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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 21:15:48 GMT -5
And see - it still didn't make you human. Further proof that corporal punishment is ineffective and the province of people who are not intelligent enough to come up with more appropriate and effective methods of training. Corporal punishment (not abuse such as you were subjected to) isn't ineffective if started at a young age. If you let your kid get away with stuff their whole life before you decide you aren't going to take it anymore then decide to parent, you will have a problem. If you start young, you don't have to go there much if at all when they are older and likely are bigger than you. what age is the 'optimal' age to start corporal punishment? 8 months like Mid's relatives?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 14, 2014 21:17:15 GMT -5
If kids today are getting worse I blame lack/reduction of physical activity.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 21:18:27 GMT -5
I didn't say they did. You can discipline your child as you see fit as will I. I'm referring to the child in the OP. Obviously these parents have not been doing a very good job. Let me ask you this... You say you have never hit your child. Would (s)he even begin to think to spit in your face? Likely no. So whatever you are doing works for you. What I do works for me. I will never say I regret the way I have raised my kids. I would never expect you to regret how you raise yours. But our kid aren't spitting in our faces and then calling CPS because we are disciplining them. If they are, we're doing it wrong. ETA: This was in response to raeoflyte. I didn't quote so the post wouldn't be really long. Your first paragraph is not fair. You have no idea beyond the op what the parents have done or what the girl has been through. Sometimes you do everything right and it still goes to shit. My kids are little so I have no idea how they will turn out. I can tell that they like to mimic my behavior. That isn't always a pretty mirror to look into and makes me want to be my best for them. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards I don't think it's unfair. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. IMO, if you handle your business and do what you need to do, you won't have these kinds of problems. I have spanked my kids and don't apologize for it. Have they had their moments when I have wanted to drop them off in the country? Absolutely! Did they hit an age where I wondered what happened to my sweet baby and where did this child in front of me came from? 100% yes! Would my child ever think it was ok to spit at me, cuss at me, or physically assault me? Aw hell naw! So tell me how my first paragraph is unfair. Again, if you handle your business from the time they are little, you don't have these issues.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2014 21:21:39 GMT -5
...:::"Nobody is disagreeing with the idea that the situation needs correcting immediately. It does. The consequences should be extremely serious and tailored to be very effective for that kid.
But if you decide to start treating your kids like a pimp does, don't be surprised if that doesn't improve the situation or if it encourages them to get tougher, meaner and maybe decide to fit the role. You might "break" them, you might not. You might just be creating a more effective, hardened adversary. Especially if a "pimp hand" is the extent of your creativity in discipline technique.":::...
Its funny that we can be so in agreement over the situation needing correction, yet 180 degrees apart on terminology. Everyone should get to be non-PC once in a while.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Aug 14, 2014 21:22:36 GMT -5
Actually, I don't know any households any more that spank as a rule. A lot of kids these days just seem really coddled and spoiled, with extracurricular activities being treated with the utmost importance, such that everything revolves around them. But I digress...sorry.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 14, 2014 21:23:10 GMT -5
Actually, I don't know any households any more that spank as a rule. A lot of kids these days just seem really coddled and spoiled, with extracurricular activities being treated with the utmost importance, such that everything revolves around them. But I digress...sorry. Have you been spying on me??
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 21:23:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure the parents in the OP have been screwing up terribly. They have an unruly 13 year old who has been difficult since she was eight. That's a long time and it sounds like this is the first time it's escalated to violence. They could have been trying everything in the book up till now.
Sometimes, even the best parents in the world get bad apples that stay rotten no matter what they do. Doesn't happen often but it definitely happens.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 21:26:48 GMT -5
I hate the term "PC" with the fire of a thousand suns. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone excuse their jackass comments or beliefs by proudly proclaiming that they're "just not PC, sorry!"
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2014 21:28:34 GMT -5
...:::"A lot of kids these days just seem really coddled and spoiled, with extracurricular activities being treated with the utmost importance, such that everything revolves around them.":::...
This is another great point. Are kids overstimulated? Are they harried and rushed from thing to thing with no time to collect their thoughts and unwind? Or are they so spoiled that the second things stop being about them, they don't know how to process it?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 14, 2014 21:34:00 GMT -5
What if daughter is adopted and bio mom was on drugs forever altering/preventing the child from having empathy for others? What if daughter is being molested and is acting out for attention but too afraid to tell anyone what is happening? Daughter could be into drugs (hopefully not as young as 8 but my sister had a friend at 10 who loved doing angel dust).
These are the things I would be concerned about if my kid was behaving in a way that wasn't modeled at home with no response to talking, loss of privileges, consequences, etc.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 21:34:15 GMT -5
So I'm sitting here next to my oldest. I asked her "Just hypothetically speaking, if we were arguing and you decided to spit on me, what do you think would happen?" Her exact words were "It was nice to have lived this long".
