And this is why

[souldoubt]

Sept 9, 2014 16:49:44 GMT -5 Rocky Mtn Saver said:

Sept 9, 2014 16:36:31 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

So since she wasn't a "threat" (whatever that means), it is okay for her to physically attack him?

Is it justified for someone who's professionally trained to knock someone else who is not able to render them real harm, completely unconscious?  He didn't retaliate in kind, he used his professional force to overwhelm the other even knowing that she couldn't do him real damage based on training and physical prowess. 

He's a professional football player not a fighter.  It's not like his hands or body are registered weapons.  She hit him and spit on him and he responded with his fists.  It sure wasn't right but she got physical with him and he got physical with her.  Trying to downplay what either of them did does nothing.

[taz157]

Sept 9, 2014 15:59:07 GMT -5 simser said:

Although something similar is how you think your family is normal, and we all think it's not normal? It's kinda like that.

Sooooooooooooooooo yeah that!

[Angel!]

Sept 9, 2014 16:45:09 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Sept 9, 2014 16:26:05 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

You haven't needed a woman's consent or testimony to pursue and arrest someone for abuse for a very long time now.

If that's true, then why isn't it prosecuted more often? Serious question.

And no, it's not ok for her to hit him either. He should have walked away instead of hitting her back. Their whole relationship is a complete mess, they both need some serious help.

First offense & he made a deal.  It is prosecuted often, but usually they just plead to something lower.  If it goes to trial, then it becomes a he-said/she-said & if she is unwilling to be involved, then it is just her written statement, which may not be worth much.

Zib is right though, in almost every state (maybe all?) a DV is automatically prosecuted with or without the victim. 

[Angel!]

Sept 9, 2014 15:28:31 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Unless you've been there, you won't understand. It's not logical at all. But that's the key - they aren't thinking logically. They've been abused physically and mentally and are not thinking like you would.

  This came up in the NFL thread, so i am going to copy some of what I posted over there.  I think you just don't understand until you've lived it though, I certainly didn't.

Sept 8, 2014 15:41:22 GMT -5 Angel! said:

If you believe it is a one-time thing, then you aren't worried about ending up dead or beaten to a pulp. Don't know this woman's story specifically though.

And I don't know how you fix it. I don't consider myself a weak woman. I didn't need him. I have a degree in engineering an awesome job.; The relationship just becomes twisted little by little. Until what is your normal is a horrible relationship to an outsider. But, you love him. But, he is sick, under stress, whatever. But, things are going to be different this time. But, do you really want to end a long-term relationship over a mistake...he knows it was a mistake & is really sorry.

It is easy to say you would leave. Much harder to live it & do it; Maybe it is how I grew up, but part of me defined myself by my relationship. My parents are still married to this day. All we ever hear is that marriage is hard work. I pictured myself married to this guy til I died, that is a hard picture to change. Does "til death do us part" really just mean, until he screws up really bad. And how bad is really bad. When is it time to walk. Do you stop loving someone when they make a mistake. Do I want to split my family when I truly believe he is sorry & understands why he screwed up. If it that easy to turn and walk away, did you really love him that much to begin with. Yeah, my marriage isn't perfect, but the alternative is single mom. 1% of the time my marriage sucks, I can deal with that 1% or go to being 100% alone which will suck much more of the time. I didn't need him, yet I wanted him. I wanted my whole family together because that is what my life was supposed to be. That was how I grew up, I didn't want my kids to deal with divorce & not having their dad around.  My counselor had me start a journal. The only thing I ever wrote in it was "This wasn't supposed to be my life".

I don't know what you do. I feel bad for her. It is a sucky position made far worse because it is under public scrutiny.

ETA - rereading my post, much of it was rambling train of thought. Sorry if it doesn't really follow.

Sept 9, 2014 16:05:21 GMT -5 Angel! said:

FWIW, I filed for legal separation & he moved out when he hit me. It was also the first and last time he ever did, although I am guessing many people assumed otherwise. And I cried & cried & cried. Because regardless of the circumstances that was someone I loved & you don't just get over that. I stayed with my parents for a while. The first day I came home I couldn't stop crying because everything in the house reminded me of him. The basement he finished & now wouldn't get to enjoy, the pictures of us on the wall. All because of a few minutes of our lives that changed everything. A few minutes that we both would have given anything to change, but you can't change it. It happened & changed everything going forward.

