Ray Rice NFL Suspension Over Domestic Violence.

[tallguy]

Bullshit. This has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with using excessive force IN THIS SITUATION.

I'd like to agree with you.  Really I would.  But when looking at the number of Zimmerman-type decisions we are forced to suffer with I just can't have that type of general belief in the system.  Nor will I be convinced that Rice would have suffered the same fate if confronted by a male instead of a female.

[swamp]

Sept 14, 2014 21:15:42 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Bullshit. This has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with using excessive force IN THIS SITUATION.

I'd like to agree with you.  Really I would.  But when looking at the number of Zimmerman-type decisions we are forced to suffer with I just can't have that type of general belief in the system.  Nor will I be convinced that Rice would have suffered the same fate if confronted by a male instead of a female.

If he spit on a guy he would have gotten his ass kicked. 

[mmhmm]

Sept 14, 2014 21:15:42 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Bullshit. This has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with using excessive force IN THIS SITUATION.

I'd like to agree with you.  Really I would.  But when looking at the number of Zimmerman-type decisions we are forced to suffer with I just can't have that type of general belief in the system.  Nor will I be convinced that Rice would have suffered the same fate if confronted by a male instead of a female.

Had the confronting male been of the same size and strength as the female in this case (comparatively), I can guarantee you I'd lock a jury over it. Swamp has said basically the same thing. So have others. I'm not alone here. People often have more sense than we give them credit for having.

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 21:13:35 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:08:48 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

You CAN stop someone from attacking you (unless the attacker is a woman, according to many here... then just suck it up and take it).

I never said that. 

But in each situation, you have to look at what's reasonable. If I'm attacked by a 6'5" 300 pound guy, I'm given more leeway on the force than if a 5'0" 95 pound woman comes at me. 

If you knock him out? Are you given a pass on it?

[steff]

Sept 14, 2014 21:14:27 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:11:44 GMT -5 steff said:

I would say something else, but I wouldn't want to "escalate" the discussion any.   I'm sure you know how that is.....

Good for you for knowing your place. 

I grew up in a violent household.  I've seen how anything, even sneezing, can escalate a situation when dealing with a violent person. 

This discussion is very frustrating & because I'm angry now, what I want to say isn't very nice.  so I'm going to step away instead. 

[mmhmm]

Sept 14, 2014 21:25:31 GMT -5 steff said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:14:27 GMT -5 swamp said:

Good for you for knowing your place. 

I grew up in a violent household.  I've seen how anything, even sneezing, can escalate a situation when dealing with a violent person. 

This discussion is very frustrating & because I'm angry now, what I want to say isn't very nice.  so I'm going to step away instead. 

I'm going with you, Steff. The utter carp some are coming up with to try to justify the unjustifiable is nauseating. 

[tallguy]

People often have more sense than we give them credit for having.

I'd take that bet.  

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 21:24:26 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:15:42 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I'd like to agree with you.  Really I would.  But when looking at the number of Zimmerman-type decisions we are forced to suffer with I just can't have that type of general belief in the system.  Nor will I be convinced that Rice would have suffered the same fate if confronted by a male instead of a female.

Had the confronting male been of the same size and strength as the female in this case (comparatively), I can guarantee you I'd lock a jury over it. Swamp has said basically the same thing. So have others. I'm not alone here. People often have more sense than we give them credit for having.

That I can agree with. However the opposite is also true. I think it's a "situational" issue. In situation A with facts B, C, D, and E... some will go one way and others the other. In situation F with facts G, H, I, and J, the stances will be reversed. What the situations and facts are is irrelevant.

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 21:26:47 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:25:31 GMT -5 steff said:

I grew up in a violent household.  I've seen how anything, even sneezing, can escalate a situation when dealing with a violent person. 

This discussion is very frustrating & because I'm angry now, what I want to say isn't very nice.  so I'm going to step away instead. 

I'm going with you, Steff. The utter carp some are coming up with to try to justify the unjustifiable is nauseating. 

I'd say the opposite. The utter carp some are coming up with to try to unjustify the justifiable is nauseating.

[Angel!]

Sept 14, 2014 21:00:11 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 20:53:54 GMT -5 Angel! said:

That is a really fucked up thing to say. 

Turns out we don't have a DV problem in this country.  We just have millions of out-of-control women that need some sense knocked into them. 

Interesting escalation (apparently women are good at escalating things... maybe because they get away with it?).

I never suggested anything of the sort, and you know it.

You didn't say it directly, but if you knew anything about DV you would realize this is how a lot of the incidents go. 

