Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 31, 2014 20:49:42 GMT -5
Muslims do speak out against this sort of nastiness. How many Muslims do you know? Do you read the news sites from the Middle East? Have you visited these countries and talked to the people? No? Yeah, I didn't think so. I started to post the exact same thing 5 hours ago but figured it would fall on deaf ears. I know that I have no idea what is said on the streets of Indonesia or Morocco and doubt many here do either.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 20:52:09 GMT -5
I still email with friends from Saudi and Indonesia (one from Iran, but I haven't heard from him in a few months), and with members of the expatriate community who are out and about in the world. There's a big, ol' world out there folks and there are things going on in it you don't know beans about.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 20:52:34 GMT -5
i think everyone in the US should spend one hour a week watching AlJezeera. they are way more honest about what is going on out there than we are. WAY MORE. Al Jazeera is excellent, IMO. Good reporters doing darned good work! Those who never poke their noses outside their own little worlds are led by the nose to ignorance of what's going on in the world. Sadly, some seem quite happy to stay that way. there is a strong anti-Muslim media bias in the US. there are a lot of reasons for it. most are rational, in the sense that our foreign policy is rational, and terrorism is rational. in short: if there are good things happening in Islam, this is the last country on Earth you will hear about it.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 20:54:13 GMT -5
I still email with friends from Saudi and Indonesia (one from Iran, but I haven't heard from him in a few months), and with members of the expatriate community who are out and about in the world. There's a big, ol' world out there folks and there are things going on in it you don't know beans about. how about this for an idea: if there are no protests in the Muslim community in the US, why don't y'all stop complaining and ORGANIZE ONE? you would get to know your Muslim neighbors, and fix your problem in one fell swoop. good luck getting the media to cover it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 21:06:19 GMT -5
For the record, when I posted the re-worded question earlier in the thread... I wasn't asking it myself. I was just paraphrasing.
I know they are out there... if one knows where to look OR if one doesn't avoid looking.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Aug 31, 2014 21:12:43 GMT -5
I lived in Saudi Arabia with DH for a year when he worked as an expat there and in Kuwait in the oil industry.
Shooby, your post shows you don't know about life in Saudi Arabia. There are other Islamic countries far more restrictive than SA - such as Iraq.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 21:54:13 GMT -5
Where in Saudi did you live, SL? I didn't know you'd been there!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 22:25:33 GMT -5
Muslims do speak out against this sort of nastiness. How many Muslims do you know? Do you read the news sites from the Middle East? Have you visited these countries and talked to the people? No? Yeah, I didn't think so. Well that is actually one of the points the author speaks of in the article.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 22:28:42 GMT -5
I still email with friends from Saudi and Indonesia (one from Iran, but I haven't heard from him in a few months), and with members of the expatriate community who are out and about in the world. There's a big, ol' world out there folks and there are things going on in it you don't know beans about. how about this for an idea: if there are no protests in the Muslim community in the US, why don't y'all stop complaining and ORGANIZE ONE? you would get to know your Muslim neighbors, and fix your problem in one fell swoop. good luck getting the media to cover it. Who is complaining besides the author ? Did you even read it?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 22:34:12 GMT -5
how about this for an idea: if there are no protests in the Muslim community in the US, why don't y'all stop complaining and ORGANIZE ONE? you would get to know your Muslim neighbors, and fix your problem in one fell swoop. good luck getting the media to cover it. Who is complaining besides the author ? Did you even read it?
of course i read it. like i say, i read everything that is posted here. what i found infuriating about it is the moral cowardace of the piece from a news standpoint. WaPo is basically feeding into the idea that US Muslims, who remain silent in the face of ISIS, are tacitly expressing support for it. that is not only totally untrue, but it has this added affect: it absolves WaPo from any responsibility for their contribution to the fact that they are not polling Muslims, asking them anything, or surveying actual dissent. instead, they are doing the moral equivalent of focusing on small problems rather than large successes. very common in the media. very annoying.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 22:35:29 GMT -5
Everything?
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Aug 31, 2014 22:38:19 GMT -5
Where in Saudi did you live, SL? I didn't know you'd been there! The company he worked for had a condo type complex situated in Dammam. We had all the conveniences and comforts as here - and lived not much differently.
If we were out visiting marketplaces, or touring around when he wasn't working, we did dress accordingly - I kept my head/hair covered, etc.
And we were close enough to Cairo that we were able to make some side trips there on his time off. Brought home some amazing large pieces of papyrus art that we had framed once home - and gold jewelry was inexpensive too.
I enjoyed the cultural education I got there - it's a completely different world..
