Interesting experience with Child Protection Services

[mmhmm]

Aug 16, 2014 8:21:30 GMT -5 achelois said:

Aug 16, 2014 4:49:44 GMT -5 truthbound said:

I saw a similar situation. Punk was bigger than his dad and tried to push him around. Dad was a former Navy Seal. One beat down later and he fell in line lol.

Happily, my son and I didn't have to go to a beat down about it.  I think I must just look scary

Also, if I grounded him or took away a privilege, he could count on having to serve the full sentence. With his dad, he could wiggle out early--time off for good behavior. He tried that line on me and I just told him good behavior was expected and that if he could do it when punished, he ought to be able to do it before he was punished and not get punished in the first place. 

Saves time and trouble for everyone that way. 

Your interchange with your son reminds me of one I had with mine when he was a teen. He decided he was going to holler and curse at me. Umm, no, you're not. I told him to hush. He didn't hush. Finally, I grabbed him by the collar at the nape of his neck (I had to reach up to do so) and walked him down the hall to his room, swatting his fanny all the way. We got to the door of his room and we were both laughing so hard we could barely stand. From that time on, if anything came up he'd just cooperate without a whimper.  His words?  "I'm bigger but she's a lot meaner!"    Good times!

[whoisjohngalt]

Aug 15, 2014 23:30:07 GMT -5 Firebird said:

The way I see it, Lena, she is who she is. I just brought her into the world, I didn't decide what religion/sexuality/gender/profession/personality/etc. she would be.

What about her character?  I think it's much more important that all the other things you listed.

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2014 12:32:48 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Aug 15, 2014 23:30:07 GMT -5 Firebird said:

The way I see it, Lena, she is who she is. I just brought her into the world, I didn't decide what religion/sexuality/gender/profession/personality/etc. she would be.

What about her character?  I think it's much more important that all the other things you listed.

I would lump character with personality. 

[billisonboard]

I remember the last time my mother slapped me. She was pissed about something (again). I caught her arm and held it. We made eye contact and the understanding that I would allow it that one final time but never again passed between us. I let go, she slapped me, then I turned and walked away. That was the end of her physical abuse. 

[Firebird]

Character is certainly one of the things every good parent hopes to impact substantially - and I believe they are a huge influence, mine were - but in the end she decides that too. She'll be an adult with her own life making her own decisions a lot longer than she'll be my baby (knock on wood) and while I hope DH and I help her lay a solid foundation, what she ultimately makes of herself and her life is up to her.

[whoisjohngalt]

Aug 16, 2014 12:38:25 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Aug 16, 2014 12:32:48 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

What about her character?  I think it's much more important that all the other things you listed.

I would lump character with personality. 

If that's the case, then yeah, I don't get that philosophy at all

[goldensam]

I know I'm late to the thread, but I just wanted to give my two cents.  My upbringing was a lot more like milee's.  My mom regularly "spanked" me for discipline.  If you define spanking as forcing me to pull down my pants and underwear even as a teenager to get my butt, legs, and back beaten with a belt, hand, hairbrush, or whatever else she could find that would hurt and leave welts and sometimes bruises.  I remember times where I would be crying and begging her while she would force my pants down if I wouldn't willingly take them off.  She would slap my face or grab me by the hair and pour dishwashing soap down my throat. She would let her many boyfriends and husbands "spank" me. I remember one guy in particular who whipped me with a belt while I was laying on my back on the couch, feet and arms up trying to protect myself.  I was probably 8.  He "spanked" me because I interrupted their afternoon sex. She let him, in the name of "discipline".  

I also remember having to pick my own switch, once very clearly.  I had just gotten out of the neighbor's swimming pool and was wet and in a swimsuit.  It happened in the front yard in front of everyone. I was 9. 

I remember her straddling me while I laid on the floor in elementary school "spanking" me.  I was laying on my back.

The last time she hit me, I remember throwing a chair between the two of us.  I was now 16 and taller than she was.  I didn't hit her back, but I think she knew then that I could.  

Wow, it's hard to type some of these things.  I don't think about it often. But if you ask her now, I was just an awful kid who needed discipline.  Because of my upbringing, it's hard for me to think of spanking as anything other than my experiences.  

CPS was called by my principal when I was in high school.  My mom threatened me that she would punish me more and even commit suicide if I didn't recant.  Guess what?  I recanted.  So just because CPS investigations sometimes favor the parents, I'm jaded enough to not always believe it's because they were actually innocent.  

ETA: All that to say, because of my experiences with what was called spanking and discipline when I was growing up, I cannot bring myself to think physical discipline is ok.  For sure not in my house.