DV isn't a guy randomly beating the shit out of a women.  It is often a situation that escalates until one person uses enough force that the other can't retaliate.  It just happens that it is usually the guy that has the strength to get in the last hit.  Then there is a whole psychological game to it. There are guys that try to make these situations happen. They mess with you until you snap.  

There is a cycle that goes along with it.  I don't feel like looking it up so trying to go from memory, but after the hit there is the honeymoon phase.  They are so sorry & so sweet & love you so much.  It is the way things use to be early in the relationship & it is great.  Then things go normal for a while.  Then there is the eggshell phase.  There is tension & you feel it.  You walk around on eggshells trying not to piss them off.  But they just aren't happy & they let you know it.  Eventually everything you do is wrong & they will just poke & poke looking for a fight.  You can kiss their ass, but nothing will make them happy.  And eventually someone snaps & the incident occurs & the cycle repeats. 

Maybe it just bugs the shit out of me because I got spit on, I tried to slap him, and he punched.  Basically the same damn story.  And he will tell you it was just an automatic response.  He will tell you he had no choice.  What he won't tell you is that he was screaming at me for several minutes before he spit with absolutely no response on my part.  What he won't tell you is that when they are in that place, they are gone, GONE.  It isn't him.  There is nothing you can say to talk them down at that point to change the course of things.  They are so caught up in their own head that even if you don't respond to the screaming or name-calling or whatever they will continue until you do respond.  They want a fight.  And if you do respond, apparently you've given them license to defend themselves, so now they feel they can respond with whatever force is necessary.

And yes, I realize I am ranting and making this a personal issue.  And I realize I don't know exactly what happened between them and what their relationship is like.  So I know that it may be unreasonable to compare it to my own, but I've got nothing else to compare it to & the experiences seem pretty similar.  But, what I do know is DV.  I have lived it.  So I do take it personal & find it very offensive when you say shit like she made that response necessary.  The hell she did.  That response was way out of line & to defend it is ridiculous in my opinion.  I am in no way defending her actions, she fucked up to because they have a whole fucked up relationship.  This is a pretty classic DV episode & she absolutely fits with a battered women.  Why the hell else did they go through with the wedding the next day?  Your fiance knocks you out & drags you out of an elevator, do you think twice about the wedding?  Especially if he spit on you twice before punching you? Not when you have been down that road before (maybe not physically), you just continue the cycle & enter the honeymoon phase because he is so sorry.

She is a classic battered women & to make statements about how she needed to be punched is really f'ed up IMO. The absolute truth is that if it wasn't this time for this reason, it would have been another time for another reason. Eventually he was going to hit her (if he hadn't already).

Rant over

[Angel!]

Sept 14, 2014 21:11:44 GMT -5 steff said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:09:46 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Probably.

The truth always gets me in trouble.

I would say something else, but I wouldn't want to "escalate" the discussion any.   I'm sure you know how that is.....

I escalated it. Just like a woman.  Probably what got me punched too.  If only I learned to keep my mouth shut.

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2014 21:31:39 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:00:11 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Interesting escalation (apparently women are good at escalating things... maybe because they get away with it?).

I never suggested anything of the sort, and you know it.

You didn't say it directly, but if you knew anything about DV you would realize this is how a lot of the incidents go. 

DV isn't a guy randomly beating the shit out of a women.  It is often a situation that escalates until one person uses enough force that the other can't retaliate.  It just happens that it is usually the guy that has the strength to get in the last hit.  Then there is a whole psychological game to it. There are guys that try to make these situations happen. They mess with you until you snap.  

There is a cycle that goes along with it.  I don't feel like looking it up so trying to go from memory, but after the hit there is the honeymoon phase.  They are so sorry & so sweet & love you so much.  It is the way things use to be early in the relationship & it is great.  Then things go normal for a while.  Then there is the eggshell phase.  There is tension & you feel it.  You walk around on eggshells trying not to piss them off.  But they just aren't happy & they let you know it.  Eventually everything you do is wrong & they will just poke & poke looking for a fight.  You can kiss their ass, but nothing will make them happy.  And eventually someone snaps & the incident occurs & the cycle repeats. 

Maybe it just bugs the shit out of me because I got spit on, I tried to slap him, and he punched.  Basically the same damn story.  And he will tell you it was just an automatic response.  He will tell you he had no choice.  What he won't tell you is that he was screaming at me for several minutes before he spit with absolutely no response on my part.  What he won't tell you is that when they are in that place, they are gone, GONE.  It isn't him.  There is nothing you can say to talk them down at that point to change the course of things.  They are so caught up in their own head that even if you don't respond to the screaming or name-calling or whatever they will continue until you do respond.  They want a fight.  And if you do respond, apparently you've given them license to defend themselves, so now they feel they can respond with whatever force is necessary.