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Aug 14, 2014 21:37:45 GMT -5
swasat - did the girls behavior change after the incident? Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards MOST definitely. I only got to know about it 2 days ago when friend called me and told me the story. As per her, the weekend was one in a long time when they didn't have way too much drama in the house. DD finished her basic tasks and kept to herself in her room. The time she was with the family, she was quiet but spoke respectfully and behaved cordially. They plan to give her some time to digest everything i.e not speak to her about the CPS incident. If things look more setlled in a couple of weeks, they plan to sit with her and talk. Friend's DH also plans to broach the subject of couselling, again, all depending on how the following weeks pan out. I truly think its a case of rotten apple. I know them very well, they really try hard. Their daughter is just such a nutjob. I 100% beleive she deserved what she got. Flame away......
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 14, 2014 21:38:10 GMT -5
So I'm sitting here next to my oldest. I asked her "Just hypothetically speaking, if we were arguing and you decided to spit on me, what do you think would happen?" Her exact words were "It was nice to have lived this long". Same here... I would never dare to do such a thing to my mother. I can count on one hand how many times she hit me growing up, but knowing it is a possibility and she wouldn't be afraid to do it have kept me in line. My mom was not my friend, not by BFF, she was my mother... I feared and respected her.
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drivingaround
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Post by drivingaround on Aug 14, 2014 21:42:32 GMT -5
The #1 reason I do not have nor will I ever have children is because I don't trust that the cycle of physical discipline I endured as a child would be broken. Physical discipline really messes with emotional processing and growth. Parents are supposed to love and protect their children then they cause them physical pain and so the kids are left not only believing it is a form of love but wondering what they did that is so bad to be warranted. Numerous psychological studies have been done on the impact of hand spanking, the wooden spoon, the belt and other methods. All what would be considered "non-abusive" forms of discipline yet studies show children develop emotional scars from this. In the end I'd likely spank my children and couldn't really guarantee it would stop there. Since I don't want either of those I opt not to have children. My brother had the same childhood and has no issues with how our parents disciplined us, he thought it was fair and deserved. I remind him that's because we were brainwashed to think the ends justified the means. He has three boys and spanked them when they were in the 2 - 4 range. Typical stuff, tantrum at a restaurant, throwing food on the floor, hitting or biting each other/the parents. Their tweens now and don't seem to fear him nor are they overly disrespectful. ETA, I meant fear as in cowering in abusive fear, not fear like they can get away with anything they want.
In regards to the OP, I don't see the slap being abuse. People, including children, need to learn there are cause and effect relationships. Similar to when siblings fight and one kid finally has enough and hits the other kid. Soon enough the instigator learns they can't hit the other one without being hit in return. I can't see the father sitting down at the table afterwards with a satisfied smile. Knowing how our human brains work he probably did what most of us do after fight or flight situations.... Rehashed it in his mind with "WTF just happened."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 21:44:31 GMT -5
Who were all these mythical perfect children of years past? Kids have been acting up forever. The difference is that these days we are the adults, back then we were the kids. Of course we thought we behaved well. The kids today think they do. And so day they will think the next generation are little hellions. It's the circle of life. Doesn't make it reality.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 21:46:05 GMT -5
So I'm sitting here next to my oldest. I asked her "Just hypothetically speaking, if we were arguing and you decided to spit on me, what do you think would happen?" Her exact words were "It was nice to have lived this long". Same here... I would never dare to do such a thing to my mother. I can count on one hand how many times she hit me growing up, but knowing it is a possibility and she wouldn't be afraid to do it have kept me in line. My mom was not my friend, not by BFF, she was my mother... I feared and respected her. Exactly! I can't count on all my fingers or toes how many times I got smacked as a kid. And you know what? As an adult I admit that I deserved every one of them. I do commiserate with the kids and their friends. Hell, a lot of them will tell you they love hanging out with me as much as they do my kids. But my kids know that they better not step too far out of line. We are as best friends as we can be while knowing I am their mother more than I am their friend. I have point blank told them that we can be friends when they are grown and on their own. Right now, I am their mother. And when they get a little froggy, I have told them "Remember you're talking to your mama, not your friend". It usually brings them right in line.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 21:47:09 GMT -5
I can't imagine spitting on my mom either, and she pretty much IS my best friend. I behaved for her when I was young because I respected and adored her and wanted to make her happy, not because I was remotely afraid of her.
