milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2014 20:19:49 GMT -5
As a parent you are not just physically larger, but you are in the psychological and emotional position of being the protector of your child. If you honestly think that treating your child in the same way a pimp would a prostitute is remotely appropriate, then you are a bad parent. No bones about it, joking about using a "pimp hand" is bad enough when it's adults or strangers, but to use that type of language regarding how a parent interacts with a child is sad and wrong.
And if you aren't intelligent enough to come up with another way to teach your child the lesson that s/he shouldn't spit, then you're not intelligent enough to be a parent either.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2014 20:21:19 GMT -5
And I say that having been caned. While I won't say I never did the thing that got me caned again, I certainly went quite a while without doing it. It was kind of a course correction.
I am very sorry you had such a horrible childhood. I can see how you will (rightly) argue that the people who "disciplined" you probably had the same mindset as the people who "disciplined" me.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 20:31:08 GMT -5
I took "pimp hand" to just mean smack the kid around a little. I have said things that I didn't mean in a literal sense during times of anger/frustration. For example, I have certain phrases if you will for each girl. Don't mean to, it just seems to come out the same way for each. The little one is 'Don't get beat up Miss Isabel". For the older one it's "I sure would hate to punch you in your pretty little face". I would never punch my child or literally beat her up. That phrase just signals to get it together or there will be hell to pay!
Actually, I honestly can't remember the last time I hit my child as a form of discipline. It was more when they were littler and not as good at reasoning or understanding consequences. Now adays I have other ways of getting things done. You should see how upset a teenage girl gets when you take her phone away until further notice, or when she can't go out with her friends until her grades come up.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 14, 2014 20:32:08 GMT -5
And I say that having been caned. And see - it still didn't make you human. Further proof that corporal punishment is ineffective and the province of people who are not intelligent enough to come up with more appropriate and effective methods of training. Seriously!!! My dear I apologize for what your mother has put you through and I am sure it wasn't a walk in the park. But your mother did not discipline you with corporal punishment, she abused you. I am sure you are smart enough to understand the difference and also smart enough not to brush everyone with the same brush. You can disagree with someone approach to the way they raise their child but seriously crossing the line by calling those that do it "stupid". Welcome to YM where if you don't agree with me you must be wrong or better yet "not intelligent enough" to know better. Thank God the whole world is not YM.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 14, 2014 20:35:01 GMT -5
...:::"And I don't care if I sound like a judgmental bitch but no kid wakes up at 13 and spits in their parents' face. It happens gradually, over the years. And while I am sure there are children who have some kind of disorder, neurological or whatever, I think a lot of times parents didn't pay attention to certain signs long before such incidents occur.":::... I think this hits the nail on the head (or the kid on the butt). It DIDN'T happen overnight. I bet those parents tried all sorts of "talks" and things like that. Kids aren't stupid, they know how to tell you what you want to hear. But a kid who thinks that he/she can spit in my face -- like SERIOUSLY decides that is a good idea... because they wouldn't have done it if they thought a severe enough consequence would result. Sometimes, you just gotta dispense a pimp hand. The things you think are ok to joke about are sickening. I pray you never have kids. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 14, 2014 20:35:46 GMT -5
And if you aren't intelligent enough to come up with another way to teach your child the lesson that s/he shouldn't spit, then you're not intelligent enough to be a parent either. And I thank god again that no one died and left you the authority on how people should discipline their kids and who should have kids or not. Care to share your thesis on how your approach is better than theirs? How Many case studies? Research you can link us too? Your way is not "the" way or the "only" way. There is a difference between "abuse" and "corporal punishment". But to each it's own... Agree to disagree
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2014 20:37:55 GMT -5
Yes, I understand the difference between abuse and punishment.
I also think that people minimize abuse by calling it cute phrases or by joking about it. There's nothing funny about child abuse and there's nothing really funny about disciplining a tough kid. To use phrases that joke about it or minimize it is wrong.
