Ray Rice NFL Suspension Over Domestic Violence.

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 19:03:12 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 18:59:35 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I am simply stating he has a right to defend himself and stop the attack.

You have a right to defend your self with similar force used on you. He went way overboard. You also can't claim self defense when you started it. And spitting on someone is starting it. 

Just out of curiosity... since you appear to know... what happened BEFORE he spit on her? Do we know that she didn't start it? NO we don't. No one here knows.

We only know who escalated it to body-to-body, skin-to-skin, physical contact. That's her.

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 19:58:10 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I agree that he's responsible for knocking her out (I never said otherwise), however... she is responsible for making that necessary.

"Necessary" may be a little strong there, Rich....  

Granted. I should have typed: "she is responsible for making him defend himself necessary."

[tallguy]

My recollection is that both were arrested for simple assault.  Both declined medical treatment because there were no injuries.  Her charges were dropped, while he entered a pre-trial diversion.  Satisfactory completion of that program would likely end with his charges being erased and he would not have a criminal record.  While domestic violence is certainly and deservedly an emotional issue for a lot of people, I would think we could find a better case to really be emotional over.  There are going to be a lot of victims more deserving of sympathy than this one.... 

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 20:05:21 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 20:03:44 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I don't believe anyone said his life was in danger. He was being physically attacked. He had every right to take steps to stop that attack.

Yes, but he used more force than necessary. 

Did the attack stop?

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Until someone's lived through it, or had to flee it, it's really not up to them to "pick sides" for this case or decide who's at fault - or more "justified".

There IS no justification in domestic or spousal/partner abuse - EVER. Or any other kind of abuse - even VERBAL abuse can escalate into much worse.

It starts out small, and escalates - constant insults or belittling, and then slowly getting more and more frequent until it turns into slaps, shoving, punches - picture a snowball rolling from the top of a mountain covered in sticky snow - that snowball gradually builds and builds as gravity pulls it down - until it becomes an avalanche.

As soon as the first snowball is thrown, it's time to put a stop to it - meaning get counseling now to find a way to work out disputes without getting physical (including spitting), or walk away - or run - before you're buried with no escape - except one - and that one includes a box.

[Shooby]

It's a message board. We can pick any sides we want to.

[swamp]

Sept 14, 2014 20:21:34 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 20:05:21 GMT -5 swamp said:

Yes, but he used more force than necessary. 

Did the attack stop?

You're right. I'm wrong. I haven't learned shit in 18 years of practicing criminal law.   

[Shooby]

Thank God you finally admitted it.

[Angel!]

Sept 14, 2014 19:54:37 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Swamp just said earlier, and as far as I know she's the only lawyer on this thread, that you have a right to defend yourself using equal force. So, if he'd spit on her, she slapped him, and the incident stopped there, would she be potentially facing charges? She wasn't in danger of being hurt by the spittle, it's just disgusting and degrading. She escalated it to physical contact. Who's the bad guy if we take the punch out of the equation.

Yes. She actually did get charged.  They just later got dropped probably due to the fact she got knocked out and suffered that humiliation.

[tallguy]

Yes. She actually did get charged. They just later got dropped probably due to the fact she got knocked out and suffered that humiliation.

I would bet that had nothing to do with it....

[Angel!]

Sept 14, 2014 19:48:57 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 12:08:31 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

my four cents:

two for the board: other than being with this jerk, and staying with him, i don't see how this woman is in ANY WAY responsible for getting herself knocked out.

two cents for Richard: i advise you not to suggest otherwise. 

I agree that he's responsible for knocking her out (I never said otherwise), however... she is responsible for making that necessary. 

That is a really fucked up thing to say. 

Turns out we don't have a DV problem in this country.  We just have millions of out-of-control women that need some sense knocked into them. 

[Angel!]

Sept 14, 2014 20:52:54 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Yes. She actually did get charged. They just later got dropped probably due to the fact she got knocked out and suffered that humiliation.

I would bet that had nothing to do with it....

I honestly don't know.  I never got charged in my DV incident, so I don't know that end of things. 

Could have been so minor it wasn't worth it.  I bet if it had stopped there & he wanted her charged, they would not have been dropped.

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 20:31:28 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 20:21:34 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Did the attack stop?

You're right. I'm wrong. I haven't learned shit in 18 years of practicing criminal law.   

It has nothing to do with what you have learned in 18 years of criminal law. My question simply was "did the attack stop?" It's a simple question, no sarcasm is required to answer it.


When defending one's self, one has the right to make the attack stop (without killing {unless the threat one is defending against is deadly force}... which he didn't do). So, I'll ask again: Did the attack stop?

[swamp]

If they wanted her to cooperate in the prosecution, they'd have to drop it. Otherwise, she would not be able to testify against him without incriminating herself. Her lawyer would advise her to invoke the 5th. 

[swamp]

Sept 14, 2014 20:57:38 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 20:31:28 GMT -5 swamp said:

You're right. I'm wrong. I haven't learned shit in 18 years of practicing criminal law.   

It has nothing to do with what you have learned in 18 years of criminal law. My question simply was "did the attack stop?" It's a simple question, no sarcasm is required to answer it.


When defending one's self, one has the right to make the attack stop (without killing {unless the threat one is defending against is deadly force}... which he didn't do). So, I'll ask again: Did the attack stop?

So he could kill her to stop the attack?   Same logic. 

Stabbing her would stop it. Shooting her, cutting off her arm, they'd all stop the attack. You can't answer a slap with a knock out punch. You cannot escalate the force. You can use enough force to repel them. 