And yes, I realize I am ranting and making this a personal issue.  And I realize I don't know exactly what happened between them and what their relationship is like.  So I know that it may be unreasonable to compare it to my own, but I've got nothing else to compare it to & the experiences seem pretty similar.  But, what I do know is DV.  I have lived it.  So I do take it personal & find it very offensive when you say shit like she made that response necessary.  The hell she did.  That response was way out of line & to defend it is ridiculous in my opinion.  I am in no way defending her actions, she fucked up to because they have a whole fucked up relationship.  This is a pretty classic DV episode & she absolutely fits with a battered women.  Why the hell else did they go through with the wedding the next day?  Your fiance knocks you out & drags you out of an elevator, do you think twice about the wedding?  Especially if he spit on you twice before punching you? Not when you have been down that road before (maybe not physically), you just continue the cycle & enter the honeymoon phase because he is so sorry.

She is a classic battered women & to make statements about how she needed to be punched is really f'ed up IMO. The absolute truth is that if it wasn't this time for this reason, it would have been another time for another reason. Eventually he was going to hit her (if he hadn't already).

Rant over

It may be how "a lot of incidents go" but I am not commenting on "a lot of incidents", I am commenting on THIS incident.

I'm sorry you had an abusive relationship.

[OldCoyote]

Now that we have established that it's not right for a big man to beat a woman how about this?

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I have to side with Angel! 100% here - UNTIL someone's experienced, lived through, and managed to come out alive, you have NO idea. A slap or a spit is just the beginning. It has nothing to do with WHO started it - it's who decides to put an end to it WITHOUT getting physically or verbally abusive - or decides to keep pushing until the other person is so emotionally or physically beaten-down.

I was going to "like" her post above mine (#325 above) but it didn't seem appropriate to like her situation. - speaking from someone who knows.

[Angel!]

Sept 14, 2014 21:43:04 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:31:39 GMT -5 Angel! said:

You didn't say it directly, but if you knew anything about DV you would realize this is how a lot of the incidents go. 

DV isn't a guy randomly beating the shit out of a women.  It is often a situation that escalates until one person uses enough force that the other can't retaliate.  It just happens that it is usually the guy that has the strength to get in the last hit.  Then there is a whole psychological game to it. There are guys that try to make these situations happen. They mess with you until you snap.  

There is a cycle that goes along with it.  I don't feel like looking it up so trying to go from memory, but after the hit there is the honeymoon phase.  They are so sorry & so sweet & love you so much.  It is the way things use to be early in the relationship & it is great.  Then things go normal for a while.  Then there is the eggshell phase.  There is tension & you feel it.  You walk around on eggshells trying not to piss them off.  But they just aren't happy & they let you know it.  Eventually everything you do is wrong & they will just poke & poke looking for a fight.  You can kiss their ass, but nothing will make them happy.  And eventually someone snaps & the incident occurs & the cycle repeats. 

Maybe it just bugs the shit out of me because I got spit on, I tried to slap him, and he punched.  Basically the same damn story.  And he will tell you it was just an automatic response.  He will tell you he had no choice.  What he won't tell you is that he was screaming at me for several minutes before he spit with absolutely no response on my part.  What he won't tell you is that when they are in that place, they are gone, GONE.  It isn't him.  There is nothing you can say to talk them down at that point to change the course of things.  They are so caught up in their own head that even if you don't respond to the screaming or name-calling or whatever they will continue until you do respond.  They want a fight.  And if you do respond, apparently you've given them license to defend themselves, so now they feel they can respond with whatever force is necessary.

And yes, I realize I am ranting and making this a personal issue.  And I realize I don't know exactly what happened between them and what their relationship is like.  So I know that it may be unreasonable to compare it to my own, but I've got nothing else to compare it to & the experiences seem pretty similar.  But, what I do know is DV.  I have lived it.  So I do take it personal & find it very offensive when you say shit like she made that response necessary.  The hell she did.  That response was way out of line & to defend it is ridiculous in my opinion.  I am in no way defending her actions, she fucked up to because they have a whole fucked up relationship.  This is a pretty classic DV episode & she absolutely fits with a battered women.  Why the hell else did they go through with the wedding the next day?  Your fiance knocks you out & drags you out of an elevator, do you think twice about the wedding?  Especially if he spit on you twice before punching you? Not when you have been down that road before (maybe not physically), you just continue the cycle & enter the honeymoon phase because he is so sorry.