And yes, if you cannot think of a single other way to discipline than a beating, I would question your intelligence. If someone were to come up with a reason why a physical punishment was the best, most effective method, that would be one thing, but if physical punishment is your default because you can't come up with any better alternatives, you're going to be in for a tough time as a parent if your child is halfway intelligent.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2014 20:41:49 GMT -5
OK milee let me re-assert one of my favorite unpopular opinions that degrees still count for something. A slap in response to being spat on is light years away from the totally unacceptable torture your parents inflicted on you. Again I suspect you'll say that your parents probably thought they were in line. However "reasonable" is a word I've never seen you use regarding your parents. Spoiler... they weren't. It sucks how they treated you, and they were wrong. My Dad hit me, but I love and respect the guy. As an adult, I can understand why he did it. I'm just over the idea that if we all sing kum-bay-ya, everything will work out. Discussions have importance, but if they aren't working, its time to try something else. I can't help you if when I say "pimp hand", you are imagining being whipped by a branch. You probably won't believe me, but I really do feel bad you had to go through that.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 20:43:19 GMT -5
And I say that having been caned. And see - it still didn't make you human. Further proof that corporal punishment is ineffective and the province of people who are not intelligent enough to come up with more appropriate and effective methods of training. Corporal punishment (not abuse such as you were subjected to) isn't ineffective if started at a young age. If you let your kid get away with stuff their whole life before you decide you aren't going to take it anymore then decide to parent, you will have a problem. If you start young, you don't have to go there much if at all when they are older and likely are bigger than you.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 20:43:49 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure milee's mother would have called what she did "corporal punishment" or "discipline." Everyone has their own definition of those terms. What some term discipline others term abuse.
And I'd point out that fifty years ago, what milee endured was pretty normal. Just because we're horrified by it now doesn't mean people always were. Maybe someday we'll get to a point where ALL physical abuse is taken seriously, regardless of the degree or what the receiver did to provoke it. I hope so.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2014 20:45:39 GMT -5
I can't help you if when I say "pimp hand", you are imagining being whipped by a branch. Oh, I must have missed how "pimp hand" had a kind, gentle (or even firm, but respectful) meaning. I'm sure parenting experts - and prostitutes - everywhere are eagerly awaiting enlightenment on the new, caring "pimp hand" technique.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 14, 2014 20:46:51 GMT -5
...:::"And yes, if you cannot think of a single other way to discipline than a beating, I would question your intelligence. If someone were to come up with a reason why a physical punishment was the best, most effective method, that would be one thing, but if physical punishment is your default because you can't come up with any better alternatives, you're going to be in for a tough time as a parent if your child is halfway intelligent.":::...
I think the above is important back story. Once again, I jumped in on the spit in the face. I'm going to assume there was quite a bit of "talking" which preceded it.
Being spat on is an extremely bold expression of disapproval. In that single moment, part of what would go through my head is how the spitter must see me as someone that its OK to spit on.
That will be corrected, immediately.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 14, 2014 20:47:27 GMT -5
And see - it still didn't make you human. Further proof that corporal punishment is ineffective and the province of people who are not intelligent enough to come up with more appropriate and effective methods of training. Corporal punishment (not abuse such as you were subjected to) isn't ineffective if started at a young age. If you let your kid get away with stuff their whole life before you decide you aren't going to take it anymore then decide to parent, you will have a problem. If you start young, you don't have to go there much if at all when they are older and likely are bigger than you. I have never had to hit, SWAT, or spank my kids. Doesn't mean they "get away" with everything either. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 20:48:14 GMT -5
Before anyone has a coronary, I'm not saying that all spanking is automatically abuse. It's a parenting decision I strongly disagree with, but if done reasonably it's not necessarily abuse. I do think there are better ways, though. And hopefully as a society we can start to become more creative with discipline methods so there's no "need" to spank.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 14, 2014 20:49:58 GMT -5
I've told my husband that if any our relatives take it upon themselves to hit our kid, they will never see him again.
If someone could not hit ME legally, no fucking way I'm letting them hit my small, helpless child, who is dependent upon my husband and me for protection. And since my husband and I can't beat each other (without consent)and get away with it, we won't be smacking our kid.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Aug 14, 2014 20:54:02 GMT -5
I didn't say they did. You can discipline your child as you see fit as will I. I'm referring to the child in the OP. Obviously these parents have not been doing a very good job.
Let me ask you this... You say you have never hit your child. Would (s)he even begin to think to spit in your face? Likely no. So whatever you are doing works for you. What I do works for me.
I will never say I regret the way I have raised my kids. I would never expect you to regret how you raise yours. But our kid aren't spitting in our faces and then calling CPS because we are disciplining them. If they are, we're doing it wrong.
ETA: This was in response to raeoflyte. I didn't quote so the post wouldn't be really long.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 20:54:47 GMT -5
I agree milee, that your experience is not what most of us are talking about when we talk about switches and belts growing up. I think that for most of us, it wasn't our parents' primary form of discipline. And most of us knew exactly what kind of repeated bad behavior would have them reaching for their belt. At least I did.
For me, in hindsight, just the possibility was enough to make me avoid it... I have ONE memory of my Mom using a belt on my butt. No scars and no lasting trauma or broken relationship.
