The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 22, 2014 13:30:29 GMT -5
Angel! - I thought we were supposed to be a classless society in the US? Everyone was supposed to be born with access to the same opportunities regardless of race or socioeconomic status? I guess because of my background I must be an outlier. My Dad never made it past 5th grade. He certainly did lack a formal education. He has a strong accent. By your accounts he must be low class. However he made sure he always provided for his family and took care of his mother in law even after his wife passed. I don't know about anyone else, but in my book that makes him higher class then say the Kardashians or Ramsey who treat other people like shit. But hey - they have fancy accents and are well educated so they must be high class, right?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 13:32:28 GMT -5
If you read that other article that was linked you see that she is doing better now. She lucked out with the attention her post got and she got a book deal out of it so she is in better shape right now. Lots of people hold out until something gives but it doesn't mean it's fun.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 13:33:47 GMT -5
Angel! - I thought we were supposed to be a classless society in the US? Everyone was supposed to be born with access to the same opportunities regardless of race or socioeconomic status? Really? You think you and your dad are in the same class as the Kennedys and the Rockefellers?
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Sept 22, 2014 13:34:27 GMT -5
The lady who wrote the article has already given up. It’s sad because she is still young. The only thing out of the whole article I agree with her is the smoking. I used to smoke when I was broke, living from paycheck to paycheck, horrified what if (insert any relatively small emergency) happens entire house of cards will collapse. In those days check floating was still doable and I am ashamed to say I’ve done it. Problem is smoking is almost impossible to quit when under constant stress. I quit cold turkey almost ten years ago but it was not till I was financially stable and life’s stress level was under manageable control. Honestly I have never personally met anyone who successfully quit smoking long term while being broke and I’m sure there is not a smoker in the world that is not aware how bad it is for their health and financial situation. It’s just very hard to do while under constant stress. DH is a stress smoker. It was much worse a couple of years ago when we were really broke (although never to the level of the author, because I had a job and could get credit and we are still digging out). There is nothing worse than having him try to quit while he's stressed out and I've given up on it. He will go for 2 years without smoking, but the first time something really big comes along it's what he turns to. Guess it could be a lot worse. He's promised he's on his last pack now since baby is coming next week - which means he will be so fun to deal with next week He's too scared of his mom finding out he smokes, though, and knows that we will have family over a lot after the baby is here so he's quitting again.
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Waffle
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Post by Waffle on Sept 22, 2014 13:36:26 GMT -5
I didn't see it this time around, but I thought the last time we discussed her - it was determined that not every example she gave was actually about her personally. Some of them were about other poor people that she knew. Does anybody else remember that?
Miss Tequila - I believe what you have done with your life is commendable, it's also very exceptional - as in the exception that proves the rule.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2014 13:39:54 GMT -5
Angel! - I thought we were supposed to be a classless society in the US? Everyone was supposed to be born with access to the same opportunities regardless of race or socioeconomic status? I guess because of my background I must be an outlier. My Dad never made it past 5th grade. He certainly did lack a formal education. He has a strong accent. By your accounts he must be low class. However he made sure he always provided for his family and took care of his mother in law even after his wife passed. I don't know about anyone else, but in my book that makes him higher class then say the Kardashians or Ramsey who treat other people like shit. But hey - they have fancy accents and are well educated so they must be high class, right? Captain, I think you are reading into her words because this hits home for you. it might piss you off but if someone walked into an interview with me talking like they were uneducated, I would assume they were uneducated. They might be a great person but I need employees are smart and ambitious, not just great people.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2014 13:41:12 GMT -5
I didn't see it this time around, but I thought the last time we discussed her - it was determined that not every example she gave was actually about her personally. Some of them were about other poor people that she knew. Does anybody else remember that?
