mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 1, 2014 4:17:17 GMT -5
and this is exactly what i was trying to say. if Ms Bahrani had INSTEAD said "many Muslims are opposed to ISIS and other radical elements of Islam, but they have no voice in Western media. i would assume that it does not play into the narrative that Muslims: that Muslims are somehow different than other peoples. that they have different desires, goals, dreams and lives than their Western counterparts. but that is simply not true." but this is not what she is saying. instead, she is saying that Muslims are motivated out of "fear" to march against Israel, which is something that most WESTERNERS would say, but has little basis in fact, from what i can tell. the fact that she is an educated Muslim woman is a good line of defense. but it might be worth considering whether her voice is really enlightened or not. No she didn't say fear. She said deeper hate. "Is it possible that the marches in support of Palestinians are well-attended because Muslims hate Israel more than we hate criminal gangs who have hijacked the narrative of our religion?"
News flash: Not all Muslims hate Israel. That's mostly government rhetoric. You don't hear it much amongst educated Muslims. The uneducated hate whomever they are told to hate.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Sept 1, 2014 5:48:39 GMT -5
Would you not say that to be a pilot takes some degree of education? The men that flew the planes into the world trade centers and pentagon were educated! That took quit a bit of intelligence. Isis has been educated by our own operatives to over throw Assad.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Sept 1, 2014 5:50:10 GMT -5
No such thing as a moderate Muslim . Your a believer or not.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 1, 2014 8:11:41 GMT -5
No such thing as a moderate Muslim . Your a believer or not. You couldn't be more wrong if you followed the directions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 10:58:35 GMT -5
No she didn't say fear. She said deeper hate. "Is it possible that the marches in support of Palestinians are well-attended because Muslims hate Israel more than we hate criminal gangs who have hijacked the narrative of our religion?"
News flash: Not all Muslims hate Israel. That's mostly government rhetoric. You don't hear it much amongst educated Muslims. The uneducated hate whomever they are told to hate. News flash: who said they all did?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2014 11:39:36 GMT -5
and this is exactly what i was trying to say. if Ms Bahrani had INSTEAD said "many Muslims are opposed to ISIS and other radical elements of Islam, but they have no voice in Western media. i would assume that it does not play into the narrative that Muslims: that Muslims are somehow different than other peoples. that they have different desires, goals, dreams and lives than their Western counterparts. but that is simply not true." but this is not what she is saying. instead, she is saying that Muslims are motivated out of "fear" to march against Israel, which is something that most WESTERNERS would say, but has little basis in fact, from what i can tell. the fact that she is an educated Muslim woman is a good line of defense. but it might be worth considering whether her voice is really enlightened or not. No she didn't say fear. She said deeper hate.
that's true. and far worse than fear.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2014 11:52:41 GMT -5
Would you not say that to be a pilot takes some degree of education?
they weren't pilots. they were PIT's. that doesn't take much education.
The men that flew the planes into the world trade centers and pentagon were educated!
most terrorists are educated. most are middle class.
That took quit a bit of intelligence. Isis has been educated by our own operatives to over throw Assad.
i don't know enough about ISIS to comment. but yes, the folks that orchestrated 911 were cunning and fearless. two words that are rarely associated with terrorism. we should start. now.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2014 11:53:30 GMT -5
No such thing as a moderate Muslim . Your a believer or not. there's no such thing as a moderate Christian. You're a believer, or not.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2014 11:54:58 GMT -5
I'll remember that. Who is the generic you then? I have not seen anyone in this thread claim they are knowledgeable about the middle east except for this author. I thought that is what we were talking about. So your point is you can't judge Islam by the western media portrayal of it, which was also one of her points?
