $5 and spend it on something I want - versus paying those bills - I may never have $100 or $5 again! I may never have the chance to have X. The bills will still be here tomorrow."
It seems that being poor with the wrong attitude can make being poor a self fulfilling prophecy.
I know my local gaggle of teacher friends were talking about this because it helped explain why even the poorest kids in class had expensive gymshoes or cell phones or designer stuff - when maybe it would have been better if their parents had bought food or maybe paid their rent or electric/water/gas bill with the money.
This kind of gives me "charity fatigue"...
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 23, 2014 15:40:16 GMT -5
Wasn't there a book or something online that alluded to this frame of mind? The "I won't ever NOT be poor so why not take this $100 or $5 and spend it on something I want - versus paying those bills - I may never have $100 or $5 again! I may never have the chance to have X. The bills will still be here tomorrow." It seems that being poor with the wrong attitude can make being poor a self fulfilling prophecy. I know my local gaggle of teacher friends were talking about this because it helped explain why even the poorest kids in class had expensive gymshoes or cell phones or designer stuff - when maybe it would have been better if their parents had bought food or maybe paid their rent or electric/water/gas bill with the money. This kind of gives me "charity fatigue"... There is, I can't find it though.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 23, 2014 15:45:17 GMT -5
Many moons ago when I couldn't pay off the credit card at the end of the month, it was much easier to actually treat myself outside the budget... It wasn't getting paid anyhow... Not good strategy, but I could see how it can happen... Me too. I had problems with this with my credit cards in my 20's. Once they didn't get paid off regularly, it was too easy to justify using them for other things (both necessities and not-necessities) because they weren't going to be paid off as it was.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 23, 2014 15:46:51 GMT -5
I think it goes along the same lines as during the recession, my 403b balances were going down despite my contributions. There was a period of time of nearly a year where I never opened a statement because I just didn't want to know. If you don't know, you can ignore it. Ha! I did that too! I kind of miss the times when it all wasn't available online and updating instantly. These days every time I log into my credit union account I get a consolidated view of all my retirement and college savings accounts. It was nice to just put it on ignore and stay the course. Then a year later you open your statement and, Hey! You're up again! Sadly, in the lowest days of my 401k balance, I was in the process of moving it from one provider to another -- I kept having to see that darn balance all the time for a while! I tried not to think too hard about it.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Sept 23, 2014 15:48:58 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that perhaps it is more her attitude that isn't allowing her to get better jobs rather than her looks. From her picture she doesn't look bad, just needs to clean up a bit. It seems like she just wants to make excuses for her life not turning out great but doesn't do a single thing to change it. She states that no one can prove that smoking is keeping her poor but it doesn't help her teeth situation (though I think I saw her teeth in another article and they weren't that bad, unless I am remembering a different person), and I know for a fact that many employers won't hire a person who smells like cigarette smoke at an interview. It also is not the smoking alone but the accumulation of several bad choices that is keeping her poor. She chooses to put blinders on and justify her situation. I do feel sorry for her because she obviously has completely given up on life and I don't envy anyone with that mindset.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Sept 23, 2014 16:09:30 GMT -5
Some poor choices are made if someone feels backed into a corner with no way that they can see to get out.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 23, 2014 16:25:21 GMT -5
... You do need a job that lines enough with your personality that it isn't tiresome & awful. There is no job in our economy that fits that criteria for my personality that pays a wage that will allow me to save for retirement.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 23, 2014 16:29:48 GMT -5
Some poor choices are made if someone feels backed into a corner with no way that they can see to get out. And some poor choices are made because someone just goes with what they want rather than what would make sense. In this case, the woman in this article, rather than getting her teeth fixed with any money she earned CHOSE to get tattoos instead. Why would you do something like this, when you KNOW your appearance is causing employment issues?
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on Sept 23, 2014 16:33:50 GMT -5
Some poor choices are made if someone feels backed into a corner with no way that they can see to get out. And some poor choices are made because someone just goes with what they want rather than what would make sense. In this case, the woman in this article, rather than getting her teeth fixed with any money she earned CHOSE to get tattoos instead. Why would you do something like this, when you KNOW your appearance is causing employment issues? It kinda sounded like she made that choice in order to make a point, too.
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