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 22:40:01 GMT -5
Everything? grumble. fine. if i don't read, i tell you precisely why in my VERY FIRST POST. and if i don't read, that is the only type of comment you will get out of me about the "article in question". WaPo is generally a good paper. but this is an appalling article, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 22:41:20 GMT -5
Food for thought. I don't find it appalling.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 22:43:28 GMT -5
note: there might be another reason most Muslims don't protest ISIS, as well.
in this war, there will be a lot of collateral damages. whether those collateral damages exceed the damage ISIS is doing remains to be seen. in short, there is no winning if you are a Muslim. if you condemn ISIS, you excuse the bombing, which in turn kills more Muslims. lose-lose.
incidentally: this same question was asked about why American Muslims didn't celebrate the Iraq invasion. there were several reasons. first, watching as other Muslims got slaughtered by their own government probably wasn't something they thought cheer-worthy. but also, like most Iraqi's, the idea that they needed our help in the first place was kind of offputting to most independent minded people, not excluding Muslims.
a similar dynamic exists over ISIS, i am sure.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 22:44:31 GMT -5
Food for thought. I don't find it appalling. most people don't. it repeats favored truths, after all: everything is their fault. nothing is ours.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 22:47:36 GMT -5
as she said: it is not hard to organize a march- so what is her excuse? after all, she is well spoken. she is a concerned Muslim. moderate. why is she spending her time typing away in some sweaty office. she could be out there raising hell on the streets of Paris, or London, or NY.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 23:09:28 GMT -5
Muslims do speak out against this sort of nastiness. How many Muslims do you know? Do you read the news sites from the Middle East? Have you visited these countries and talked to the people? No? Yeah, I didn't think so. Well that is actually one of the points the author speaks of in the article. My point here is: You can't read articles in western news sources and think that makes you knowledgeable about eastern and middle eastern cultures. It doesn't work that way. I've seen too many people condemning Islam without knowing anything about it other than what they've read from the western media. It's ludicrous, just as it's ludicrous to say the moderate Muslims don't speak out when you don't know any, don't read anything other than western media, and have never even been to the middle east.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 23:17:38 GMT -5
Where in Saudi did you live, SL? I didn't know you'd been there! The company he worked for had a condo type complex situated in Dammam. We had all the conveniences and comforts as here - and lived not much differently.
If we were out visiting marketplaces, or touring around when he wasn't working, we did dress accordingly - I kept my head/hair covered, etc.
And we were close enough to Cairo that we were able to make some side trips there on his time off. Brought home some amazing large pieces of papyrus art that we had framed once home - and gold jewelry was inexpensive too.
I enjoyed the cultural education I got there - it's a completely different world.. We lived in Dhahran, on the Aramco compound. I've been to Dammam many times. It was much more restrictive as to dress than Al Khobar, which was Dhahran's neighboring town, but we went there fairly often for bargains. Al Khobar was more expensive since they had all of Dhahran as a captive audience. Gold was dirt cheap, as were precious stones if you knew the right people. One of my dear friends was a jeweler, so most of my jewelry is self-designed and hand-made of 18 Karat gold. Also, had a friend who dealt in rugs, so the entire family has more rugs than they know what to do with, several of which are antiques and quite valuable. If it hadn't been for my friend, I'd have gotten soaked good buying them! I thoroughly enjoyed my years there and the friends we made. It really is a different world, but I didn't find it to be a terrible world in which to live. You had some adjusting to do, but I'm one to get out and about and was lucky enough to be invited into the homes of those I met. Gave me a real opportunity to learn and to share. Good times!
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 23:19:58 GMT -5
as she said: it is not hard to organize a march- so what is her excuse? after all, she is well spoken. she is a concerned Muslim. moderate. why is she spending her time typing away in some sweaty office. she could be out there raising hell on the streets of Paris, or London, or NY. Honestly, I sometimes laugh at some of the things I hear from the "Middle East experts" babbling away on the TV stations. Hubs and I used to sit and laugh at some of the stuff they came up with!
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 23:26:20 GMT -5
Well that is actually one of the points the author speaks of in the article. My point here is: You can't read articles in western news sources and think that makes you knowledgeable about eastern and middle eastern cultures. It doesn't work that way. I've seen too many people condemning Islam without knowing anything about it other than what they've read from the western media. It's ludicrous, just as it's ludicrous to say the moderate Muslims don't speak out when you don't know any, don't read anything other than western media, and have never even been to the middle east. here is another interesting factoid. Yasmine Bahrani is an associate professor, which is the lowest rank other than adjunct, at the American university in Dubai. i don't know much about that institution, other than the fact that it was put together in 1991 during the Iraq War to make an American alternative to the typical educational models in the middle east. i also know that YB spent some time in Baghdad, as well as Toronto, ON, where she majored in Psycology. one other factoid: i can't find a single other thing she has ever written, but this article has appeared internationally. not that she needs any education in Journalism to write an opinion piece. i have written them, and i have none. her opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. i just think her background is unusual enough to mention. what tipped me off is that she doesn't have a "page" at WaPo, like most REPORTERS would.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 23:28:31 GMT -5
The company he worked for had a condo type complex situated in Dammam. We had all the conveniences and comforts as here - and lived not much differently.