It sucked. What made it suck worse is the people that didn't understand why it was hard, that didn't understand why it sucked. The people that said I should be happy he is gone. I should be happy my marriage ended? How the hell am I supposed to feel happy about that?

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2014 17:01:13 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

Sept 9, 2014 16:58:12 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

He was cornered in an enclosed space with her coming at him.

I hope you're just playing devil's advocate and not actually justifying what this piece of shit did...

Not quite "devil's advocate" (by my definition of the term) but attempting to bring awareness of the fact that violence against males by females is socially not condemned, if not actually accepted. Reverse the genders in the video. Place a can of mace in "her" hand. Is she defending herself?

How about this one:

Think they would have filmed one with each of six bottles of the "wrong" beer sticking out of her various bodily openings?

[Deleted]

I saw the video and I thought the same thing Stina said. That that wasn't the first time he'd hit her. He seemed too cool when she fell out and while he was dragging her halfway out of the elevator, like it was no big deal.

Domestic violence has been a hot topic in my area lately. A couple weeks ago a man went to the daycare where his wife worked and shot and killed her. Then he went home and called the police before he killed himself. Yesterday a man shot a woman in a store parking lot. She died today and the police are still searching for him. Both couples had a history of reported domestic violence. The lady at the daycare had recently filed for divorce from her husband.

I work with a woman whose husband beat her regularly. If she could come to work, she'd be bruised up, have black eyes and patches of hair missing. I use to tell her that she didn't deserve that from anyone, no woman does. Her Mom use to encourage her to stay with him, even though he didn't work and had women in her house while she was at work and beat her all the time. WTF is that for a mother to tell her daughter? She didn't wake up until the state removed her children from the home because of everything that was going on. Then she left and worked on getting her children back. It took a few years. One day she was talking about some of the things he'd done to her and I asked her why she stayed. She gave me a sad look and said "Because I loved him".  

[weltschmerz]

Sept 9, 2014 15:59:07 GMT -5 simser said:

As a former abused spouse I can tell you that in that life, your whole sense of reality goes wonky. I got out only after living on my own for 2 years while still "being married" and I was finally able to relax in my own house, rather than not doing things because they would set him off. My coworkers saw me change into a different person. I had a really good friend today ask me about my new boy. He actually said "let the judging commence". He was trying to make sure that I don't fall into the same trap as I did before.

It's not something you will understand until you go through it. And may you never have to. But my biggest recommendation to anyone is that one of the most HARMFUL things you can do is say "well I have no sympathy because she chose to stay". It's victim blaming.

Although something similar is how you think your family is normal, and we all think it's not normal? It's kinda like that.

Yep. What abusers do is methodically strip away their victims' friends, family, self-esteem and identity, until there's nothing left but a shell of a human being.

[billisonboard]

Sept 9, 2014 17:25:28 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

... He seemed too cool when she fell out and while he was dragging her halfway out of the elevator, like it was no big deal.
...

Sept 9, 2014 17:32:02 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

... Yep. What abusers do is methodically strip away their victims' friends, family, self-esteem and identity, until there's nothing left but a shell of a human being. ...

So I wonder how often she hit him.

[justme]

She shouldn't have hit/spit him, and there's probably been back and forth on both sides - but I'm quite positive he had enough strength to subdue her until he was able to exit the elevator.

I mean, if a kid is hitting you and you are quite a bit stronger than them - do you knock them out or grab their hands and keep them away from you so they can't keep hitting you? 

[Angel!]

Sept 9, 2014 18:02:59 GMT -5 justme said:

She shouldn't have hit/spit him, and there's probably been back and forth on both sides - but I'm quite positive he had enough strength to subdue her until he was able to exit the elevator.

I mean, if a kid is hitting you and you are quite a bit stronger than them - do you knock them out or grab their hands and keep them away from you so they can't keep hitting you? 

Although I can guarantee part of the reason she stays is that she does feel she escalated the situation.  If I hadn't....

Most of the world just sees an abuser & can't figure out why she is so stupid to stay.  She sees the man she loves who doesn't act that way 99% of the time & feels that it is partly her fault because she either instigated or escalated the situation to that point.

I'm not saying it is right, but just trying to explain for those that don't understand.  Be glad you don't understand, because I think often you have to live it to understand it.

[Peace Of Mind]

Sept 9, 2014 16:00:17 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Part of the problem is we need to stop letting the victims decide if they want to press charges or not.

I am honestly worried for Rice's wife. If he was an asshole when he was on top of the world, things are only going to deteriorate from here.

