And this is why

[TheHaitian]

Sept 9, 2014 18:47:28 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 9, 2014 18:39:46 GMT -5 Angel! said:

They will already have a statement, pictures, a 911 call, possibly witnesses.  If there is evidence of that sort (and there should be if there was an arrest), then they will proceed.

Most of the time guys will just plead out anyway.  If they have to actually take it to trial, the DA may drop charges.  Maybe swamp knows better, but I doubt most cases get to trial.  My ex was looking at 6 charges (I think).  They offered to drop 5 of them, gave him a deal that required no jail time if he did so much counseling & classes.  Plus, no one was bailing him out so he was looking at sitting in jail for months while awaiting a trial, so a lot of pros to taking the deal at that point. 

98% of cases pleas out.  There aren't resources to take everything to trial. 

What happens when there is a second and third offense?

Or when it seems like a regular thing and cop is at their house every other weekend?

[swamp]

Sept 9, 2014 19:48:21 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Sept 9, 2014 18:47:28 GMT -5 swamp said:

98% of cases pleas out.  There aren't resources to take everything to trial. 

What happens when there is a second and third offense?

Or when it seems like a regular thing and cop is at their house every other weekend?

Plea not as favorable. If they are there all the time, orders of protection will be issued, and somebody will end up in jail. 

[mmhmm]

Sept 9, 2014 19:02:02 GMT -5 achelois said:

Sept 9, 2014 19:00:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

And she could have stayed on her side of the elevator when he physically retreated away from her.

Yes. She behaved abominably. I do not fault him for being upset or angry with her, but only for excessive force. I would agree with him if he had restrained her so that she could not hit or kick him, or at least attempted that and only proceeded to higher level of force if that was ineffective. But I think he could have restrained her and further use of force would have proved unnecessary. 

Had he restrained her instead of clocking her, dragging her out and leaving her unconcious, halfway out of the elevator, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. He chose another way. It was the wrong way.

[tallguy]

A) I think everything we know about this case indicates that she is a long time sufferer of domestic violence.

I saw the video and I thought the same thing Stina said. That that wasn't the first time he'd hit her.

First, I have not seen the video, but from what I have heard I'm not sure I would agree.  Everyone is saying that she came after him first, and not just once.  While I have had no experience whatsoever with domestic violence, I cannot imagine any woman who has been repeatedly abused ever trying to physically attack the abuser.  It just doesn't make sense (and not to suggest that abuse ever does or should make sense.)  But why would a woman used to being abused over little or nothing give an abuser a reason to be physical in return?  Unless you can tell me that a history of abuse renders one so mentally unstable that they will provoke the abuser by hitting him (which may indeed be a possibility, I don't know) I just can't see it.  I find it far more credible that real long-term victims don't provoke abusers and instead try anything they can to avoid it.  But please, educate me if that is not the case. 

[justme]

Sept 9, 2014 19:26:14 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

It never ever surprises me when a professional athlete beats someone up.  They are rewarded handsomely for a testosterone-induced, strong physical reaction all day, every day.  Football is the worst because the actual game is so violent.  I think if you spend all day smacking into people and crushing them (or getting crushed) you lose perspective on how normal non-physical life is.  

and (2) this looks like one f'd up relationship.  

I've heard people say that and have wondered why I can't think of the last time I heard a hockey player beating the crap out of his partner. It is a much more violent sport than any of the big ones. Does it just not make the news because not as many follow hockey? Does the game allowing then to actually fight help? Or something else?

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2014 20:02:40 GMT -5 tallguy said:

A) I think everything we know about this case indicates that she is a long time sufferer of domestic violence.

I saw the video and I thought the same thing Stina said. That that wasn't the first time he'd hit her.

First, I have not seen the video, but from what I have heard I'm not sure I would agree.  Everyone is saying that she came after him first, and not just once.  While I have had no experience whatsoever with domestic violence, I cannot imagine any woman who has been repeatedly abused ever trying to physically attack the abuser.  It just doesn't make sense (and not to suggest that abuse ever does or should make sense.)  But why would a woman used to being abused over little or nothing give an abuser a reason to be physical in return?  Unless you can tell me that a history of abuse renders one so mentally unstable that they will provoke the abuser by hitting him (which may indeed be a possibility, I don't know) I just can't see it.  I find it far more credible that real long-term victims don't provoke abusers and instead try anything they can to avoid it.  But please, educate me if that is not the case. 