If we were out visiting marketplaces, or touring around when he wasn't working, we did dress accordingly - I kept my head/hair covered, etc.
And we were close enough to Cairo that we were able to make some side trips there on his time off. Brought home some amazing large pieces of papyrus art that we had framed once home - and gold jewelry was inexpensive too.
I enjoyed the cultural education I got there - it's a completely different world.. We lived in Dhahran, on the Aramco compound. we get their magazine. they have great photographers.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 23:35:30 GMT -5
My point here is: You can't read articles in western news sources and think that makes you knowledgeable about eastern and middle eastern cultures. It doesn't work that way. I've seen too many people condemning Islam without knowing anything about it other than what they've read from the western media. It's ludicrous, just as it's ludicrous to say the moderate Muslims don't speak out when you don't know any, don't read anything other than western media, and have never even been to the middle east. here is another interesting factoid. Yasmine Bahrani is an associate professor, which is the lowest rank other than adjunct, at the American university in Dubai. i don't know much about that institution, other than the fact that it was put together in 1991 during the Iraq War to make an American alternative to the typical educational models in the middle east. i also know that YB spent some time in Baghdad, as well as Toronto, ON, where she majored in Psycology. one other factoid: i can't find a single other thing she has ever written, but this article has appeared internationally. not that she needs any education in Journalism to write an opinion piece. i have written them, and i have none. her opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. i just think her background is unusual enough to mention. what tipped me off is that she doesn't have a "page" at WaPo, like most REPORTERS would. Anybody, as you say, can write an opinion piece. I've seen some doozies! What irks me is the proliferation of this kind of article in the western press while one is hard put to find any positive viewpoints in that same press on this subject.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 31, 2014 23:38:17 GMT -5
We lived in Dhahran, on the Aramco compound. we get their magazine. they have great photographers. They can afford them! They've got a pretty darned capable staff from all over the world. Most are "old China hands" and have spent a good deal of time as expatriates. Oddly enough, there actually are really interesting things to photograph in Saudi. It's a desert, but there are some variances in topography and flora/fauna. Amazing place, really. You haven't seen a camel until you've seen one silhouetted against the horizon in it's native environment. They're really quite beautiful.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2014 23:41:12 GMT -5
here is another interesting factoid. Yasmine Bahrani is an associate professor, which is the lowest rank other than adjunct, at the American university in Dubai. i don't know much about that institution, other than the fact that it was put together in 1991 during the Iraq War to make an American alternative to the typical educational models in the middle east. i also know that YB spent some time in Baghdad, as well as Toronto, ON, where she majored in Psycology. one other factoid: i can't find a single other thing she has ever written, but this article has appeared internationally. not that she needs any education in Journalism to write an opinion piece. i have written them, and i have none. her opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. i just think her background is unusual enough to mention. what tipped me off is that she doesn't have a "page" at WaPo, like most REPORTERS would. Anybody, as you say, can write an opinion piece. I've seen some doozies! What irks me is the proliferation of this kind of article in the western press while one is hard put to find any positive viewpoints in that same press on this subject. and this is exactly what i was trying to say. if Ms Bahrani had INSTEAD said "many Muslims are opposed to ISIS and other radical elements of Islam, but they have no voice in Western media. i would assume that it does not play into the narrative that Muslims: that Muslims are somehow different than other peoples. that they have different desires, goals, dreams and lives than their Western counterparts. but that is simply not true." but this is not what she is saying. instead, she is saying that Muslims are motivated out of "fear" to march against Israel, which is something that most WESTERNERS would say, but has little basis in fact, from what i can tell. the fact that she is an educated Muslim woman is a good line of defense. but it might be worth considering whether her voice is really enlightened or not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 0:47:25 GMT -5
Well that is actually one of the points the author speaks of in the article. My point here is: You can't read articles in western news sources and think that makes you knowledgeable about eastern and middle eastern cultures. It doesn't work that way. I've seen too many people condemning Islam without knowing anything about it other than what they've read from the western media. It's ludicrous, just as it's ludicrous to say the moderate Muslims don't speak out when you don't know any, don't read anything other than western media, and have never even been to the middle east. Do me a favor mmhmm, Please don't presume that I presume to be knowledgeable about eastern and middle eastern cultures. I'm not nor have I ever pretended to be. You have every right to not agree with this woman's position on this issue . Again her position on this issue. I believe she probably knows some moderate muslims as she is one , I believe she probably reads other than western media and I believe she is in the middle east. One of her main points echoes exactly what you said , how muslims are portrayed in the western media. But I guess you didn't see any of those parts. You just decided that I thought I was a big mid eastern know it all because I thought her opinion was worth posting. Thanks