Miss Tequila - I believe what you have done with your life is commendable, it's also very exceptional - as in the exception that proves the rule. And I think that is a cop out for anyone who doesn't have the drive or ambition to get out of their circumstances.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 22, 2014 13:48:56 GMT -5
Angel! - I thought we were supposed to be a classless society in the US? Everyone was supposed to be born with access to the same opportunities regardless of race or socioeconomic status? Really? You think you and your dad are in the same class as the Kennedys and the Rockefellers? Some of the Rockefellers are asshats, so good lord I hope not. And as far as Ted Kennedy, I would be very comfortable saying he has less class than my Dad. Any day of the week.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 22, 2014 13:52:25 GMT -5
Angel! - I thought we were supposed to be a classless society in the US? Everyone was supposed to be born with access to the same opportunities regardless of race or socioeconomic status? I guess because of my background I must be an outlier. My Dad never made it past 5th grade. He certainly did lack a formal education. He has a strong accent. By your accounts he must be low class. However he made sure he always provided for his family and took care of his mother in law even after his wife passed. I don't know about anyone else, but in my book that makes him higher class then say the Kardashians or Ramsey who treat other people like shit. But hey - they have fancy accents and are well educated so they must be high class, right? Captain, I think you are reading into her words because this hits home for you. it might piss you off but if someone walked into an interview with me talking like they were uneducated, I would assume they were uneducated. They might be a great person but I need employees are smart and ambitious, not just great people. There is a difference between level of education, and level of class. That is the point I'm trying to (unsuccessfully) get across. I know many highly educated people who have no class whatsoever. And yes, I will totally own being sensitive about rich people assuming if you don't have money, or speak "right", then you must not have any class. I don't agree with that worldview. Some of the classiest people I've met have been as poor as dirt.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 22, 2014 14:00:09 GMT -5
We weren't talking uncouth phrases and you know it. The direct words used were ""Dees tings over Dare" with a low-class chicago accent". In Chicago we talk about "Da Bears" and "Da Bulls" and "So Siders" who find the "th" sound unnecessary. I still don't bother with the "th" sound when peeps ask me where I grew up. Guess I missed the memo and should have been delegated to poverty as a lowly so sider with a low-class accent. Who the fuck has (oops - my "low class" is showing ) any right to judge someone as low class based simply on their accent? That's (imagine this in a British accent - it will give me more credibility in your book) patently absurd. Yes, I can turn the accent on and off. At work it's off. At home and around friends it's on. It's part of who I am (and I'm sure it's part of the mom whose vocal patters are the subject of discussion) and I'll be damned if I worry about someone judging me by how I sound as opposed to who I am. I think you nailed the difference between you, someone who is successful, and those living and staying in poverty. The fact that you turn it off at work tells me that you know that is not acceptable in a professional setting and that you would be judged if you spoke like that. If you truly so no problem with it, you wouldn't feel the need to turn off that pattern of speech. Not necessarily true. I was once told that if I wanted my bosses' job - I had to dress, sound, and act like I already had my bosses job. It's a role that I play, not the person that I am all the time. Just like when country singers switch to pop music they suddenly lose the "twang" because they want to fit in that genera. Just like if I worked in a manufacturing plant I would change my speech patters to fit in with my cohorts. It's not right or wrong, high or low class. It just is. There's nothing wrong about changing your apparance or speech to achieve your goals, but I do think it's wrong to assume a level of education or status based solely on speech patterns. Angel! and Miss Tequila - if nothing else this is an interestering side conversation - thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 14:05:05 GMT -5
Captain, I think you are reading into her words because this hits home for you. it might piss you off but if someone walked into an interview with me talking like they were uneducated, I would assume they were uneducated. They might be a great person but I need employees are smart and ambitious, not just great people. There is a difference between level of education, and level of class. That is the point I'm trying to (unsuccessfully) get across. I know many highly educated people who have no class whatsoever. And yes, I will totally own being sensitive about rich people assuming if you don't have money, or speak "right", then you must not have any class. I don't agree with that worldview. Some of the classiest people I've met have been as poor as dirt. I'm thinking of some of my neighbors. They are very much "Larry the Cable Guy", and smell like cow manure a lot of the time, but darned if they aren't some of the greatest people I've ever known.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Sept 22, 2014 14:08:26 GMT -5