The western media is included in my generic "you", xmascookie, as are various personal blogs, and at least one poster in this very thread, who just absolutely knows Muslims are violent, horrible people who brutalize women! How said poster obtained said knowledge is a mystery to me, but said poster claims it quite vociferously, wouldn't you say? I don't disagree with the author's claim that Islam cannot be judged by western media. I agree with that, for crying out loud. What I disagree with is expecting people from other cultures to behave as those from our culture behave, do the things we think they ought to do without having any knowledge of their culture whatsoever. This author's opinion piece does nothing to address that aspect. It leaves that aspect out entirely. it leaves a great deal out. like...facts?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 1, 2014 13:34:36 GMT -5
The western media is included in my generic "you", xmascookie, as are various personal blogs, and at least one poster in this very thread, who just absolutely knows Muslims are violent, horrible people who brutalize women! How said poster obtained said knowledge is a mystery to me, but said poster claims it quite vociferously, wouldn't you say? I don't disagree with the author's claim that Islam cannot be judged by western media. I agree with that, for crying out loud. What I disagree with is expecting people from other cultures to behave as those from our culture behave, do the things we think they ought to do without having any knowledge of their culture whatsoever. This author's opinion piece does nothing to address that aspect. It leaves that aspect out entirely. it leaves a great deal out. like...facts? That's the way I see it, as well, dj.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 15:45:50 GMT -5
The western media is included in my generic "you", xmascookie, as are various personal blogs, and at least one poster in this very thread, who just absolutely knows Muslims are violent, horrible people who brutalize women! How said poster obtained said knowledge is a mystery to me, but said poster claims it quite vociferously, wouldn't you say? I don't disagree with the author's claim that Islam cannot be judged by western media. I agree with that, for crying out loud. What I disagree with is expecting people from other cultures to behave as those from our culture behave, do the things we think they ought to do without having any knowledge of their culture whatsoever. This author's opinion piece does nothing to address that aspect. It leaves that aspect out entirely. it leaves a great deal out. like...facts? As you said yourself it's an opinion piece and you don't like them. Got it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2014 15:50:01 GMT -5
it leaves a great deal out. like...facts? As you said yourself it's an opinion piece and you don't like them. Got it.
i am not a big fan of opinion writing, for this reason. opinion is just as often uninformed as informed. and no, i am not leaving myself out, which is why i prefer to debate facts.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 1, 2014 15:50:56 GMT -5
it leaves a great deal out. like...facts? As you said yourself it's an opinion piece and you don't like them. Got it.
I don't necessarily dislike opinion pieces. I don't, however, consider them news and I don't consider them learning tools, per se. They're someone's opinion. That's all they are. We may agree in whole, in part, or not at all.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Sept 2, 2014 7:00:48 GMT -5
No such thing as a moderate Muslim . Your a believer or not. there's no such thing as a moderate Christian. You're a believer, or not. Yes and the Christians were fed to lions for believing in their faith Islamist are cutting off the heads of non believers . Maybe just a little difference. This is the 21st century.
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 2, 2014 7:34:53 GMT -5
there's no such thing as a moderate Christian. You're a believer, or not. Yes and the Christians were fed to lions for believing in their faith Islamist are cutting off the heads of non believers . Maybe just a little difference. This is the 21st century. And the Jews and Muslims said the same thing during the Spanish Inquisition 'Why ìs this happening-ìt's the 15th to the 19th century.' it has been going on for centuries. One religion after another.
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Post by workpublic on Sept 2, 2014 8:33:22 GMT -5
not all muslims are in ISIS but all ISIS members are muslim?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 2, 2014 9:25:57 GMT -5
Not all boys are Boy Scouts, but all Boy Scouts are boys. I really don't see how that ties in. Because some of a given demographic join something it doesn't follow that all members of that demographic (or, even most members) have joined.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 2, 2014 9:32:43 GMT -5
And not all Boy Scouts are "boy scouts".
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 2, 2014 9:38:08 GMT -5
Where ya going with this, Bills?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 2, 2014 9:46:39 GMT -5
Where ya going with this, Bills? One can be a self identifying member of a large organization without internalizing the core values normally associated with that organization.