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 1, 2014 0:49:58 GMT -5
My point here is: You can't read articles in western news sources and think that makes you knowledgeable about eastern and middle eastern cultures. It doesn't work that way. I've seen too many people condemning Islam without knowing anything about it other than what they've read from the western media. It's ludicrous, just as it's ludicrous to say the moderate Muslims don't speak out when you don't know any, don't read anything other than western media, and have never even been to the middle east. Do me a favor mmhmm, Please don't presume that I presume to be knowledgeable about eastern and middle eastern cultures. I'm not nor have I ever pretended to be. You have every right to not agree with this woman's position on this issue . Again her position on this issue. I believe she probably knows some moderate muslims as she is one , I believe she probably reads other than western media and I believe she is in the middle east. One of her main points echoes exactly what you said , how muslims are portrayed in the western media. But I guess you didn't see any of those parts. You just decided that I thought I was a big mid eastern know it all because I thought her opinion was worth posting. Thanks
I don't recall mentioning your name, xmascookie. Mine was a generic "you". If I am speaking to you, I will direct my post to you by using your name.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 2:19:13 GMT -5
Do me a favor mmhmm, Please don't presume that I presume to be knowledgeable about eastern and middle eastern cultures. I'm not nor have I ever pretended to be. You have every right to not agree with this woman's position on this issue . Again her position on this issue. I believe she probably knows some moderate muslims as she is one , I believe she probably reads other than western media and I believe she is in the middle east. One of her main points echoes exactly what you said , how muslims are portrayed in the western media. But I guess you didn't see any of those parts. You just decided that I thought I was a big mid eastern know it all because I thought her opinion was worth posting. Thanks
I don't recall mentioning your name, xmascookie. Mine was a generic "you". If I am speaking to you, I will direct my post to you by using your name. I'll remember that. Who is the generic you then? I have not seen anyone in this thread claim they are knowledgeable about the middle east except for this author. I thought that is what we were talking about. So your point is you can't judge Islam by the western media portrayal of it, which was also one of her points?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 2:29:26 GMT -5
Anybody, as you say, can write an opinion piece. I've seen some doozies! What irks me is the proliferation of this kind of article in the western press while one is hard put to find any positive viewpoints in that same press on this subject. and this is exactly what i was trying to say. if Ms Bahrani had INSTEAD said "many Muslims are opposed to ISIS and other radical elements of Islam, but they have no voice in Western media. i would assume that it does not play into the narrative that Muslims: that Muslims are somehow different than other peoples. that they have different desires, goals, dreams and lives than their Western counterparts. but that is simply not true." but this is not what she is saying. instead, she is saying that Muslims are motivated out of "fear" to march against Israel, which is something that most WESTERNERS would say, but has little basis in fact, from what i can tell. the fact that she is an educated Muslim woman is a good line of defense. but it might be worth considering whether her voice is really enlightened or not. No she didn't say fear. She said deeper hate. "Is it possible that the marches in support of Palestinians are well-attended because Muslims hate Israel more than we hate criminal gangs who have hijacked the narrative of our religion?"
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 1, 2014 4:15:03 GMT -5
I don't recall mentioning your name, xmascookie. Mine was a generic "you". If I am speaking to you, I will direct my post to you by using your name. I'll remember that. Who is the generic you then? I have not seen anyone in this thread claim they are knowledgeable about the middle east except for this author. I thought that is what we were talking about. So your point is you can't judge Islam by the western media portrayal of it, which was also one of her points?
The western media is included in my generic "you", xmascookie, as are various personal blogs, and at least one poster in this very thread, who just absolutely knows Muslims are violent, horrible people who brutalize women! How said poster obtained said knowledge is a mystery to me, but said poster claims it quite vociferously, wouldn't you say? I don't disagree with the author's claim that Islam cannot be judged by western media. I agree with that, for crying out loud. What I disagree with is expecting people from other cultures to behave as those from our culture behave, do the things we think they ought to do without having any knowledge of their culture whatsoever. This author's opinion piece does nothing to address that aspect. It leaves that aspect out entirely.
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