Captain, I think you are reading into her words because this hits home for you. it might piss you off but if someone walked into an interview with me talking like they were uneducated, I would assume they were uneducated. They might be a great person but I need employees are smart and ambitious, not just great people. There is a difference between level of education, and level of class. That is the point I'm trying to (unsuccessfully) get across. I know many highly educated people who have no class whatsoever. And yes, I will totally own being sensitive about rich people assuming if you don't have money, or speak "right", then you must not have any class. I don't agree with that worldview. Some of the classiest people I've met have been as poor as dirt. But poor and classy don't buy you a ham sandwich.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2014 14:15:21 GMT -5
I think you nailed the difference between you, someone who is successful, and those living and staying in poverty. The fact that you turn it off at work tells me that you know that is not acceptable in a professional setting and that you would be judged if you spoke like that. If you truly so no problem with it, you wouldn't feel the need to turn off that pattern of speech. Not necessarily true. I was once told that if I wanted my bosses' job - I had to dress, sound, and act like I already had my bosses job. It's a role that I play, not the person that I am all the time. Just like when country singers switch to pop music they suddenly lose the "twang" because they want to fit in that genera. Just like if I worked in a manufacturing plant I would change my speech patters to fit in with my cohorts. It's not right or wrong, high or low class. It just is. There's nothing wrong about changing your apparance or speech to achieve your goals, but I do think it's wrong to assume a level of education or status based solely on speech patterns. Angel! and Miss Tequila - if nothing else this is an interestering side conversation - thanks! But I read this as you proving our point. If you want to be successful you have to act successful. Part of that means not talking as if you were uneducated. You know enough to do that. I know enough to do that (I can curse with the best of them but I'm not dropping F bombs during my interviews!) but it sounds like the woman in the article can't.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 22, 2014 14:21:04 GMT -5
Not necessarily true. I was once told that if I wanted my bosses' job - I had to dress, sound, and act like I already had my bosses job. It's a role that I play, not the person that I am all the time. Just like when country singers switch to pop music they suddenly lose the "twang" because they want to fit in that genera. Just like if I worked in a manufacturing plant I would change my speech patters to fit in with my cohorts. It's not right or wrong, high or low class. It just is. There's nothing wrong about changing your apparance or speech to achieve your goals, but I do think it's wrong to assume a level of education or status based solely on speech patterns. Angel! and Miss Tequila - if nothing else this is an interestering side conversation - thanks! But I read this as you proving our point. If you want to be successful you have to act successful. Part of that means not talking as if you were uneducated. You know enough to do that. I know enough to do that (I can curse with the best of them but I'm not dropping F bombs during my interviews!) but it sounds like the woman in the article can't.
Tina - I agree with as to the person in the article not being successful and possible reasons why. As to whether or not she has any class I can't say, I've never met her. The issue of class and accents came up when another poster referred to a person's accent as "Low class Chicago".
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Sept 22, 2014 14:26:27 GMT -5
They are? Most of my memories got shoved into a "bad-time" hole. The details faded very quickly and I've found it very hard to talk about without reaching for cliches. There's definitely a downside to attempting to put the experience into words. I wish I could do that. Many of my memories from that time of my life are vivid and I see them as though they were yesterday. Perhaps because the events involved much more emotion than the last twenty years or so of my life which have been comparatively drama-free. It is difficult to express the memories, though.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Sept 22, 2014 14:27:54 GMT -5
Angel! - I thought we were supposed to be a classless society in the US? -rofl-just because class is not defined strictly (I'll get back to this in a moment) as blue-blood v. commoners doesn't mean that a society is classless. Class in the US is defined in the color green and very flat but you have to have a lot of it to have "class". And, to get back to my comment, there is definitely also a division between old and new money and between "my ancestors came over on the Mayflower, while yours where late-coming Ellis Island wannabees" or worse yet, recent immigrants. I do not believe that a classless society exists anywhere, there are always the "but some are more equal than others" exceptions
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2014 14:30:05 GMT -5
But I read this as you proving our point. If you want to be successful you have to act successful. Part of that means not talking as if you were uneducated. You know enough to do that. I know enough to do that (I can curse with the best of them but I'm not dropping F bombs during my interviews!) but it sounds like the woman in the article can't.
