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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2014 21:11:21 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 30, 2014 23:06:53 GMT -5
it's likely that most Muslims don't even identify ISIS as "their own", much in the way Christians don't identify the abortion clinic bombers as their own.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 0:58:22 GMT -5
it's likely that most Muslims don't even identify ISIS as "their own", much in the way Christians don't identify the abortion clinic bombers as their own. I think that's the point. The question is (worded a bit differently): "Where are the Muslims that want to say 'they aren't us'?" We have the Christians that will proudly say "Those clinic bombers don't represent us" or the Christians that will say "Westboro Baptists don't represent all Christians"... so where are the Muslim equivalents?
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 31, 2014 6:49:56 GMT -5
You have to understand radical islam. They don't just 'convert' others at the point of the sword, they keep people who call themselves muslims in line at the point of the sword. Many moderate muslims- I'd say a majority- don't support ISIS, but they're afraid to speak out.
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 31, 2014 11:57:08 GMT -5
They're scared. I'm not Muslim and I'm scared of them. Imagine if I was really aware of what Muslims are capable of. They do know.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 12:04:08 GMT -5
They're scared. I'm not Muslim and I'm scared of them. Imagine if I was really aware of what Muslims are capable of. They do know. Muslims are capable of the same things anyone else is capable of, zib. This sort of horror isn't limited to Muslims.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 12:04:57 GMT -5
it's likely that most Muslims don't even identify ISIS as "their own", much in the way Christians don't identify the abortion clinic bombers as their own. I think that's the point. The question is (worded a bit differently): "Where are the Muslims that want to say 'they aren't us'?" all over the damned place. where is the audience for that statement?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 12:05:54 GMT -5
You have to understand radical islam. They don't just 'convert' others at the point of the sword, they keep people who call themselves muslims in line at the point of the sword. Many moderate muslims- I'd say a majority- don't support ISIS, but they're afraid to speak out. you'd say? how about 99% don't support them. that is probably pretty close. edit: and again, i don't think it has jack to do with fear. are Christians afraid to speak out against abortion clinic bombers? no. they RIGHTLY consider it a law enforcement matter, not a matter for public protest. in other words, it has as little to do with your average Christian as ISIS has to do with your average Muslim.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 12:12:47 GMT -5
i think the framing of this issue is totally wrong.
if we are going to treat terrorism as an abstract thing (rightly), rather than a religious movement, then the framers of this question need to ask themselves how that question works when addressed to other religions.
the guy who suggested that more Muslims should protest against ISIS should ask himself why he has not protested against abortion clinic bombers, unless, in fact, he has. the answer to that question is the same as why most Muslims don't protest against ISIS.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 12:16:58 GMT -5
You have to understand radical islam. They don't just 'convert' others at the point of the sword, they keep people who call themselves muslims in line at the point of the sword. Many moderate muslims- I'd say a majority- don't support ISIS, but they're afraid to speak out. you'd say? how about 99% don't support them. that is probably pretty close. edit: and again, i don't think it has jack to do with fear. are Christians afraid to speak out against abortion clinic bombers? no. they RIGHTLY consider it a law enforcement matter, not a matter for public protest. in other words, it has as little to do with your average Christian as ISIS has to do with your average Muslim. You disagree with this paragraph from the author then? The common refrain is: “That’s not Islam.” Of course it isn’t. Muslims know that, but we need to understand that others do not. And here’s the problem: To much of the world, the Islamic State, Nigeria’s Boko Haram and other such groups do represent the Muslim community. Today, say the word “Islam” and few think of the glories of our history and culture. Rather, they picture masked men with knives. And as long as our condemnations remain tepid, we give the impression that we accept the crimes of murderers whose savvy YouTube productions reach far and wide. Like it or not, the Islamic State is winning the public relations war. eta: she is a woman btw and a Muslim not a Christian.
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Post by Shooby on Aug 31, 2014 12:20:21 GMT -5
Yeah, "moderate" islam. Like any woman would want to live in Saudi Arabia where you can't even freaking drive a car. Uh huh. This is the religion of BRUTALIZING women and children.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 13:01:52 GMT -5
Yeah, "moderate" islam. Like any woman would want to live in Saudi Arabia where you can't even freaking drive a car. Uh huh. This is the religion of BRUTALIZING women and children. I lived in Saudi Arabia for over 10 years and quite enjoyed it. Not all Islamic women even want to drive cars. Just because you do doesn't mean everyone does. Your last sentence is nothing more than a show of ignorance, so I won't address it.