I can tell you what happened to me.  I was this quiet, never said boo to anyone person that was driven damn near mad in a short period of time.  You get where you feel so trapped and desperate.  I did and said things I never thought I would.  I took swings at my ex and I got knocked out for it too.  You can only scream "please stop it!" so much when he's telling your 2 year old to call you an effin b*** before you snap.  I've tried running him over with my van too.  When he jumps on the front of it when you're trying to get away and is hanging off the side, all you care about is getting him off and getting the hell out of there.

Looking back it's like watching a movie.  It doesn't seem real.

[tallguy]

I've tried running him over with my van too.

That I can understand.  Or a gun, or a knife while he's asleep.  Something where you can in even a small way insulate yourself from getting beaten up.  You also say that you took swings at him, and I take you at your word on that.  But I still find it hard to believe that long-term abuse victims will generally provoke the abuser by attacking with their fists.  That almost can't end in any desired outcome.

[Deleted]

Mine wasn't long-term.  Ex's breakdown was over about a 12-18 month period.  I consider myself lucky there.  His mental health issue was severe and sudden enough that it ended abruptly and the time apart helped clear my head.  It was good for him too because, you go crazy enough you get a lot of help thrown your way.

[Angel!]

The video was so blurry it is hard to tell what happened. I thought he smacked her and that is why she went after him. Did others see it different or are they just repeating the story they heard?

And as far as her hitting him, most dv situations are escalations like this. My ex spit on me, I tried to slap him (sort of, it was a weak attempt, more like a push) but mostly missed, then he punched me. None of those events had EVER occurred between is before. He had never laid a hand on me, much less spit on me before that day. You feed off each other and it spirals out of control. The guy usually gets in trouble because he is usually the stronger one and inflicts more injury.

Had rice called the police after she hit and spit on him (if she truly started it), she would have been arrested and charged. Men rarely opt for that path. Instead he responded with unnecessary force and got charged.

[mmhmm]

Sept 9, 2014 20:37:14 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I've tried running him over with my van too.

That I can understand.  Or a gun, or a knife while he's asleep.  Something where you can in even a small way insulate yourself from getting beaten up.  You also say that you took swings at him, and I take you at your word on that.  But I still find it hard to believe that long-term abuse victims will generally provoke the abuser by attacking with their fists.  That almost can't end in any desired outcome.

It does happen; albeit, not often. There comes a time when the abused individual begins to realize this is ALL WRONG. For some, that time never comes, but for those who reach it, anger is a common reaction. They start to get angry - really angry. They make up their minds the next time will be the last. Rather than cower as they've always done, they may try to fight back thinking if they do, the abuse may stop. It rarely does. It just gets worse.

[Abby Normal]

Sept 9, 2014 19:03:45 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

billisonboard why don't you start a thread about female on male abuse. It is different than this situation. The men are considered wimps and are embarrassed to report it. The nature of it is different than male on female abuse.

I think that is Bills point.  The stereotype involved when woman are abused (poor helpless victim) verses when men are abused (wimps).

To be fair, I can see his point.  I know a man who was abused by his wife.  She was a bit psycho and he was a navy man.  Only reason I know is because I saw him a couple hours after she hit him in the head with a frying pan.  You do have the embarrassment part correct.  What man wants to admit that. He put up with it for a  long time before he found greener pastures.

Abuse (be it physical, mental, emotional) of any partners, parent, child, relative, friend, animal or (anything else I haven't named) should not be tolerated.

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2014 19:46:32 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I can't see the video here at work, but if she really started this with hitting and spitting than why are there no charges against both parties?  Yes, this guy has a huge self control problem but then so does she.  This is not a healthy relationship for either one of them.

She was charged but her charges were dropped and he pled out.

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2014 19:03:45 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

billisonboard why don't you start a thread about female on male abuse. It is different than this situation. ...

Did you watch the video? She hit him a couple of times first and attacked him in the elevator.

[thyme4change]

Sept 9, 2014 20:03:07 GMT -5 justme said:

Sept 9, 2014 19:26:14 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

It never ever surprises me when a professional athlete beats someone up.  They are rewarded handsomely for a testosterone-induced, strong physical reaction all day, every day.  Football is the worst because the actual game is so violent.  I think if you spend all day smacking into people and crushing them (or getting crushed) you lose perspective on how normal non-physical life is.  

and (2) this looks like one f'd up relationship.  