They can't do much when the victim refuses to testify.  And I'm worried for their children.  More childhood's ruined and the cycle continues because some may learn to be a victim and some may learn to abuse...

[milee]

Sept 9, 2014 18:08:55 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Sept 9, 2014 16:00:17 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Part of the problem is we need to stop letting the victims decide if they want to press charges or not.

They can't do much when the victim refused to testify. 

Hm. I'd like to hear from one of the attorneys on the board. Even if she refuses to testify, there is obviously other evidence here. Like a video tape of what occurred. Would a prosecutor need the victim to testify in a case like this where there is other strong evidence?

[Angel!]

Sept 9, 2014 18:08:55 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Sept 9, 2014 16:00:17 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Part of the problem is we need to stop letting the victims decide if they want to press charges or not.

I am honestly worried for Rice's wife. If he was an asshole when he was on top of the world, things are only going to deteriorate from here.

They can't do much when the victim refuses to testify.  And I'm worried for their children.  More childhood's ruined and the cycle continues because some may learn to be a victim and some may learn to abuse...

Depends on the other evidence.  The DA would never drop these charges because they have a video.  They don't need her testimony or consent to proceed.

A punch is likely just a misdemeanor & my understanding is he took some sort of plea that requires counseling.  Not surprising on a first offense.

[souldoubt]

Honest question - why do people keep saying if she refuses to testify?  She hit him first so it seems like it goes both ways.  

[achelois]

He had much greater strength and is in top physical condition. 

I do not approve of her behavior--she was definitely wrong to do what she did, but I also believe that he was fully capable of protecting himself and subduing her without knocking her out and dragging her unconscious body around. He made no effort to subdue her by holding her off or pinning her hands to her side or anything. Just punched with his fist and knocked her out. His use of force was excessive for the situation. IMHO. 

They are both messed up. Violence is unacceptable. Man or woman. 

I have related the story of my first marriage. I was 18/he 27 and a police officer. He was physically abusive after we were married, escalating from verbal abuse and financial control over time. I got the worst beating of my life for accidentally breaking an egg yolk on what was supposed to have been an egg sunnyside up. 

When I was about six months pregnant at age 20, he pushed me down steps and shortly after that I was able to sneak away and leave him. 

There just are no words for that existence. 

[TheHaitian]

Sept 9, 2014 18:27:19 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

Honest question - why do people keep saying if she refuses to testify?  She hit him first so it seems like it goes both ways.  

We are talking about abuse in General where there is no camera to capture the moment.

DA's tend to not prosecute if the victim will not collaborate or testify.

[souldoubt]

Sept 9, 2014 18:30:57 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Sept 9, 2014 18:27:19 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

Honest question - why do people keep saying if she refuses to testify?  She hit him first so it seems like it goes both ways.  

We are talking about abuse in General where there is no camera to capture the moment.

DA's tend to not prosecute if the victim will not collaborate or testify.

Multiple people have mentioned 'her' refusing to testify which was the case with all of this.  Someone else mentioned they can prosecute without the victim testifying but in the case of Rice the deal and agreement wasn't unusual for a first offense.   

[Angel!]

Freakonomics did a podcast on the issue of not letting DV victims drop charges:

freakonomics.com/2012/02/02/save-me-from-myself-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/comment-page-3/

It is pretty interesting & overall pretty smart solution.  It keeps women out of the situation where the abuser can convince them into dropping charges.  But, also helps to protect them.  Haven't listened to it in a while.  IIRC, it didn't have the overall effect of lowering DV abuse like they expected.  But, did have the surprising effect of lowering women killing their abusers later.  They assume that it keeps women from feeling so trapped that they literally feel the only way to truly protect themselves is to kill the guy. 

It appears NJ is indeed one of the states that files charges without the victim, basically it is the state (or county) vs the abuser in the charges.  I thought there were states that still did not do this, but can't find anything in google. 

[Angel!]

Sept 9, 2014 18:27:19 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

Honest question - why do people keep saying if she refuses to testify?  She hit him first so it seems like it goes both ways.  

His response was over the top for her behavior.  He could have subdued her without a knock-out punch.  That is why he got charged.

[Angel!]

Sept 9, 2014 18:30:57 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Sept 9, 2014 18:27:19 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

Honest question - why do people keep saying if she refuses to testify?  She hit him first so it seems like it goes both ways.  

We are talking about abuse in General where there is no camera to capture the moment.