I don't believe parents HAVE to be friends with their kids by any means but it's definitely possible to have the kind of relationship with a kid where they'd never dream of hurting you because they love you, not because they fear you.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 21:58:13 GMT -5
I am of the opinion that your child should love and respect you. They should know that they are protected. They should also fear you to a certain extent. A child should never have to worry about telling you that they bombed a test for fear of being beaten. But at the same time, they should know that in no way will disrespecting you be allowed. <br><br>While we're at it, let's just talk about the love that goes on in my house. I am a single mom to two teenage girls. We laugh and sing and have a lot of fun. They know that if anyone were to ever hurt them, they would have me to deal with. I may be small, but I can be dangerous when you even look at my kids sideways. They know that if there were ever anyone on this earth that would do anything in their power to make them happy, it's me. <br><br>So how is the fact that I won't take any stuff off of these same kids who I love and adore be wrong or ineffective?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 22:04:18 GMT -5
I didn't say it was wrong or ineffective. I think most kids do require a little of that healthy fear you're talking about, at least when they're little. I just know it's not always necessary, because I was never afraid of my mom but I would have walked through fire for her and the few times I hurt her feelings usually had ME in tears.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 22:05:17 GMT -5
swasat - did the girls behavior change after the incident? Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards MOST definitely. I only got to know about it 2 days ago when friend called me and told me the story. As per her, the weekend was one in a long time when they didn't have way too much drama in the house. DD finished her basic tasks and kept to herself in her room. The time she was with the family, she was quiet but spoke respectfully and behaved cordially. They plan to give her some time to digest everything i.e not speak to her about the CPS incident. If things look more setlled in a couple of weeks, they plan to sit with her and talk. Friend's DH also plans to broach the subject of couselling, again, all depending on how the following weeks pan out. I truly think its a case of rotten apple. I know them very well, they really try hard. Their daughter is just such a nutjob. I 100% beleive she deserved what she got. Flame away...... I also believe that she deserved it 100%. But why wait a couple of weeks to talk about it? Why not talk about it the next day when calmer heads prevail? A 13 yo doesn't need weeks to think about what happened. Granted, they can't talk about it right then and there because everyone is full of emotion. I hardly see how waiting a couple of weeks to see if she slips up again is in her best interest. When the stuff goes down, it's best to deal with it then. In this case "then" was a time of indifference. They should address it ASAP though.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 14, 2014 22:06:00 GMT -5
I haven't read this whole thread, but that doesn't seem to stop other people from jumping in so why not?
I am not anti-spanking. I never had to spank my own kids, but I did have a nephew who was a very willful child and into everything. I did have to spank him on occasion. His younger sister was an angel. When I got married, my new wife had a daughter from before. The daughter's new older cousins almost immediately advised her, "You don't EVER want to get spanked by Uncle xxxxxx. Uncle xxxxxx spanks HARD!!" She as the older child was always more willful than my son. He was quiet but never ill-behaved. But the bottom line is this: You should not ever have to spank a child that you can talk to. Spanking (done properly) is not to punish. Certainly not to hurt. Spanking is to get their attention. Once you have that, then you can talk to them.
Expectations were in place, and my kids were never so out of control that they could not be talked to. And when the extended family on my wife's side got together in public (like at a restaurant for an occasion) my kids were allowed to attend. My wife's several nieces and nephews were not. Is it just that they were better kids? Or that they had been taught better?
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 22:13:24 GMT -5
So my little one just passed though on her way to bed. I asked her if I could ask a question. She has been a little salty today, so she was looking at me a little crazy. I said "So for argument's sake, if we were arguing and you spit in my face, what would happen?" She said "I would die. Why?" Does she really think she would die? No! Does she know that I will not take any crap off of a punk kid? Yes! And again, I am a firm believer in spanking.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 22:27:28 GMT -5
My oldest and I were watching a DVR'd episode of Teen Mom 2. One of the teen moms was in a restaurant with her kid who was acting up. She counted to 3. When she got to 3, the kid kept acting the way she was. Because she knew that nothing was going to happen. When my kids were little, something happened at 3. When I got to 3, you got your butt swatted. Mine are 14 and 16 and (even though I don't have to) when I get to 1 or 2, mine shut up and act right. You can't tell me that isn't a result of conditioning.
So IMO, spanking can be used in an effective manner.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Aug 14, 2014 22:27:46 GMT -5
Before anyone has a coronary, I'm not saying that all spanking is automatically abuse. It's a parenting decision I strongly disagree with, but if done reasonably it's not necessarily abuse. I do think there are better ways, though. And hopefully as a society we can start to become more creative with discipline methods so there's no "need" to spank. I don't think spanking is the answer either, but society seems to have been getting worse, with unruly, disrespectful kids ruling the roost. So, how should society deal these kids before they become even more problem I adults? I would argue (as in debate) that people who are raising those unruly children were of a generation where spanking was quite normal. That would made me think that while yes, there are 100s of stories of people being spanked that would claim that they turned out "just fine" - may be they didn't. May be they never learned how to deal with life, emotions and many other things and now are not able to teach that to their children. Just an idea.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 22:31:28 GMT -5
Andi, you sound like a good mom. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that just because I disagree with someone's parenting choices doesn't make them a bad parent. And there's a lot of truth to the idea that all kids are different and you have to figure out what works for your own.