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 20:53:54 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Sept 14, 2014 19:48:57 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I agree that he's responsible for knocking her out (I never said otherwise), however... she is responsible for making that necessary. 

That is a really fucked up thing to say. 

Turns out we don't have a DV problem in this country.  We just have millions of out-of-control women that need some sense knocked into them. 

Interesting escalation (apparently women are good at escalating things... maybe because they get away with it?).

I never suggested anything of the sort, and you know it.

[tallguy]

The reason neither was booked into jail after the incident is likely that they were both talked to by officers at the scene, neither was injured, neither wanted to press charges, and neither was judged to be a danger to the other.  At that point I'm guessing it was the officers' discretion how far to go.  That is probably also why Rice was allowed to enter the diversion program since to the best of my knowledge that is not allowed at all for offenders in violent crimes.  Yes, if he wanted her charged and booked she probably would have been.  Same the other way.   

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 20:58:58 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 20:57:38 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It has nothing to do with what you have learned in 18 years of criminal law. My question simply was "did the attack stop?" It's a simple question, no sarcasm is required to answer it.


When defending one's self, one has the right to make the attack stop (without killing {unless the threat one is defending against is deadly force}... which he didn't do). So, I'll ask again: Did the attack stop?

So he could kill her to stop the attack?   Same logic. 

Stabbing her would stop it. Shooting her, cutting off her arm, they'd all stop the attack. You can't answer a slap with a knock out punch. You cannot escalate the force. You can use enough force to repel them. 

No. It's not the same logic. and had you read the bolded you'd understand that.

Was she repelled by his ONE punch?

[swamp]

Sept 14, 2014 21:00:11 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 20:53:54 GMT -5 Angel! said:

That is a really fucked up thing to say. 

Turns out we don't have a DV problem in this country.  We just have millions of out-of-control women that need some sense knocked into them. 

Interesting escalation (apparently women are good at escalating things... maybe because they get away with it?).

I never suggested anything of the sort, and you know it.

Women are good at escalating things?  I used to think you were a decent guy. 

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 21:02:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:00:11 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Interesting escalation (apparently women are good at escalating things... maybe because they get away with it?).

I never suggested anything of the sort, and you know it.

Women are good at escalating things?  I used to think you were a decent guy. 

I am a decent guy. I just don't give in to the double standard. Women want equality... until they are being treated equally it seems.

[swamp]

Sept 14, 2014 21:02:18 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 20:58:58 GMT -5 swamp said:

So he could kill her to stop the attack?   Same logic. 

Stabbing her would stop it. Shooting her, cutting off her arm, they'd all stop the attack. You can't answer a slap with a knock out punch. You cannot escalate the force. You can use enough force to repel them. 

No. It's not the same logic. and had you read the bolded you'd understand that.

Was she repelled by his ONE punch?

She was, and it was too much force. 

[swamp]

Sept 14, 2014 21:04:11 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:02:34 GMT -5 swamp said:

Women are good at escalating things?  I used to think you were a decent guy. 

I am a decent guy. I just don't give in to the double standard. Women want equality... until they are being treated equally it seems.

Bullshit. This has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with using excessive force IN THIS SITUATION. I don't care who has the penis and who has the vagina. You cannot knock someone out who gave you a slap. 

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 21:04:19 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:02:18 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

No. It's not the same logic. and had you read the bolded you'd understand that.

Was she repelled by his ONE punch?

She was, and it was too much force. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 21:06:16 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:04:11 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

I am a decent guy. I just don't give in to the double standard. Women want equality... until they are being treated equally it seems.

Bullshit. This has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with using excessive force IN THIS SITUATION. I don't care who has the penis and who has the vagina. You cannot knock someone out who gave you a slap. 

You CAN stop someone from attacking you (unless the attacker is a woman, according to many here... then just suck it up and take it).

[steff]

Interesting escalation (apparently women are good at escalating things... maybe because they get away with it?).

Bless your heart.   You done fucked up now.  

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 21:08:54 GMT -5 steff said:

Interesting escalation (apparently women are good at escalating things... maybe because they get away with it?).

Bless your heart.   You done fucked up now.  

Probably.

The truth always gets me in trouble.

[swamp]

All I can say there is no way in hell I'm going to put your interpretation of self defense in front of a jury becuse I don't want my clients going to prison. If a client insists on it, they get a strongly worded letter advising them of the risks so when they are found guilty, I dint catch shit for ineffective assistance of counsel for failing to advise on the law. 

[steff]

Sept 14, 2014 21:09:46 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:08:54 GMT -5 steff said:

Bless your heart.   You done fucked up now.  

Probably.

The truth always gets me in trouble.

I would say something else, but I wouldn't want to "escalate" the discussion any.   I'm sure you know how that is.....

[swamp]

Sept 14, 2014 21:08:48 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:06:16 GMT -5 swamp said:

Bullshit. This has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with using excessive force IN THIS SITUATION. I don't care who has the penis and who has the vagina. You cannot knock someone out who gave you a slap. 

You CAN stop someone from attacking you (unless the attacker is a woman, according to many here... then just suck it up and take it).

I never said that. 

But in each situation, you have to look at what's reasonable. If I'm attacked by a 6'5" 300 pound guy, I'm given more leeway on the force than if a 5'0" 95 pound woman comes at me. 

[swamp]

Sept 14, 2014 21:11:44 GMT -5 steff said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:09:46 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Probably.

The truth always gets me in trouble.

I would say something else, but I wouldn't want to "escalate" the discussion any.   I'm sure you know how that is.....

Good for you for knowing your place.