[zibazinski]

Don't know when that was but even if you didn't recant, CPS does nothing. Just leaves the kid with the parent still. I've seen it too many times.

[goldensam]

Aug 17, 2014 7:43:56 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Don't know when that was but even if you didn't recant, CPS does nothing. Just leaves the kid with the parent still. I've seen it too many times.

This was around 2000 or 2001.

[zibazinski]

Yup, you'd have been left. There'd be "further investigation." This was the same time a new neighbor moved in and her daughter was wearing long pants and long sleeve shirts in Florida in the summer. Woman's boyfriend was beating her. I wouldn't allow DD over there and she wasnt allowed in our house because I'm sure, the mom thought we'd find out. CPS was called, they quickly moved to, funny enough, across the condo from my girlfriend, who was also a teacher and called CPS because she could hear the kid screaming. They quickly moved again. 

[Firebird]

What I can't figure out about these awful stories is how some parents can torture their own children and live with themselves. I don't think that's too strong of a word for beating them to the point where you draw blood and/or leave scars. It sounds completely barbaric to me- I'm not sure I could inflict that kind of pain on a murderer, let alone my own child.

I just don't get it. I accidentally knocked Babybird into a table once when we were playing and her howls of pain haunted me for weeks. (She was fine, just a tiny bump- but it sure scared both of us in the moment.) How do these parents sleep at night after listening to their kids wailing and begging them to stop? Are they total sociopaths or what?

[milee]

Aug 17, 2014 14:38:41 GMT -5 Firebird said:

What I can't figure out about these awful stories is how some parents can torture their own children and live with themselves.

As others have mentioned, if you were to ask most of these parents, they'd just describe what they did as "discipline", "switching", "spanking" or "necessary". That's why I think it's important to not use phrases that minimize things - because it's a classic technique of abusers.  As is joking about abuse. We joke about things that aren't really a threat, so joking about it implies it's just no big deal or even worse, that it's justified.

[goldensam]

Aug 17, 2014 16:12:06 GMT -5 milee said:

Aug 17, 2014 14:38:41 GMT -5 Firebird said:

What I can't figure out about these awful stories is how some parents can torture their own children and live with themselves.

As others have mentioned, if you were to ask most of these parents, they'd just describe what they did as "discipline", "switching", "spanking" or "necessary". That's why I think it's important to not use phrases that minimize things - because it's a classic technique of abusers.  As is joking about abuse. We joke about things that aren't really a threat, so joking about it implies it's just no big deal or even worse, that it's justified.

If you ask my mom, even today, she sees nothing wrong with how she "disciplined" me.  

[milee]

Aug 17, 2014 16:43:48 GMT -5 goldensam said:

Aug 17, 2014 16:12:06 GMT -5 milee said:

As others have mentioned, if you were to ask most of these parents, they'd just describe what they did as "discipline", "switching", "spanking" or "necessary". That's why I think it's important to not use phrases that minimize things - because it's a classic technique of abusers.  As is joking about abuse. We joke about things that aren't really a threat, so joking about it implies it's just no big deal or even worse, that it's justified.

If you ask my mom, even today, she sees nothing wrong with how she "disciplined" me.  

Well, you know Goldensam, sometimes you just gotta dispense the Pimp Hand.  It's for the best.  And totally justified.  I'm sure you understand. 

(I apologize for being such a gigantic jerk to minimize what you've posted by joking about it and how it's justified.  Please check your PMs for an explanation.)

[drivingaround]

Aug 17, 2014 14:38:41 GMT -5 Firebird said:

What I can't figure out about these awful stories is how some parents can torture their own children and live with themselves.

Because the parents believe so strongly that the actions they took were in the best interest of their child. The child had it coming or deserved what happened.  It is completely fucked up. If you ask my parents today they will say we were such terrible children and if they didn't discipline us that way then we would've turned into hoodlums.  We were constantly told if we didn't act such and such way then we wouldn't be spanked, forced to eat soap, forced to go without food.  Basically every action that was taken was due to us being a certain way.  Beats the hell out of me, no amount of therapy has helped me understand just exactly what we did as 4 or 5 year-olds that justified their actions.

When I was in my early twenties I got a puppy and the trainer said to teach them not to pee in the house you need to rub their nose in the pee and hold their butt down to the floor at the same time.  I couldn't do it, I couldn't take the sound of the puppy whimpering and she started cowering like I was going to hurt her.  You didn't even use force or hit but the trainer said it was important the puppy was held down.  So yeah, if that's how I felt with a dog I still can't grasp how parents don't feel something when they do stuff to their kids.