So to me, my Mom had a reasonable approach for someone that was willing to use corporal punishment. Your description of your experience sounds vastly different from my experience and imo its understandable that we would see the whole subject differently.
FWIW, I spanked my kids when they were little, but never out of anger. Then I really thought about why I was doing that (because I grew up in a family where it was an acceptable form of discipline) and decided to try to do something different.
But I still don't consider reasonable spankings abuse and I don't judge parents that swat their kid on the butt to get their attention.
I'm really sorry that your childhood was like it was.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2014 20:55:35 GMT -5
...:::"And yes, if you cannot think of a single other way to discipline than a beating, I would question your intelligence. If someone were to come up with a reason why a physical punishment was the best, most effective method, that would be one thing, but if physical punishment is your default because you can't come up with any better alternatives, you're going to be in for a tough time as a parent if your child is halfway intelligent.":::... I think the above is important back story. Once again, I jumped in on the spit in the face. I'm going to assume there was quite a bit of "talking" which preceded it. Being spat on is an extremely bold expression of disapproval. In that single moment, part of what would go through my head is how the spitter must see me as someone that its OK to spit on. That will be corrected, immediately. Nobody is disagreeing with the idea that the situation needs correcting immediately. It does. The consequences should be extremely serious and tailored to be very effective for that kid.
But if you decide to start treating your kids like a pimp does, don't be surprised if that doesn't improve the situation or if it encourages them to get tougher, meaner and maybe decide to fit the role. You might "break" them, you might not. You might just be creating a more effective, hardened adversary. Especially if a "pimp hand" is the extent of your creativity in discipline technique.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Aug 14, 2014 20:55:42 GMT -5
Before anyone has a coronary, I'm not saying that all spanking is automatically abuse. It's a parenting decision I strongly disagree with, but if done reasonably it's not necessarily abuse. I do think there are better ways, though. And hopefully as a society we can start to become more creative with discipline methods so there's no "need" to spank. I don't think spanking is the answer either, but society seems to have been getting worse, with unruly, disrespectful kids ruling the roost. So, how should society deal these kids before they become even more problem I adults?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 14, 2014 20:58:09 GMT -5
...:::"And yes, if you cannot think of a single other way to discipline than a beating, I would question your intelligence. If someone were to come up with a reason why a physical punishment was the best, most effective method, that would be one thing, but if physical punishment is your default because you can't come up with any better alternatives, you're going to be in for a tough time as a parent if your child is halfway intelligent.":::... I think the above is important back story. Once again, I jumped in on the spit in the face. I'm going to assume there was quite a bit of "talking" which preceded it. Being spat on is an extremely bold expression of disapproval. In that single moment, part of what would go through my head is how the spitter must see me as someone that its OK to spit on. That will be corrected, immediately. 13 year old kids are idots. They are crazy. They have wild emotions that they don't know how to handle. In moments they do hate their parents and they react in ways they should not because of it. As a parent, I don't think reacting in kind is mature, smart, helpful, ideal, etc. I'm not say that in any one fleeting moment a parent doesn't hate their kid as well, but they need to practice more patience to get past those feelings without reacting like an immature 13 year old.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2014 20:58:19 GMT -5
I agree milee, that your experience is not what most of us are talking about when we talk about switches and belts growing up. I think that for most of us, it wasn't our parents' primary form of discipline. And most of us knew exactly what kind of repeated bad behavior would have them reaching for their belt. At least I did. For me, in hindsight, just the possibility was enough to make me avoid it... I have ONE memory of my Mom using a belt on my butt. No scars and no lasting trauma or broken relationship. So to me, my Mom had a reasonable approach for someone that was willing to use corporal punishment. Your description of your experience sounds vastly different from my experience and imo its understandable that we would see the whole subject differently. FWIW, I spanked my kids when they were little, but never out of anger. Then I really thought about why I was doing that (because I grew up in a family where it was an acceptable form of discipline) and decided to try to do something different. But I still don't consider reasonable spankings abuse and I don't judge parents that swat their kid on the butt to get their attention. What you're describing - reasoned, measured, punishment that is consistent and predictable - isn't unreasonable. It might not be what I'd choose, but I don't think it's abusive or wrong by definition.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2014 20:58:20 GMT -5
Being spat on is an extremely bold expression of disapproval. In that single moment, part of what would go through my head is how the spitter must see me as someone that its OK to spit on. That will be corrected, immediately. Heres the thing about parenting, it's not about you.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 14, 2014 20:58:52 GMT -5
