milee
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Post by milee on Aug 18, 2014 14:58:21 GMT -5
Do you consider a swat on the butt to be corporal punishment? It really depends on what's actually happening.
IMHO, angry parents are not the best judges of how moderate or temperate they are being. Therefore, best to avoid the situation of having to moderate a physical action by instead choosing an alternate method if at all possible.
Is a "swat" on the butt abuse? No. But it's awfully hard to define what is acceptable versus too hard with a physical strike. Again, if you ask my mom, she'll say that she rarely and lightly spanked us and gave us a "switching". That's not how I (or my sisters) remember it. So I've decided to avoid that issue of semantics by not using physical punishment. YMMV.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Aug 18, 2014 15:10:21 GMT -5
Do you consider a swat on the butt to be corporal punishment? Corporal punishment is defined by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child as: "any punishment in which physical force is used and intended to cause some degree of pain or discomfort, however light."[1] Sooooooooooo... Yes.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 15:19:20 GMT -5
I look back to the time I first swatted DS on his diapered butt. He was running into the street and standing in the middle just daring me to do something about it and him. After talking to him several times, his grandma did as well because he pulled it with her and about gave the woman a heart attack, I had put him to bed and was out in front planting red geraniums. I remember it like it was yesterday because he was always such a good boy. I saw a blur go past out of the corner of my eye and it was him, standing in the middle of that damn street just smiling at me. I must have looked like the exorcist girl because the smile came off his face real quick. I swatted his diapered butt all the way up the driveway and up those stairs and we never had an issue with the street again. Did it hurt him? Not in the slightest but it made a hell of an impression on him that all my firm talk didnt. I'd do it again in a NYM if it meant him not doing anything stupidly dangerous like that again. The devil must have possessed him, he was always such a good child. Go figure.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Aug 18, 2014 15:20:09 GMT -5
A question for those of you that have kids that are difficult, what was your frame of mind (in general) when you were pregnant with them? Sometimes I think the kid gets the temperament of the mother during pregnancy. Yay, another way to blame mothers.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 15:20:15 GMT -5
Do you consider a swat on the butt to be corporal punishment? Corporal punishment is defined by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child as: "any punishment in which physical force is used and intended to cause some degree of pain or discomfort, however light."[1] Sooooooooooo... Yes. Oh, well, the UN, as useless as they are, can't even control their own people. They can kiss my ass when it comes to my child.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 15:20:49 GMT -5
A question for those of you that have kids that are difficult, what was your frame of mind (in general) when you were pregnant with them? Sometimes I think the kid gets the temperament of the mother during pregnancy. Yay, another way to blame mothers. Nope, totally stressed and sick and miserable both times.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Aug 18, 2014 15:23:30 GMT -5
As others have mentioned, if you were to ask most of these parents, they'd just describe what they did as "discipline", "switching", "spanking" or "necessary". That's why I think it's important to not use phrases that minimize things - because it's a classic technique of abusers. As is joking about abuse. We joke about things that aren't really a threat, so joking about it implies it's just no big deal or even worse, that it's justified. If you ask my mom, even today, she sees nothing wrong with how she "disciplined" me. Mine, neither. She will never, ever, ever admit she did anything wrong.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 18, 2014 15:26:07 GMT -5
Thanks for answering. I was expecting to hear that you'd cut all contact - I'm impressed that you were able to maintain a relationship for the sake of your sisters, goldensam. But IMO there's no right or wrong way to deal with a parent who was so abusive. You can't believe the unbelievable amount of judgment and unsolicited advice you get from people when they learn that you don't talk to your mother.
It's interesting, isn't it, that DH doesn't ever talk to his dad and no one ever quizzes/lectures him about that? I'm sorry you have to deal with ignorant people. I'm sure there ARE people who randomly cut off their parents for petty reasons but why would you assume that about someone who mentioned they didn't speak to their parents? Do you consider a swat on the butt to be corporal punishment?