I have a friend who was (and still is, really) firmly in the anti-spanking camp. However, she has an absolute hellion of a toddler. The kind of kid who gives parents-to-be screaming nightmares. And she has had to spank him a few times as an absolute last resort. It really crushed her because she believes that spanking is wrong for her. But I have a lot of sympathy for her situation- the kid kept putting himself in dangerous situations and wouldn't respond to anything else.
I honestly don't know what I'd do in her position but I don't judge her for spanking even though she feels it's wrong. She's trying really hard to be the best mom she can and to discipline her kid in a non-physical way without coddling him or letting him be the boss. He is just a tough kid.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 14, 2014 22:38:21 GMT -5
I don't think spanking is the answer either, but society seems to have been getting worse, with unruly, disrespectful kids ruling the roost. So, how should society deal these kids before they become even more problem I adults? I would argue (as in debate) that people who are raising those unruly children were of a generation where spanking was quite normal. That would made me think that while yes, there are 100s of stories of people being spanked that would claim that they turned out "just fine" - may be they didn't. May be they never learned how to deal with life, emotions and many other things and now are not able to teach that to their children. Just an idea. Or it is the Whoopi Goldberg theory; Her generation spanked kids and those kids grew up and decided: we are going to do it differently, we are going to be our kids BFF's, we are going to talk to them, have a psychology class for every little misbehavior but by lord we will not raise them like our parents did us. So you ended up with kids that had no rules, no respect of elders because elders where to busy being their friends, felt it was all about them because mommy and daddy surely made it seemed that way and the world had to revolve around them. Just an idea But hey I could be wrong, I've been wrong before!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 22:42:45 GMT -5
Permissive parents have always existed. Just because parents don't spank doesn't mean they don't discipline. It really cheeses me off when people imply that spanking = discipline and if you're not spanking, you're not disciplining. Personally, I think I'm actually on the strict side, as a mom. Babybird doesn't get away with half the stuff I see other toddlers pulling. She no doubt thinks I'm a mean mommy when I take her out of a fun place because she's not behaving, but that's all right. At this age, I'm more interested in being her parent than her friend. She has other friends
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Aug 14, 2014 22:45:02 GMT -5
I would argue (as in debate) that people who are raising those unruly children were of a generation where spanking was quite normal. That would made me think that while yes, there are 100s of stories of people being spanked that would claim that they turned out "just fine" - may be they didn't. May be they never learned how to deal with life, emotions and many other things and now are not able to teach that to their children. Just an idea. Or it is the Whoopi Goldberg theory; Her generation spanked kids and those kids grew up and decided: we are going to do it differently, we are going to be our kids BFF's, we are going to talk to them, have a psychology class for every little misbehavior but by lord we will not raise them like our parents did us. So you ended up with kids that had no rules, no respect of elders because elders where to busy being their friends, felt it was all about them because mommy and daddy surely made it seemed that way and the world had to revolve around them. Just an idea But hey I could be wrong, I've been wrong before! May be they decided to do it differently bc they realized it didn't work on them. May be there is no respect for elders bc those elders don't really deserve respect. And may be it's not that there are no rules, but the rules have gotten so convoluted that it's impossible to figure out what is what.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 14, 2014 22:49:12 GMT -5
I would argue (as in debate) that people who are raising those unruly children were of a generation where spanking was quite normal. That would made me think that while yes, there are 100s of stories of people being spanked that would claim that they turned out "just fine" - may be they didn't. May be they never learned how to deal with life, emotions and many other things and now are not able to teach that to their children. Just an idea. Or it is the Whoopi Goldberg theory; Her generation spanked kids and those kids grew up and decided: we are going to do it differently, we are going to be our kids BFF's, we are going to talk to them, have a psychology class for every little misbehavior but by lord we will not raise them like our parents did us. So you ended up with kids that had no rules, no respect of elders because elders where to busy being their friends, felt it was all about them because mommy and daddy surely made it seemed that way and the world had to revolve around them. Just an idea But hey I could be wrong, I've been wrong before! I hate this idea that your kids only respect you if you hit them every now and then. I don't respect anyone who I fear. I get the heck away from them as quickly as possible. My parents instilled love and respect by how they treated us, each other, and everyone else. It's worked pretty well for me to model their behavior. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 22:50:55 GMT -5
Thanks, Firebird. If there is nothing else I am proud of in my life, it is being a good mom. I have made many mistakes in my life. But I will tell any one that I have the best kids around. They both have really good heads on their shoulders. I am so proud of the young women they have turned out to be so far. I love my girls more than myself. I just have a problem with others telling me that I am in some way I am in some way doing an injustice to my girls by parenting them in a way that I see fit.
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