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 2, 2014 9:49:07 GMT -5
Ah, I had hoped funny stuff.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 2, 2014 9:50:33 GMT -5
i think the framing of this issue is totally wrong. if we are going to treat terrorism as an abstract thing (rightly), rather than a religious movement, then the framers of this question need to ask themselves how that question works when addressed to other religions. the guy who suggested that more Muslims should protest against ISIS should ask himself why he has not protested against abortion clinic bombers, unless, in fact, he has. the answer to that question is the same as why most Muslims don't protest against ISIS. Terrorism is the tactic, it isn't the threat. Timothy McVeigh, the IRA, and the KKK used terrorism. When we say terrorism today, we are really diluting the conversation. The threat today is radical islam. Unlike Christianity, there has been no muslim reformation in the last 700 years. The goal then, is the goal today. Mulims differ on the form, the Sunnis differ from Shiites, and both have degrees of extremism, but they're all on the same page on the world-wide caliphate and imposing Sharia on the rest of the world. Where they believe they can pressure useful idiots in the west to achieve this aim democratically (at first), they will, but they all agree. Islam / Sharia must necessarily dominate the world. That's the aim. It has never changed. And whether moderate muslims are aware of this or not- the result will be a bloodbath. So, it is critically important that islam undergo reform which results in the rejection of violence everywhere as a mean of spreading their religion; and that the west wake up to the threat that radical islam represents.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 2, 2014 10:21:48 GMT -5
there's no such thing as a moderate Christian. You're a believer, or not. Yes and the Christians were fed to lions for believing in their faith Islamist are cutting off the heads of non believers . Maybe just a little difference. This is the 21st century. you missed my point entirely. congratulations.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 2, 2014 10:24:54 GMT -5
i think the framing of this issue is totally wrong. if we are going to treat terrorism as an abstract thing (rightly), rather than a religious movement, then the framers of this question need to ask themselves how that question works when addressed to other religions. the guy who suggested that more Muslims should protest against ISIS should ask himself why he has not protested against abortion clinic bombers, unless, in fact, he has. the answer to that question is the same as why most Muslims don't protest against ISIS. Terrorism is the tactic, it isn't the threat. Timothy McVeigh, the IRA, and the KKK used terrorism. When we say terrorism today, we are really diluting the conversation. The threat today is radical islam. threat to what?Unlike Christianity, there has been no muslim reformation in the last 700 years. The goal then, is the goal today. Mulims differ on the form, the Sunnis differ from Shiites, and both have degrees of extremism, but they're all on the same page on the world-wide caliphate and imposing Sharia on the rest of the world. Where they believe they can pressure useful idiots in the west to achieve this aim democratically (at first), they will, but they all agree. Islam / Sharia must necessarily dominate the world. That's the aim. It has never changed. And whether moderate muslims are aware of this or not- the result will be a bloodbath. So, it is critically important that islam undergo reform which results in the rejection of violence everywhere as a mean of spreading their religion; and that the west wake up to the threat that radical islam represents. let me just ask you a quick question or two, Paul. the answers will probably clear everything up for me; if this really is a Holy War, as you seem to believe, then why is the most populous Muslim nation on Earth a US Ally, with whom we have had close relations since the 70's? why would they have ANY relations with us? why would they not be AT WAR with us? and why has their resolve to remain an ally been unchanged since 911?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 2, 2014 10:26:33 GMT -5
Yes and the Christians were fed to lions for believing in their faith Islamist are cutting off the heads of non believers . Maybe just a little difference. This is the 21st century. And the Jews and Muslims said the same thing during the Spanish Inquisition 'Why ìs this happening-ìt's the 15th to the 19th century.' it has been going on for centuries. One religion after another. in the history of Western religion, the pattern is unmistakable. Darwin would probably call it evolutionary.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 2, 2014 10:29:08 GMT -5
Not all boys are Boy Scouts, but all Boy Scouts are boys. I really don't see how that ties in. Because some of a given demographic join something it doesn't follow that all members of that demographic (or, even most members) have joined. not all Buddhists are Tamil Tigers, but all Tamil Tigers are Buddhists. i don't know where the argument leads either- other than to ONE inexorable conclusion: religion does not INFORM terrorism. it only serves the concept of "otherness". so, anyone read the Pape book yet?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 2, 2014 10:31:26 GMT -5