For me, it's less about the degree of physical abuse (although yes, of course that matters and I don't discount it) than about the degree to which you terrorize the kid. I wouldn't begin to put my own experiences with "corporal punishment" up there with what others went through. It's insulting to even compare them. However, part of the reason I'm so sensitive on this topic is because I can remember vividly how terrified I was when my dad (who is a really huge, hulking dude and might as well have been a giant to me when I was small) would spank me. I knew good and well he could really hurt me if he chose, I knew that he was pissed off, and even though the pain itself wasn't that bad, feeling terrorized by my dad was awful. I still feel uncomfortable around him to this day - and I wouldn't even qualify what he did as abusive, let alone compare it to the kind of brutal beatings others experienced. But I remember that terror and it changed our relationship forever. You don't have to hit hard to really scare the living daylights out of your child, and make them permanently afraid that someday you'll hurt them for real. I realize sometimes that fear is the "point" - and I simply don't agree that it's ever right to physically terrify your kids because you're big and they're little.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Aug 18, 2014 15:26:10 GMT -5
You can't believe the unbelievable amount of judgment and unsolicited advice you get from people when they learn that you don't talk to your mother. You're not alone. I still talk to my mom, but it's like a 'pretend' relationship. And it's absolutely impossible to explain to well intentioned people that you a)have thought about it b)realize you only have one mother and c) have done the best thing for your sanity.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 15:27:54 GMT -5
Mine is gone. There are very rare times when I wish I could tell her something. Miss her? Not in the slightest. If there is a hell, she's burning in it, I hope.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 18, 2014 15:28:43 GMT -5
IMHO, angry parents are not the best judges of how moderate or temperate they are being. Therefore, best to avoid the situation of having to moderate a physical action by instead choosing an alternate method if at all possible.
This too. Again, you don't have to use much force to scare a tiny child into submission. Especially if you're pissed as hell. They can sense that and they're automatically terrified because they know full well that you have 100% power and they have 0%.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 18, 2014 16:10:39 GMT -5
A friend of mine had something similar happen to him. His 13 year old daughter was being a brat. He was trying to talk to her and she turned her back on him to walk away. He Put his hand out to grabher shoulder to stop her and scratched her jaw with his fingernail, drawing blood. Daughter called CPS, they came out to investigate. I believe that there was more than one visit involved. Nothing like having a teenager try to hold you hostage with the threat of CPS. I skipped most of the thread, but I think there's a pretty significant difference between this (an accidental injury where none was intended) and battering your child by hitting them across the face.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 18, 2014 16:12:35 GMT -5
::And yes, spitting in someone's face is assault/battery as much as hitting them when it comes to the law.::
Yes, but there's a difference when you're a parent and the other is a minor. This wasn't self defense clearly. Can I beat my 5 year old because they bit me? You can't abuse children just because they may have technically assaulted you, particularly when it's not even to protect yourself, but rather to revenge what they did.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 18, 2014 16:14:27 GMT -5
I skipped most of the thread, but I think there's a pretty significant difference between this (an accidental injury where none was intended) and battering your child by hitting them across the face.
Although sometimes it's a gray area. Remember the scene in The Shining when Jack grabs his kid, tries to spin him around and ends up breaking his arm?
I know it's fictional but that scene really stuck with me. I'm not sure it's possible in real life to break a kid's arm "accidentally."
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Aug 18, 2014 16:24:32 GMT -5
I look back to the time I first swatted DS on his diapered butt. He was running into the street and standing in the middle just daring me to do something about it and him. After talking to him several times, his grandma did as well because he pulled it with her and about gave the woman a heart attack, I had put him to bed and was out in front planting red geraniums. I remember it like it was yesterday because he was always such a good boy. I saw a blur go past out of the corner of my eye and it was him, standing in the middle of that damn street just smiling at me. I must have looked like the exorcist girl because the smile came off his face real quick. I swatted his diapered butt all the way up the driveway and up those stairs and we never had an issue with the street again. Did it hurt him? Not in the slightest but it made a hell of an impression on him that all my firm talk didnt. I'd do it again in a NYM if it meant him not doing anything stupidly dangerous like that again. The devil must have possessed him, he was always such a good child. Go figure. What if, instead of this, the first time he ran into the street you said something along the lines of "That's not safe. If you do that again no more toys/dessert/free play time/whatever he valued at that point." Or "That's not safe. Until you can prove to me that you can be safe outside, no more playing outside." And then the second time he did it, followed through? Would it have gotten to the point where you whaled on him all the way up the stairs? Or was he a kid who would not have responded to those things?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 16:30:29 GMT -5
He hadn't before. Both his grandma who had taught K and I were at a loss. He was normally such a good boy that we both were flummoxed. We both tried a bunch of things including positive and negative reinforcements. Nothing worked. He thought it was hugely funny and just didnt take either of us seriously. I think I reacted more because I was scared for him and because I was just flabbergasted that my normally sweet child was being such a butthead. If it hadn't have been so dangerous and had he not scared the shit out of his sweet grandma, I may have tried some more but I had HAD IT by then. So, yes, I did whop his butt in anger and frustration. He knew it, he knew I meant business, and he stayed out of the street. To this day I just can't imagine what posted him to do it. I also hollered at him while I was doing it. He seems, 29 years later, to have survived "being beaten." He still thinks its hugely funny, turd.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 16:31:29 GMT -5
Possessed him to do it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 18, 2014 16:32:12 GMT -5
What if, instead of this, the first time he ran into the street you said something along the lines of "That's not safe. If you do that again no more toys/dessert/free play time/whatever he valued at that point."