I've told my husband that if any our relatives take it upon themselves to hit our kid, they will never see him again. If someone could not hit ME legally, no fucking way I'm letting them hit my small, helpless child, who is dependent upon my husband and me for protection. And since my husband and I can't beat each other (without consent)and get away with it, we won't be smacking our kid. It was shocking to me that I had to have this conversation with people, but you really do. I had asked a cousin to babysit once, and timing wise just didn't work out. A while later she had a rant on Facebook about how many kids just need to get hit and how she always disciplined the kids she babysat and they turned our great. I never engage in crap in Facebook but had to on that and told her to stay away from my kids. She said she was backing up the parents and they knew/were ok with it, but I still won't let her near mine. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 14, 2014 21:03:30 GMT -5
Before anyone has a coronary, I'm not saying that all spanking is automatically abuse. It's a parenting decision I strongly disagree with, but if done reasonably it's not necessarily abuse. I do think there are better ways, though. And hopefully as a society we can start to become more creative with discipline methods so there's no "need" to spank. I don't think spanking is the answer either, but society seems to have been getting worse, with unruly, disrespectful kids ruling the roost. So, how should society deal these kids before they become even more problem I adults? IMHO, kids aren't getting worse because they're not being spanked, they're getting worse because parents are not providing discipline (which may or may not involve spanking.) Discipline involves setting up a very clearly defined structure where the kid understands both the rules and consequences. Discipline involves not just punishment but modeling examples of positive and desired behavior. Discipline involves "shaping" which is gradually encouraging what you want and discouraging what you don't; it's gentle and takes a lot of time but is highly effective if you're consistent and gets results without confrontation or exacerbating problems. Discipline involves consistency, even when you're tired or angry or just done. Discipline involves a lot of things that a lot of parents just aren't willing or able to do.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 14, 2014 21:04:45 GMT -5
are kids getting worse? Isn't the new generation of kids always the worst and people wonder how the world will go on when they become adults?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 14, 2014 21:06:59 GMT -5
I didn't say they did. You can discipline your child as you see fit as will I. I'm referring to the child in the OP. Obviously these parents have not been doing a very good job. Let me ask you this... You say you have never hit your child. Would (s)he even begin to think to spit in your face? Likely no. So whatever you are doing works for you. What I do works for me. I will never say I regret the way I have raised my kids. I would never expect you to regret how you raise yours. But our kid aren't spitting in our faces and then calling CPS because we are disciplining them. If they are, we're doing it wrong. ETA: This was in response to raeoflyte. I didn't quote so the post wouldn't be really long. Your first paragraph is not fair. You have no idea beyond the op what the parents have done or what the girl has been through. Sometimes you do everything right and it still goes to shit. My kids are little so I have no idea how they will turn out. I can tell that they like to mimic my behavior. That isn't always a pretty mirror to look into and makes me want to be my best for them. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Aug 14, 2014 21:09:59 GMT -5
are kids getting worse? Isn't the new generation of kids always the worst and people wonder how the world will go on when they become adults? They seem to be to me, though I could be biased. I'm old enough to have seen a few generations after mine, and they seem worse, but not horrible for the most part.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 21:13:26 GMT -5
are kids getting worse? Isn't the new generation of kids always the worst and people wonder how the world will go on when they become adults? For once, Archie hit the nail on the head. Every generation is "the worst" to the previous one and people love to talk about the good old days. In my opinion, a) if the "good kids" in the past were afraid to set a toe out of line because they might get beaten, that wasn't a great situation, and b) the kids I personally know from non-spanking households are incredibly respectful, well-behaved kids. So while anecdotal evidence isn't proof, I do think it's possible to raise well behaved, productive citizens without spanking. Involved, daily parenting with solid non-physical discipline and good example seems like the way to go.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 14, 2014 21:14:28 GMT -5
are kids getting worse? Isn't the new generation of kids always the worst and people wonder how the world will go on when they become adults? For once, Archie hit the nail on the head. Every generation is "the worst" to the previous one and people love to talk about the good old days. In my opinion, a) if the "good kids" in the past were afraid to set a toe out of line because they might get beaten, that wasn't a great situation, and b) the kids I personally know from non-spanking households are incredibly respectful, well-behaved kids. So while anecdotal evidence isn't proof, I do think it's possible to raise well behaved, productive citizens without spanking. Involved, daily parenting with solid non-physical discipline and good example seems like the way to go. You just had to put "for once".... I would have said "once again".
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 14, 2014 21:15:46 GMT -5
Well, I'll admit the post about needing a drink was pretty spot on too
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