I've heard people say that and have wondered why I can't think of the last time I heard a hockey player beating the crap out of his partner. It is a much more violent sport than any of the big ones. Does it just not make the news because not as many follow hockey? Does the game allowing then to actually fight help? Or something else?

Good question.  Maybe I am wrong.  I would have assumed that the lack of hockey player news is commiserateto the lack of hockey coverage and lack of hockey interest in my area.  

[billisonboard]

I was thinking it was the lack of women being willing to go out with hockey players. 

[thyme4change]

Sept 9, 2014 22:55:20 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I was thinking it was the lack of women being willing to go out with hockey players. 

We all love teeth.  

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

And keeping them in our mouths where they belong.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Hockey players and football players usually come from much different backgrounds/upbringings.

Professional hockey players are for the most part only aggressive while playing their sport on the ice - it's part of the game to be forceful against the opposing team - BUT those players are also usually penalized or in some cases, fined for their actions on ice and rarely take those aggressions of the game into their private lives and act on them.

Professional football players also have to be aggressive on the playing field against their opposing team - but more often than not, those same players take that aggression home with them and inflict it on a partner or spouse, if you look at statistics.

Does the death of Nicole Simpson come to mind? There are more cases of spousal/partner abuse inflicted by football players besides hers. You won't see those same statistics in regards to hockey players and their partners.

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2014 23:18:03 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

..., if you look at statistics.
...

Would love to. Have a link those you looked at to make this claim?

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I'm about to turn in for the night, and don't have time to look up the stats on spousal/partner abuse regarding professional athletes, but this link shows that for criminal charges (including some abuse cases or cases of assault), there are 8 cases of criminal charges listed for Prof. Hockey Players and 35 against Prof Football Players - and these stats are not current. OJ is only listed on here once and that's for robbery and kidnapping. I'll try to find more detailed stats tomorrow - in the meantime, you might want to do your own research.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sportspeople_convicted_of_crimes

[Phoenix84]

I never really understood why women (or men) stay in abusive relationships. But I can see some how's and why's.

1. Abusers tend to cut off all contact of the victim from the outside world, including friends and family. So the victim feels isolated and they have no one to turn to.

2. Kind of related to the above, the abuser often holds the power of money over the abused. Often leaving the abuser means essentially being homeless. The abused may not have the life skills and/or job skills to function on their own.

3. Kids are often involved, and having kids in the picture often complicates things immensely. Would you be willing to take the kids with you and live essentially a homeless lifestyle? What if they find you? Will the authorities take the kids away? If you leave the kids, will the abuser take out their frustrations on them? I could see a lot of problems if kids are in the picture.

4. Often the abused may feel like no one will believe them about the abuser. Many times abusers can be otherwise likable and upstanding members of society, the ones you least expect.

I also think there can be complex psychological process going on. As I've said before, never underestimate the power of denial. Furthermore, some people just have no idea what a normal relationship looks like and think that kind of thing is normal.

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2014 23:49:16 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I'm about to turn in for the night, and don't have time to look up the stats on spousal/partner abuse regarding professional athletes, but this link shows that for criminal charges (including some abuse cases or cases of assault), there are 8 cases of criminal charges listed for Prof. Hockey Players and 35 against Prof Football Players - and these stats are not current. OJ is only listed on here once and that's for robbery and kidnapping. I'll try to find more detailed stats tomorrow - in the meantime, you might want to do your own research.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sportspeople_convicted_of_crimes

No problem. Just thought since you indicated the stats support your claim, that you would have a link to the stats that support your claim.

[achelois]

Sept 9, 2014 20:01:49 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 9, 2014 19:02:02 GMT -5 achelois said:

Yes. She behaved abominably. I do not fault him for being upset or angry with her, but only for excessive force. I would agree with him if he had restrained her so that she could not hit or kick him, or at least attempted that and only proceeded to higher level of force if that was ineffective. But I think he could have restrained her and further use of force would have proved unnecessary. 

Had he restrained her instead of clocking her, dragging her out and leaving her unconcious, halfway out of the elevator, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. He chose another way. It was the wrong way.

Yes it was. My point exactly. 

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2014 23:55:23 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

I never really understood why women (or men) stay in abusive relationships. But I can see some how's and why's.

1. Abusers tend to cut off all contact of the victim from the outside world, including friends and family. So the victim feels isolated and they have no one to turn to.

2. Kind of related to the above, the abuser often holds the power of money over the abused. Often leaving the abuser means essentially being homeless. The abused may not have the life skills and/or job skills to function on their own.