I know you didn't ask me but since I have an (almost) two year old I may be able to speak to this.
We are trying to teach Babybird that she can't run into the street without watching. Thankfully our streets are pretty safe (we live in a condo neighborhood, very few cars). Plus I stay close enough while she's playing that I can monitor the streets on her behalf and hang onto her if there's a car coming and she's trying to run in the streets.
The street thing seems to be the pet example of people who argue "it's okay to spank to scare your kids into not doing something dangerous." Here's my position on that: my kid is (almost) TWO YEARS OLD. It's not her job to know what's dangerous and what's not. Yes, we're teaching her (and she IS learning - she now hesitates at the edge of the street 95% of the time) but it is IMO totally unreasonable for her to perfectly remember from one day to the next that it's dangerous to run into the street.
Attempting to force her to remember with a spanking seems totally counterproductive to me. She's at the age where she sometimes remembers the rules and sometimes doesn't, and that's completely developmentally appropriate. While she's at this age, it's MY job to keep her from running into the street. It's not her job to not run into the street.
Now, when she's five - sure, it makes sense to have consequences for dangerous behavior. Because by then she'll know better. And by then, keeping her inside for the rest of the day ought to send a good message.
That's my position on the whole thing. I don't think physical danger is a good reason to strike a child.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 16:34:35 GMT -5
You're probably right and if that is what's best for you and your child, that's great.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 18, 2014 16:36:41 GMT -5
If your kid is young enough to be in diapers, your kid is young enough that you should be attentive enough as a parent to not let them get into the street. Maybe if the parents caught a beating when this happens they'd watch over their kids a little better. It's not the kid who's misbehaving, it's the negligent parents.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 16:37:59 GMT -5
Mine damn well knew he wasn't supposed to be in the street. It wasnt a mistake or an error in judgment, he was being a booger. Being a booger and annoying a bee is one thing. He did once, I warned him, he didnt stop, and he got the consequences. He wasnt, thankfully, allergic to bee stings and going to die. That would not have been a teaching moment I was willing to risk. But no harm was going to come to him other than tears for not listening when mom said to not bother that bee because it will sting you and it will hurt. Our street was busy and he knew the difference and chose poorly, repeatedly.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 16:39:17 GMT -5
He was in pull-up. He couldn't get through the night without wetting otherwise. He was a fast little bugger when he wanted to be. He was supposed to be in bed btw. I was outside and under his open window. Little rat.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 16:40:23 GMT -5
Hey, DF has a grandchild with lazy parents. The kid is 4 and still is in diapers.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Aug 18, 2014 16:49:01 GMT -5
I hear ya, Zib. Both of my boys have had their moments. They think its a game/testing their boundaries.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Aug 18, 2014 16:51:30 GMT -5
If your kid is young enough to be in diapers, your kid is young enough that you should be attentive enough as a parent to not let them get into the street. Maybe if the parents caught a beating when this happens they'd watch over their kids a little better. It's not the kid who's misbehaving, it's the negligent parents. I have a very tall 1.5 year old. It still shocks me some of the stuff she can get into because she is tall enough to open doors (not tall enough yet to get the deadbolt on the front door). She's tall enough and clever enough that she can almost open the baby gate. Now, I'm aware enough most of the time - knew she was getting close to opening doors so we put door knob covers on them, things like that. But sometimes you don't think your kids are capable of something and they are suddenly able to do it. Like the first time she could reach up and grab something off the counter top - what if it had been a knife. Also kids do weird things. Friday night, DS opened a window in the living room. I don't know why he did it. He's never done anything like that before. I was listening to him and knew he was out of his room and had gone potty, but I didn't think much about it, I heard him go back to his room, imagine my surprise when I went in the living room an hour later and the window was wide open. I was like WTH. (Add in I was watching dateline about home invasion, it was a little creepy).
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 18, 2014 16:51:43 GMT -5
If your kid is young enough to be in diapers, your kid is young enough that you should be attentive enough as a parent to not let them get into the street.