Tina - I agree with as to the person in the article not being successful and possible reasons why. As to whether or not she has any class I can't say, I've never met her. The issue of class and accents came up when another poster referred to a person's accent as "Low class Chicago". Gotcha.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 22, 2014 14:30:47 GMT -5
Angel! - I thought we were supposed to be a classless society in the US? -rofl-just because class is not defined strictly (I'll get back to this in a moment) as blue-blood v. commoners doesn't mean that a society is classless. Class in the US is defined in the color green and very flat but you have to have a lot of it to have "class". And, to get back to my comment, there is definitely also a division between old and new money and between "my ancestors came over on the Mayflower, while yours where late-coming Ellis Island wannabees" or worse yet, recent immigrants. I do not believe that a classless society exists anywhere, there are always the "but some are more equal than others" exceptions Agree. Doesn't mean it isn't something we can't strive for, no? I think it's a good ideal.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Sept 22, 2014 14:32:49 GMT -5
I absolutely believe you are right Captain, but if the comments here are any indication it looks like we have a lot of work to do still.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 14:50:04 GMT -5
I enjoyed her article more than I enjoyed most of the comments on here.
It is easy for us to criticize her choices; you demonstrated that over and over.
News flash: They don't think like YMers. Some of the deck really is stacked against them. Take the example of being sent home when a store isn't busy but being expected to be constantly on-call just in case they are. I did retail. She didn't make that up.
I went to Head Start once. The girl who was going to cut my hair told me to wait. She needed to clock in. It seems that the manager required they clock out when there were no customers in the store. They couldn't leave. They had to sit there off the clock. I told her that probably wasn't legal. She told me that she needed the job. I guess if you get "fired" from HS, no one will hire you.
We like to blame the poor for being poor. That means we can congratulate ourselves.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 22, 2014 14:58:31 GMT -5
Angel! - I thought we were supposed to be a classless society in the US? Everyone was supposed to be born with access to the same opportunities regardless of race or socioeconomic status? Haha!!! We have class mobility, which is a lot more than some places have. But, in no way does everyone have equal opportunities. You can't when some kids's parents can pay for college & others can't. When some kid's parents will subsidize their lifestyle so they can take an unpaid internship or volunteer overseas & others can't. Unfortunately that is life. Doesn't mean someone born into poverty can't get to middle class, but they will have to work a hell of a lot harder to get there. And part of it is acting the part...the way you dress, the way you speak, just the way you act. If you can't present yourself in the appropriate way, then you won't fit in & won't get the job you want, won't move up the ladder. It isn't even just education, it is the ability to know how you should act in different environments.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Sept 22, 2014 14:59:41 GMT -5
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 22, 2014 15:03:18 GMT -5
I enjoyed her article more than I enjoyed most of the comments on here.
It is easy for us to criticize her choices; you demonstrated that over and over.
News flash: They don't think like YMers. Some of the deck really is stacked against them. Take the example of being sent home when a store isn't busy but being expected to be constantly on-call just in case they are. I did retail. She didn't make that up.
I went to Head Start once. The girl who was going to cut my hair told me to wait. She needed to clock in. It seems that the manager required they clock out when there were no customers in the store. They couldn't leave. They had to sit there off the clock. I told her that probably wasn't legal. She told me that she needed the job. I guess if you get "fired" from HS, no one will hire you.
We like to blame the poor for being poor. That means we can congratulate ourselves.
I don't think anyone said she was making anything up. I've done retail too. I don't necessarily blame a poor person for being poor. But, I do believe their choices absolutely keep them poor. Unfortunately those poor choices are due to a lack of education and a lack of opportunities (or maybe a lack of vision to see opportunities when they are presented). I am really curious - anyone know what she is going to school for?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 22, 2014 15:25:07 GMT -5
Unfortunately those poor choices are due to a lack of education and a lack of opportunities (or maybe a lack of vision to see opportunities when they are presented).
So is it really a "choice" to remain poor when one lacks the opportunity/vision to see other choices? There's a difference between a literate person choosing not to read a book and an illiterate person not reading a book. Sure, neither of them are reading said book but one has a lot more control over it. When literally no one you know has gone to college, ever been paid more than $8/hr, considers the reality of having a child before getting pregnant - how the hell are you supposed to know any better? I admire Miss T for getting out. I admire Sum Dum Gai for getting out. I really do. I also really do think these guys are the exception.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 22, 2014 15:29:46 GMT -5
Unfortunately those poor choices are due to a lack of education and a lack of opportunities (or maybe a lack of vision to see opportunities when they are presented).