DA's tend to not prosecute if the victim will not collaborate or testify.

They will already have a statement, pictures, a 911 call, possibly witnesses.  If there is evidence of that sort (and there should be if there was an arrest), then they will proceed.

Most of the time guys will just plead out anyway.  If they have to actually take it to trial, the DA may drop charges.  Maybe swamp knows better, but I doubt most cases get to trial.  My ex was looking at 6 charges (I think).  They offered to drop 5 of them, gave him a deal that required no jail time if he did so much counseling & classes.  Plus, no one was bailing him out so he was looking at sitting in jail for months while awaiting a trial, so a lot of pros to taking the deal at that point. 

[souldoubt]

A lot of people's response to getting hit is to hit back whether it's right or not.  In his case if he didn't knock her out then there's no charge since it was tit for tat?  I'm really not defending him at all there's just a huge double standard when it comes to domestic abuse and the burden of proof seems to usually be on the male.  I understand why since I'm guessing a very high percentage of the aggressors in cases are male but it sucks for the poor guy who subdues a woman who is hitting him when she cries abuse and he ends up in jail.      

[swamp]

Sept 9, 2014 18:11:35 GMT -5 milee said:

Sept 9, 2014 18:08:55 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

They can't do much when the victim refused to testify. 

Hm. I'd like to hear from one of the attorneys on the board. Even if she refuses to testify, there is obviously other evidence here. Like a video tape of what occurred. Would a prosecutor need the victim to testify in a case like this where there is other strong evidence?

You can prosecute when the victim refuses if the is other evidence like medical records, 911 calls, his statement, amd or a video. 

ETA:  murder is always prosecuted without a victim statement. 

[swamp]

Sept 9, 2014 18:39:46 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Sept 9, 2014 18:30:57 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

We are talking about abuse in General where there is no camera to capture the moment.

DA's tend to not prosecute if the victim will not collaborate or testify.

They will already have a statement, pictures, a 911 call, possibly witnesses.  If there is evidence of that sort (and there should be if there was an arrest), then they will proceed.

Most of the time guys will just plead out anyway.  If they have to actually take it to trial, the DA may drop charges.  Maybe swamp knows better, but I doubt most cases get to trial.  My ex was looking at 6 charges (I think).  They offered to drop 5 of them, gave him a deal that required no jail time if he did so much counseling & classes.  Plus, no one was bailing him out so he was looking at sitting in jail for months while awaiting a trial, so a lot of pros to taking the deal at that point. 

98% of cases pleas out.  There aren't resources to take everything to trial. 

[achelois]

Sept 9, 2014 18:41:55 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

A lot of people's response to getting hit is to hit back whether it's right or not.  In his case if he didn't knock her out then there's no charge since it was tit for tat?  I'm really not defending him at all there's just a huge double standard when it comes to domestic abuse and the burden of proof seems to usually be on the male.  I understand why since I'm guessing a very high percentage of the aggressors in cases are male but it sucks for the poor guy who subdues a woman who is hitting him when she cries abuse and he ends up in jail.      

Men are usually capable of inflicting much greater physical damage. If one is defending oneself, there is an obligation to use only sufficient force to defend, especially if the person is not a real danger.  

It is extremely unlikely that she could have damaged him severely in this situation or if he had pinned her arms to her sides that she could have gotten out of a hold. He is strong. 

He did more than subdue her. He actually made no attempt to subdue her at all but proceded immediately to knock her out when lesser measures would have worked. 

In this situation, do you think he would have been justified to cut to the chase and kill her?  

That would have stopped her, also. 


Please note that I consider her behavior completely unacceptable and that I do give him credit for initially moving to the other side of the elevator. 

[billisonboard]

And she could have stayed on her side of the elevator when he physically retreated away from her.

[achelois]

Sept 9, 2014 19:00:06 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

And she could have stayed on her side of the elevator when he physically retreated away from her.

Yes. She behaved abominably. I do not fault him for being upset or angry with her, but only for excessive force. I would agree with him if he had restrained her so that she could not hit or kick him, or at least attempted that and only proceeded to higher level of force if that was ineffective. But I think he could have restrained her and further use of force would have proved unnecessary. 

[Deleted]

billisonboard why don't you start a thread about female on male abuse. It is different than this situation. The men are considered wimps and are embarrassed to report it. The nature of it is different than male on female abuse.