She is a classic battered women & to make statements about how she needed to be punched is really f'ed up IMO. The absolute truth is that if it wasn't this time for this reason, it would have been another time for another reason. Eventually he was going to hit her (if he hadn't already).

Rant over

It may be how "a lot of incidents go" but I am not commenting on "a lot of incidents", I am commenting on THIS incident.

I'm sorry you had an abusive relationship.

Spin it how you want. Your defending a man punching a women who is clearly in an abusive relationship & pretending it is self-defense. That is a load a BS & that is why he got charged.

ETA - I am just glad our legal system recognizes DV for what it is & doesn't just say "well she deserved it"

[Tennesseer]

Sept 14, 2014 21:46:57 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Now that we have established that it's not right for a big man to beat a woman how about this?

You have yet to answer if domestic violence and this case particularly is (collectively) our 'business'. Is it or is it not?

[Angel!]

Sept 14, 2014 21:51:42 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So, it's OK for a woman to snap and hit a guy if he's being a dick, but if he snaps and hits her his life should be ruined because he's a waste of human flesh. I'm not totally on board with that. The double standard is a bit much to swallow.

NO!  Where did anyone say that??  I have said multiple, multiple times she was wrong & had it actually ended there, she would have been charged & he absolutely could have made sure the charges didn't get dropped.

The problem here is the level of force used.  And yes, it just sucks for you guys being so strong & probably more practiced at fighting.  So when you hit, it will be a better, stronger punch. 

She wasn't going to significantly hurt him or knock him out, even with multiple hits.  He wasn't in any danger.  There was no need to punch her lights out.  He choose that path.  He used way above the level of force needed.

And his life isn't ruined.  If he doesn't fuck up his program, he can be back in the NFL in a year tops.  He just is paying big consequences for a big mistake.

[chiver78]

Sept 14, 2014 11:00:17 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 14, 2014 10:55:26 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

By the way, I doubt this was the couple's first dance around the brawl room.  A toxic relationship for sure.

While we all may think this wasn't the first occurrence of violence between these two, we're guessing. Our surmises may, or may not be correct.

IMHO, nobody reacts as nonchalantly to what they have done like Rice did in that video, the first time they have a domestic altercation. no, I don't have personal experience with physical DV, thankfully, but I have had a pretty controlling relationship that took me years to recover from. things like what was seen in that video don't just suddenly happen. sorry if you disagree, but you will never change my opinion on that.

[Angel!]

And part of the reason to charge him is because if we all just shrug and say "well she shouldn't have hit him first", then the pattern absolutely continues.  At least now he is in a program that may change the course of their relationship.  And if he finishes it, this doesn't even go on his record. 

ETA - maybe there should be some requirement that abused women go into a program too, but I don't know how they could do that.  I do know they hand you a whole bunch of information on where to seek help, etc, etc.

[OldCoyote]

First, I have not read all the post on this yet.  but towards the end it appears that everything that involves violence between a man and a woman is everyones business.

I just threw this in to see if this was considered violence.  If this was not a police officer, he would have been charged with attempted murder.

A public figure, on public payroll, not private. Now is a video star.

  

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Sept 14, 2014 21:51:42 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So, it's OK for a woman to snap and hit a guy if he's being a dick, but if he snaps and hits her his life should be ruined because he's a waste of human flesh. I'm not totally on board with that. The double standard is a bit much to swallow.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly didn't say that. I said that ANY partner who takes the first step to abuse or belittle is wrong (whether that be spitting, striking, verbally humiliating, or controlling, etc) - be it the man OR the woman.

It's the person who strikes back or retaliates instead of removing themselves from the situation who makes the vicious cycle continue - until one or both of them ends up paying the price - often that price is not pretty.





.

[mmhmm]

Sept 14, 2014 22:02:04 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Sept 14, 2014 11:00:17 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

While we all may think this wasn't the first occurrence of violence between these two, we're guessing. Our surmises may, or may not be correct.

IMHO, nobody reacts as nonchalantly to what they have done like Rice did in that video, the first time they have a domestic altercation. no, I don't have personal experience with physical DV, thankfully, but I have had a pretty controlling relationship that took me years to recover from. things like what was seen in that video don't just suddenly happen. sorry if you disagree, but you will never change my opinion on that.

Didn't say I disagree. I don't. What I said was, we're guessing and our guess might be incorrect. We have no real knowledge upon which to base an absolute surety that this was not an isolated incident. I've had such a relationship, too. You ain't alone.

[OldCoyote]

Scottish Lassie, That was my point The officer ,hits this woman many times but maybe it's OK because she might have done something and he is just doing his job.