So is it really a "choice" to remain poor when one lacks the opportunity/vision to see other choices? They are not choosing to be poor (who would choose that?), but their choices are causing them to stay poor. They just don't realize it.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Sept 22, 2014 15:33:17 GMT -5
If the "deck is stacked against her" it's because she stacked it herself. She admits she was in college but "wasn't ready". The opportunity was obviously there. She failed to grab it. That's her fault. She had children she couldn't afford. Also her (and baby daddy) fault. She alters her appearance to the point that those who write the checks find it unacceptable. That's her fault. Nothing was stacked against her. She dealt her own hand. She dyes her hair some ridiculous shade of blue and tats herself up and then expects to walk into a law office and get a job? Give me a break. I wouldn't hire her either. Call that crappy if you want, but professional people want to project a professional image. It makes their clients/patrons trust them - have faith in them - and the clients/patrons pay the bills. We can't blame society for her choices. In an ideal world, perhaps this wouldn't matter. This world isn't ideal and it DOES matter. Grow up, accept and remedy your mistakes or not. It's up to her.
That does not mean I don't sympathize. I've made some pretty crappy choices, too, but I've worked myself out of them. Nobody is perfect and nobody makes the exact right decision 100% of the time. However, there are people who work hard to get themselves out of the hole they dug and there are those who blame society and spend there time doing the "woe is me" routine instead of something productive.
There are absolutely people, who by no fault of themselves, have fallen on hard times. A serious illness, a sudden disability, a death of a spouse, the sudden loss of a job....those things are understandable and THOSE people can write an article asking for understanding, IMO. Someone who shoots themselves in the foot time after time after time is not the same thing.
Dang....I get sick of people doing stupid things and then wondering why their life isn't champagne and caviar.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 22, 2014 15:35:38 GMT -5
They are not choosing to be poor (who would choose that?), but their choices are causing them to stay poor. They just don't realize it.
Exactly my point. If they don't realize certain choices are making them poor, how can they really be penalized/judged/whatever for making them?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Sept 22, 2014 15:51:32 GMT -5
They are not choosing to be poor (who would choose that?), but their choices are causing them to stay poor. They just don't realize it.
Exactly my point. If they don't realize certain choices are making them poor, how can they really be penalized/judged/whatever for making them? That's life. We are all responsible for our own destiny. That's the great thing about living in theand of the free. I can choose to apply myself and become successful or I can choose to blow every chance I have andive in poverty. We can't force someone to make smart choices. But at the end of the day we are all responsible for ourselves
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 22, 2014 15:58:44 GMT -5
If they don't realize certain choices are making them poor, how can they really be penalized/judged/whatever for making them?
It's hard not to judge when you are the one who has to listen to the tale of woe.
My jaw dropped when my BFF told me she was oopsie pregnant again. My jaw dropped when she told me her plan to get out of Wal-mart was a $120k for profit art degree.
It's insane to me because we weren't raised that differently yet her life has taken a total 180 turn from mine.
When talking to her I can see the pattern of one choice after another that's lead her to where she is now. I keep my mouth shut though because it's not my place to say anything. I can see how it probably seems impossible to correct course now that she's so far in over hear head. At the same time though we've been friends for 13 years and I feel like she should be "smarter" than that. I sometimes want to shake her because how can you NOT get it?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2014 16:02:40 GMT -5
If they don't realize certain choices are making them poor, how can they really be penalized/judged/whatever for making them?
It's hard not to judge when you are the one who has to listen to the tale of woe.
My jaw dropped when my BFF told me she was oopsie pregnant again. My jaw dropped when she told me her plan to get out of Wal-mart was a $120k for profit art degree.
It's insane to me because we weren't raised that differently yet her life has taken a total 180 turn from mine.
When talking to her I can see the pattern of one choice after another that's lead her to where she is now. I keep my mouth shut though because it's not my place to say anything. I can see how it probably seems impossible to correct course now that she's so far in over hear head. At the same time though we've been friends for 13 years and I feel like she should be "smarter" than that. I sometimes want to shake her because how can you NOT get it?
I'm more and more convinced that some people are just wired differently.
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