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Post by Shooby on Aug 31, 2014 13:24:27 GMT -5
You just did. But, I am sure there are some who would LOVE to drive a car as well. So, yeah.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 13:26:59 GMT -5
You just did. But, I am sure there are some who would LOVE to drive a car as well. So, yeah. Yes, there are some who would like to drive cars. They have protested several times by actually driving cars, and were backed by their husbands while doing so. Things are not always as the western press claim them to be. The Bedouin women drive their water trucks regularly.
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Post by Shooby on Aug 31, 2014 13:29:13 GMT -5
Oh , well if I can drive a water truck then what else could I ever want as a woman?
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Post by Shooby on Aug 31, 2014 13:31:55 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 15:15:52 GMT -5
Well it certainly seemed to be a major factor in this sad story I agree. I'm not sure it is what prevents the moderates from speaking out against ISIS though. By moderates I mean those that practice without violence .
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 31, 2014 15:29:15 GMT -5
Bingo! They don't need to speak out. Anyone who's read the koran knows that what ISIS is doing has no basis whatsoever in that book. Same way nobody actually considers the westboro baptists as true christians, or representatives of that belief system. There's no need to speak out against crazy ass fringe elements. Their actions betray the lie for them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 15:33:11 GMT -5
But many Christian people spoke out against the Westboro Baptists whether they considered them true Christians or not.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 31, 2014 15:46:20 GMT -5
Sure, but we don't make it a national priority to completely shut them down either. We dismiss them as the loony dumbasses they are and move on. ISIS is a little different, obviously, but I'm not sure what people are expecting the moderate muslims to do exactly? Shoulder a rifle and head to Iraq to fight them? I don't see any christians here do that when fringe loony christian groups bomb abortion clinics, murder abortion doctors, or bomb federal buildings.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 20:28:08 GMT -5
Yeah, "moderate" islam. Like any woman would want to live in Saudi Arabia where you can't even freaking drive a car. Uh huh. This is the religion of BRUTALIZING women and children. what brutality against women do you speak of? note to the rest of you: i am not defending anything. i am asking a question.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 20:29:13 GMT -5
Oh , well if I can drive a water truck then what else could I ever want as a woman? proper Birth Control. don't work @ Hobby Lobby, i guess?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 20:31:30 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 20:32:23 GMT -5
Bingo! They don't need to speak out. Anyone who's read the koran knows that what ISIS is doing has no basis whatsoever in that book. Same way nobody actually considers the westboro baptists as true christians, or representatives of that belief system. There's no need to speak out against crazy ass fringe elements. Their actions betray the lie for them. well, at least one person gets it. thanks, Shaun.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 20:34:55 GMT -5
Oh , well if I can drive a water truck then what else could I ever want as a woman? You're not one of the women we're talking about, are you? They don't really give a hoot what you want.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 20:35:27 GMT -5
But many Christian people spoke out against the Westboro Baptists whether they considered them true Christians or not. and many Muslim people speak out against ISIS. the fact that nobody reports on it is what we should be talking about it. the fact that there is no national dialog about moderate Islam, about the changes taking place in Iran and Indonesia. people would love to hear about how democratic and non-theocratic these places are. did you know that there are more transgender people per capita in Iran than anywhere else in the world? does that sound like something FOX would report? hell, it doesn't even sound like something the NY Times would report. nobody in the US would. because it betrays the image of the hooded terrorist that drives everything in popular culture for us right now. the same forces that keeps moderates quiet here. sure, they are scared. but they are not scared of ISIS. they are scared of USUS. edit: i think that it is totally offensive that rather than talking about moderate Islam, the media spends their moments talking about "why are MUSLIMS not talking about this". physician, heal thyself. the MEDIA has failed to do it's job. don't blame Islam, Washington Post. blame your G-dd(*mned selves.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 20:36:54 GMT -5
Muslims do speak out against this sort of nastiness. How many Muslims do you know? Do you read the news sites from the Middle East? Have you visited these countries and talked to the people? No? Yeah, I didn't think so.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 20:38:50 GMT -5
Muslims do speak out against this sort of nastiness. How many Muslims do you know? Do you read the news sites from the Middle East? Have you visited these countries and talked to the people? No? Yeah, I didn't think so. i think everyone in the US should spend one hour a week watching AlJezeera. they are way more honest about what is going on out there than we are. WAY MORE.
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 31, 2014 20:46:12 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 20:47:32 GMT -5
Muslims do speak out against this sort of nastiness. How many Muslims do you know? Do you read the news sites from the Middle East? Have you visited these countries and talked to the people? No? Yeah, I didn't think so. i think everyone in the US should spend one hour a week watching AlJezeera. they are way more honest about what is going on out there than we are. WAY MORE. Al Jazeera is excellent, IMO. Good reporters doing darned good work! Those who never poke their noses outside their own little worlds are led by the nose to ignorance of what's going on in the world. Sadly, some seem quite happy to stay that way.
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