On the other hand Rice hit her once,  I thought that this was between Rice, his wife, the police and the Judge.

Not just because he was making millions of dollars. 

[mmhmm]

Sept 14, 2014 21:51:42 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So, it's OK for a woman to snap and hit a guy if he's being a dick, but if he snaps and hits her his life should be ruined because he's a waste of human flesh. I'm not totally on board with that. The double standard is a bit much to swallow.

Hell to the no! If a woman clocks some poor guy in an elevator and drags him halfway out, then leaves him lying there, she should get the same damned treatment!

[chiver78]

Sept 14, 2014 22:11:15 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 14, 2014 22:02:04 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

IMHO, nobody reacts as nonchalantly to what they have done like Rice did in that video, the first time they have a domestic altercation. no, I don't have personal experience with physical DV, thankfully, but I have had a pretty controlling relationship that took me years to recover from. things like what was seen in that video don't just suddenly happen. sorry if you disagree, but you will never change my opinion on that.

Didn't say I disagree. I don't. What I said was, we're guessing and our guess might be incorrect. We have no real knowledge upon which to base an absolute surety that this was not an isolated incident. I've had such a relationship, too. You ain't alone.

I'm not at all interested in a pissing match over whose previous relationship was worse. I'm merely making an observation based on my own experience. I would also say that I'm not alone in the pool of potential jurors that could be called to decide the case, should he not complete whatever program he's been assigned to. or, ya know, the next time he takes a swing.

she's not without blame here either, but it's hard to gauge her reaction to hurting him since we haven't seen it - she wasn't conscious at the end of that video. as always, YMMV

[mmhmm]

Sept 14, 2014 22:35:23 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Sept 14, 2014 22:11:15 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Didn't say I disagree. I don't. What I said was, we're guessing and our guess might be incorrect. We have no real knowledge upon which to base an absolute surety that this was not an isolated incident. I've had such a relationship, too. You ain't alone.

I'm not at all interested in a pissing match over whose previous relationship was worse. I'm merely making an observation based on my own experience. I would also say that I'm not alone in the pool of potential jurors that could be called to decide the case, should he not complete whatever program he's been assigned to. or, ya know, the next time he takes a swing.

she's not without blame here either, but it's hard to gauge her reaction to hurting him since we haven't seen it - she wasn't conscious at the end of that video. as always, YMMV

LOL! I'm not interested in a "pissing match" either, which would probably explain why I didn't make a comparison, but simply recognized a shared experience.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 14, 2014 19:48:57 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Sept 14, 2014 12:08:31 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

my four cents:

two for the board: other than being with this jerk, and staying with him, i don't see how this woman is in ANY WAY responsible for getting herself knocked out.

two cents for Richard: i advise you not to suggest otherwise. 

I agree that he's responsible for knocking her out (I never said otherwise), however... she is responsible for making that necessary. 

i don't think you understood the gist of my advice. 

[djAdvocate]

Sept 14, 2014 20:58:58 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 14, 2014 20:57:38 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It has nothing to do with what you have learned in 18 years of criminal law. My question simply was "did the attack stop?" It's a simple question, no sarcasm is required to answer it.


When defending one's self, one has the right to make the attack stop (without killing {unless the threat one is defending against is deadly force}... which he didn't do). So, I'll ask again: Did the attack stop?

So he could kill her to stop the attack?   Same logic. 

Stabbing her would stop it. Shooting her, cutting off her arm, they'd all stop the attack. You can't answer a slap with a knock out punch. You cannot escalate the force. You can use enough force to repel them. 

?hat is precisely right.  i was wondering if someone would mention that.  how about beheading?  we seem to love bringing that one up these days.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 14, 2014 21:51:42 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So, it's OK for a woman to snap and hit a guy if he's being a dick, but if he snaps and hits her his life should be ruined because he's a waste of human flesh. I'm not totally on board with that. The double standard is a bit much to swallow.

i have not really participated in the conversation thusfar, but if you are failing to distinguish between someone slapping at someone, and someone knocking someone else unconscious, i don't really know what to say.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 14, 2014 22:23:20 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 14, 2014 21:51:42 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

So, it's OK for a woman to snap and hit a guy if he's being a dick, but if he snaps and hits her his life should be ruined because he's a waste of human flesh. I'm not totally on board with that. The double standard is a bit much to swallow.

Hell to the no! If a woman clocks some poor guy in an elevator and drags him halfway out, then leaves him lying there, she should get the same damned treatment!

precisely.  there is a distinction between, say, slapping someone, and permanently disfiguring their face with a knife, but both are assault.