3. Kids are often involved, and having kids in the picture often complicates things immensely. Would you be willing to take the kids with you and live essentially a homeless lifestyle? What if they find you? Will the authorities take the kids away? If you leave the kids, will the abuser take out their frustrations on them? I could see a lot of problems if kids are in the picture.

4. Often the abused may feel like no one will believe them about the abuser. Many times abusers can be otherwise likable and upstanding members of society, the ones you least expect.

I also think there can be complex psychological process going on. As I've said before, never underestimate the power of denial. Furthermore, some people just have no idea what a normal relationship looks like and think that kind of thing is normal.

Plus try living where you're told over and over that YOU'RE the problem.  That YOU'RE the one messing up the family.  You start to believe it.  It doesn't make sense, but abusers can twist things like you wouldn't believe.

[973beachbum]

Sept 9, 2014 20:47:35 GMT -5 Angel! said:

The video was so blurry it is hard to tell what happened. I thought he smacked her and that is why she went after him. Did others see it different or are they just repeating the story they heard?

And as far as her hitting him, most dv situations are escalations like this. My ex spit on me, I tried to slap him (sort of, it was a weak attempt, more like a push) but mostly missed, then he punched me. None of those events had EVER occurred between is before. He had never laid a hand on me, much less spit on me before that day. You feed off each other and it spirals out of control. The guy usually gets in trouble because he is usually the stronger one and inflicts more injury.

Had rice called the police after she hit and spit on him (if she truly started it), she would have been arrested and charged. Men rarely opt for that path. Instead he responded with unnecessary force and got charged.

It has been on the news 8 times a day here because of how close AC is.  And it definitely looked like she hit him first although it didn't look like much of a punch to me. 

I will add that I was punched by a woman and she managed to break my nose and she was smaller and much older than the woman in the video.  so just saying he should have let her hit him until the doors opened is more than a little wrong.  How much getting hurt will cause long term damage or pain isn't a reason to not be allowed to defend yourself.   

I don't know.  She was clearly knocked out cold, but if I was on the jury that video would be a double edged sword.

[zibazinski]

Some women put up with it because of the money. They don't want to give up their cushy lifestyle and maybe have to support themselves. Or lose control over their kids. The reasons are endless. As are the abusers and the abused.

[thyme4change]

She looks like a physically strong woman.  Not that it makes it right to hit her or whatever.  But she looks like she is taller than him, and is no waif.  I'm not saying that critically,  she has a great shape.  Maybe she is my size, which wouldn't make her strong - I am the definition of a weakling.    Maybe I am being fooled by the look she has on her face.  It makes her look tough.  I can't find any pictures of her arm muscles being all cut or anything.  

[thyme4change]

What a pointless post!  Pure rambling.

[thyme4change]

Okay - I just watched the video, and it clearly is a mess.  He definitely punched her, but I don't think he (technically) knocked her out.  I think she hit her head on the bar on the wall of the elevator and that was what made her go unconscious.  (Still his fault.)  You can see her head snap up.  

[Phoenix84]

Sept 10, 2014 8:45:43 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Sept 9, 2014 20:47:35 GMT -5 Angel! said:

It has been on the news 8 times a day here because of how close AC is.  And it definitely looked like she hit him first although it didn't look like much of a punch to me. 

I will add that I was punched by a woman and she managed to break my nose and she was smaller and much older than the woman in the video.  so just saying he should have let her hit him until the doors opened is more than a little wrong.  How much getting hurt will cause long term damage or pain isn't a reason to not be allowed to defend yourself.   

I don't know.  She was clearly knocked out cold, but if I was on the jury that video would be a double edged sword.

I think women can often underestimate the damage they could do.  Sure, you may be weaker physically, but anyone who studies martial arts knows that size and strength aren't everything.

When I was taking karate, we often sparred.  I was paired up with a fit, but far older and smaller woman.  I guess she must have been in her 50's or 60's.  I was maybe 17 at the time.

During the drills, she managed to headbutt me right in the face, hard.  Almost broke my nose and caused a pretty bad nosebleed.  I didn't go down, but staggered and was dizzy for a while.

It was an accident, she misjudged the distance I was at.  She obviously felt bad and apologized profusely, but still, a woman can still do some damage against a man, even a large man if they get lucky or they know what they're doing.

I'm not saying this excuses the reaction, or "blaming the victim."  But I also do not accept that a woman can cause serious physical harm to a larger opponent, and that she is "harmless."