Where ya going with this, Bills? One can be a self identifying member of a large organization without internalizing the core values normally associated with that organization. bingo.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 2, 2014 10:50:55 GMT -5
Terrorism is the tactic, it isn't the threat. Timothy McVeigh, the IRA, and the KKK used terrorism. When we say terrorism today, we are really diluting the conversation. The threat today is radical islam. threat to what?Unlike Christianity, there has been no muslim reformation in the last 700 years. The goal then, is the goal today. Mulims differ on the form, the Sunnis differ from Shiites, and both have degrees of extremism, but they're all on the same page on the world-wide caliphate and imposing Sharia on the rest of the world. Where they believe they can pressure useful idiots in the west to achieve this aim democratically (at first), they will, but they all agree. Islam / Sharia must necessarily dominate the world. That's the aim. It has never changed. And whether moderate muslims are aware of this or not- the result will be a bloodbath. So, it is critically important that islam undergo reform which results in the rejection of violence everywhere as a mean of spreading their religion; and that the west wake up to the threat that radical islam represents. let me just ask you a quick question or two, Paul. the answers will probably clear everything up for me; if this really is a Holy War, as you seem to believe, then why is the most populous Muslim nation on Earth a US Ally, with whom we have had close relations since the 70's? why would they have ANY relations with us? why would they not be AT WAR with us? and why has their resolve to remain an ally been unchanged since 911? We need oil. They need the money to fund Jihad. This is not theory, btw- I've actually he[ard it said directly from a Muslim cleric in person- his lips to my ears: "God gave us this oil, so we may use it to bring the world under sharia". They don't attack us directly, but through their oil-money funded madrases and radical mosques. The problem with the world-wide religious holy war we're in is that most of the west, and in particular America doesn't realize it is well underway. The ISIS, al-Qaeda, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah types aren't coming to America- they're here. There are formal in informal 'sleeper cells' in waiting to respond as ordered, or as opportunity permits. They're scattered throughout the United States- some are in the highest levels of government. Others are police, firefighters, military, airline pilots, gang members, cab drivers, computer programmers-- and they look as American / western as you and I. They are, like Mohammad Atta and crew, waiting to respond as terrorist cells against this nation. They aren't the KKK. They aren't just a 'few'. They are radical sects, 200 million strong, and they believe they have a command from God to kill infidels- especially Christians and Jews. Most people don't realize that there are deep seeded cultural differences between our western, Judeo-Christian way of life and even 'moderate muslims'. In an all-out holy war-- say after a nuclear attack on NYC, DC, Chicago, and LA plunges the country into years of darkness- there wouldn't be a functioning electronic anything anywhere for YEARS, we can't automatically trust or rely on the moderate muslims to do the right thing. Many moderate muslims are turned off by our liberal democratic politics, and permissive culture. It will be easy to sway them that it is their religious duty to oppose us. We are ‘infidels’ and there is nothing you can do to accommodate them. That’s what makes them so dangerous. And I do believe that moderate muslims need to fully assimilate, and one of the best ways they can do that is to speak out. How else are we going to know who to trust? Are we supposed to just assume in the middle of the mother of all terrorist attacks still to come- a nuclear strike, and/or EMP- that the 'moderate' muslims among us won't turn on us to save their own hides, or out of sympathy for them movement?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 2, 2014 10:52:58 GMT -5
One can be a self identifying member of a large organization without internalizing the core values normally associated with that organization. bingo. So, one could be a NAZI- believing that the Aryian - Germanic people are genetically superior to all other people, but not be for the extermination of all other people? And you would buy this bullshit from them when the chips are down?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 2, 2014 10:54:28 GMT -5
Not all boys are Boy Scouts, but all Boy Scouts are boys. I really don't see how that ties in. Because some of a given demographic join something it doesn't follow that all members of that demographic (or, even most members) have joined. not all Buddhists are Tamil Tigers, but all Tamil Tigers are Buddhists. i don't know where the argument leads either- other than to ONE inexorable conclusion: religion does not INFORM terrorism. it only serves the concept of "otherness". so, anyone read the Pape book yet? I've got it on order.
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