[Peace Of Mind]

As I said on page one.  My mom claimed she cracked her head on the freezer.  It was a lie and years later she admitted it to me after he was long gone but she would never have testified.  We tried to get her to file.  Even a neighbor came to the hospital and along with us tried to get her to admit the truth.  Even if there were cameras  she would have hid them or destroyed them to save "the love her life" from getting into legal trouble or she'd say she was drunk and fell or whatever.  And she was on something.  Pills? and she was an alcoholic. 

Listen, I lived it most of my life and I had front row seats.  Not all cases are the same.  Not all abusive people try to get your friends and family out of the victim's lives, not all victims are alone or friendless, nor are they always innocent or sober.  Not all are "worn down" or don't have a clue that it's happening because sometimes the guy is actually a nice guy who never did anything like that before the 2 toxics hooked up together and made the perfect storm. 

Those of you that got out are awesome!  You didn't let them win and you saved yourself and your children if you had any.  You all are mentally/emotionally sound and had the strength even if you allowed it to go on for a short time.    But not all women want out - believe me.  They have mental issues and they acquaint violence to love and the more violent the more they must love them.  If you aren't violent you don't love them so they'll poke and instigate until they show how much they love them.  It's insane but it exists.  And when mom was alone she did the same crap in our marriages to stir shit up and cause issues.  She tried everything with a couple of us that still tried to be there to help until we also ran screaming.  She couldn't get the excitement in her own life so she tried to cause it in ours.  My poor middle brother (they are a lot alike) would let her in and would believe her shit until I finally got through to him what she was doing.  The damage was already done and his marriage was already terribly damaged because of his own behavior but mom found the perfect fix for her high in helping destroy it. 


Out of the 5 remaining kids that lived with those people (the 2 older step sisters were long gone) I was the only one who tried to help.  I had 4 brothers and 2 were older.  They hid in their rooms.  I would run out and bang on neighbors doors because the phone was ripped out of the wall (I had called for help before from home) to get the cops to come.  I'd grab a baseball bat (I was 90 lbs. soaking wet) to try to get them calmed down or would jump in to physically get them apart.  The cops knew our address by heart.  When I moved out at 18 (I had to call the cops because they wouldn't let me leave) the cop that showed up said "Oh. I remember you! Finally getting away from the madness? Good for you!" And then he and another cop were laughing because I was coming out with pots and pans and a toaster oven, mixer, etc. and he said "You weren't planning this or anything were you?" with a big grin on his face. I said "Since I was 13!"  Mom would ask me what I wanted for Christmas and I'd say a toaster oven. She said "We have a toaster oven now and you can't have one in your room". I said "It's for my apt.". I'm a planner.

I won't discuss the fun I had when mom took an entire bottle of pills when she thought he was cheating on her and then getting the blame (along with a step brother) of why she tried to kill her self.  You see, it was because we were such awful children.  LMAO!  Luckily I had enough sense and confidence to laugh at his crazy drunken ass.  My step brother just drank and smoked himself to death (died at 53 of cancer).  They didn't have Baker Acting back then. But between the EMTs and I we finally got her to consent to go to the hospital.

I'm not perfect by any means but out of the 7 kids I'm the only one that didn't follow either path or  have substance abuse issues or marry creeps or crazy people or have more than 1 divorce.        I joke about being drunk all the time for shits and giggles because they were both drunks (and you have to laugh about it all because there certainly were nothing else to do with such teachings) but I'm not really drunk (just maybe now and then).  I just really can't spell or type.  

[thyme4change]

It never ever surprises me when a professional athlete beats someone up.  They are rewarded handsomely for a testosterone-induced, strong physical reaction all day, every day.  Football is the worst because the actual game is so violent.  I think if you spend all day smacking into people and crushing them (or getting crushed) you lose perspective on how normal non-physical life is.  

and (2) this looks like one f'd up relationship.  

[NastyWoman]

I can't see the video here at work, but if she really started this with hitting and spitting than why are there no charges against both parties?  Yes, this guy has a huge self control problem but then so does she.  This is not a healthy relationship for either one of them.

Saying that he should have stepped aside and not reacted is not realistic and besides would that mean that a woman beaten first just needs to step away? You don't start a physical fight with someone, especially not if s/he is stronger than you are.  You also don't poke a bear, grab a lion's meat from its maw, or bomb a very strong country hours before you declare war on it (the first two are self explanatory ask Japan about Pearl Harbor for the second).  Those things don't end well most of the time. 

DV needs to end in all its forms whether between partners (hetero sexual or homo sexual) and if aimed at or involving children