That's my position. I do see kids from our neighborhood who I know to be around Babybird's age playing in the street without close parental supervision and frankly, I think those parents are making a serious error in judgment. It's a PITA to stand out there and supervise when they're playing, I get that (DH hates it because he says watching the kids makes him feel like a creeper) but you've just gotta do it anyway. Playing in the street is not the same as playing in a fenced-in, babyproof backyard which you can see through the kitchen window as you make dinner. The older kids can supervise themselves, I don't have a problem with that in our very safe neighborhood, especially if they're playing with other kids (which they almost always are). But toddlers need to be supervised. It only takes a few seconds for them to get into God knows what and really injure themselves (or just seriously annoy the neighbors by pulling out their beautiful flowers ). As I said, IMO Babybird's safety at this age is my responsibility, not hers. Yes, she's expected to follow certain rules and she experiences certain consequences (I take her inside for the rest of the night if she runs into the street after I've warned her once), but she needs constant reminding of where the yellow lines are located and that's perfectly normal at her age.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Aug 18, 2014 16:53:45 GMT -5
What if, instead of this, the first time he ran into the street you said something along the lines of "That's not safe. If you do that again no more toys/dessert/free play time/whatever he valued at that point."
I know you didn't ask me but since I have an (almost) two year old I may be able to speak to this. We are trying to teach Babybird that she can't run into the street without watching. Thankfully our streets are pretty safe (we live in a condo neighborhood, very few cars). Plus I stay close enough while she's playing that I can monitor the streets on her behalf and hang onto her if there's a car coming and she's trying to run in the streets. The street thing seems to be the pet example of people who argue "it's okay to spank to scare your kids into not doing something dangerous." Here's my position on that: my kid is (almost) TWO YEARS OLD. It's not her job to know what's dangerous and what's not. Yes, we're teaching her but it is (IMO) totally unreasonable for her to perfectly remember from one day to the next that it's dangerous to run into the street. Attempting to force her to remember with a spanking seems totally counterproductive to me. She's at the age where she sometimes remembers the rules and sometimes doesn't, and that's completely developmentally appropriate. While she's at this age, it's MY job to keep her from running into the street. It's not her job to not run into the street. Now, when she's five - sure, it makes sense to have consequences for dangerous behavior. Because by then she'll know better. And by then, keeping her inside for the rest of the day ought to send a good message. That's my position on the whole thing. I don't think physical danger is a good reason to strike a child. As the fellow parent of a 2-year old, I agree. I am assuming Zib's kid was a little older, but maybe not. Regardless, we hold hands when we're near a street or parking lot or she gets carried. Those are the rules. She doesn't always like the rules, but they are the rules. They will remain the rules until she's at least 47. She's 2, so she gets reminded of the rules before we go into a situation and given the choice of how she wants to deal. I think in a similar situation the question is WHY did the kid want to go into the street in the first place? He obviously didn't forget and run out by accident, at least not after the first time, because apaprently he was taunting zib with it. Did he think the street was a magic portal to somewhere else? Did he want some attention? Did he want to see what things looked like from the middle of the street? Did he just want to test the limits? Did he think Mom and Grandma's reactions were hilarious? All of those things would demand different responses, in my mind. My kid does stuff ALL THE TIME that makes no sense to me. Part of being a parent, to me, is trying to figure out why she's doing that stuff in the first place. So I ask. Sometimes she can tell me, sometimes she can't, because she's two. But asking often (not always) gives me a chance to decide how to address a behavior before it drives me absolutely nuts.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 18, 2014 16:54:10 GMT -5
I'm assuming your baby bird is too young. Mine was not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 16:54:26 GMT -5
A question for those of you that have kids that are difficult, what was your frame of mind (in general) when you were pregnant with them? Sometimes I think the kid gets the temperament of the mother during pregnancy. Yay, another way to blame mothers. LOL I actually thought it would be a biology thing rather than a blame thing.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Aug 18, 2014 17:51:37 GMT -5
If your kid is young enough to be in diapers, your kid is young enough that you should be attentive enough as a parent to not let them get into the street.
That's my position. I do see kids from our neighborhood who I know to be around Babybird's age playing in the street without close parental supervision and frankly, I think those parents are making a serious error in judgment. It's a PITA to stand out there and supervise when they're playing, I get that (DH hates it because he says watching the kids makes him feel like a creeper) but you've just gotta do it anyway. Playing in the street is not the same as playing in a fenced-in, babyproof backyard which you can see through the kitchen window as you make dinner. The older kids can supervise themselves, I don't have a problem with that in our very safe neighborhood, especially if they're playing with other kids (which they almost always are). But toddlers need to be supervised. It only takes a few seconds for them to get into God knows what and really injure themselves (or just seriously annoy the neighbors by pulling out their beautiful flowers ). As I said, IMO Babybird's safety at this age is my responsibility, not hers. Yes, she's expected to follow certain rules and she experiences certain consequences (I t ake her inside for the rest of the night if she runs into the street after I've warned her once), but she needs constant reminding of where the yellow lines are located and that's perfectly normal at her age. Don't you think by punishing her you actually are assigning the responsibility to her?
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