[zibazinski]

My mom would say the same thing. Today, MAYBE, her ass would have been at least called on by CPS and maybe some adult wouldn't have looked away but my era of being raised, that's what happened. My pediatrician was an abuser of his own kids. Threw his son down the basement stairs and broke his arm. My grandma told my aunt to mind her own business when she objected to what my mom did to me one time. I was not a bad child in any way, shape or form. I was very firm with my kids and yes, I did spank, on occasion. Usually on a diapered bottom but not always and always when they were old enough to know they did wrong and if they did it again, there'd be consequences. But never, ever like my mom did me.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Aug 17, 2014 14:38:41 GMT -5 Firebird said:

What I can't figure out about these awful stories is how some parents can torture their own children and live with themselves. I don't think that's too strong of a word for beating them to the point where you draw blood and/or leave scars. It sounds completely barbaric to me- I'm not sure I could inflict that kind of pain on a murderer, let alone my own child.

I just don't get it. I accidentally knocked Babybird into a table once when we were playing and her howls of pain haunted me for weeks. (She was fine, just a tiny bump- but it sure scared both of us in the moment.) How do these parents sleep at night after listening to their kids wailing and begging them to stop? Are they total sociopaths or what?

You also have to consider that there are "parents" who don't really love their kids or only have children for selfish reasons.  If you only see the child as a tool to get what you, as the parent, want, you really aren't concerned about the child's hurt or pain, just about how whatever "bad" thing they did affected you.

Look at people who have kids to hold onto/trap a partner, so they don't have to work, to "have someone to always love them", because society says I need to, because their friends have one.

For these people, a child is a tool to be used to reach their end goals.  The child isn't to be loved or respected as an individual... their only value is what they can bring to the parent in reaching whatever goal it is. So if the child messes something up (makes a mess, is loud, etc), that tool is making trouble and needs to be disciplined so they don't do it again.  People like that see their children as items that should only be around to serve them. 

[giramomma]

Aug 17, 2014 14:38:41 GMT -5 Firebird said:

What I can't figure out about these awful stories is how some parents can torture their own children and live with themselves. I don't think that's too strong of a word for beating them to the point where you draw blood and/or leave scars. It sounds completely barbaric to me- I'm not sure I could inflict that kind of pain on a murderer, let alone my own child.

I just don't get it. I accidentally knocked Babybird into a table once when we were playing and her howls of pain haunted me for weeks. (She was fine, just a tiny bump- but it sure scared both of us in the moment.) How do these parents sleep at night after listening to their kids wailing and begging them to stop? Are they total sociopaths or what?

In my parent's case, they thought that I was the issue. They never ever considered that they were the issue.

But, that line of thinking is also is consistent with someone with a personality disorder. My mom was never formally diagnosed. My therapists did arm chair diagnonsis, 4 different folks, over a span of a decade.

My parents have no problem "punishing" me, even now, because, well, that's their job. To parent me. And to that end, they do take it seriously.

I also think that parenting has evolved so much. 30+ years ago, there wasn't  17,904 different parenting strategies. You didn't read and research. My dad grew up poor. You didn't have time for that stuff. The focus was on work to make sure you had food, and maybe even a store bought shirt.

Even now, there are definite differences in parenting between the 8 years that span our oldest and youngest.

 

[Firebird]

I get that it's considered punishment. My point is that I could never "punish" my child that way, even if I somehow felt it was deserved. I couldn't watch someone else do it, either. And I'm not sure in what universe kids have the ability to misbehave to the point that they would deserve such a brutal punishment.

[milee]

Aug 17, 2014 21:19:00 GMT -5 Firebird said:

I get that it's considered punishment. My point is that I could never "punish" my child that way, even if I somehow felt it was deserved. I couldn't watch someone else do it, either. And I'm not sure in what universe kids have the ability to misbehave to the point that they would deserve such a brutal punishment.

You're still looking at the situation with empathy - as a person considering the feelings and needs of the other person. These parents are not looking at anything but their own needs. Their anger, their helplessness, their frustration, their embarrassment... their needs. The feelings and needs of the other person are irrelevant and don't enter into the equation.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

I think some of the problem is society's pressure about everyone should have kids. I know people who have chosen not to have kids and they are given endless grief about how "selfish" they are for not having kids and how they should have kids because "all good people have kids". It's ridiculous. These are people who are good folks but don't have the patience to deal with children on a fulltime basis (They are great Aunt/uncles, babysitters, etc). Instead of seeing the great things they bring the children in their lives (will craft, hike, play with the kids they know), it is all focused on when they are having kids.

I think they are very selfless by having enough self-awareness to know that they wouldn't provide any children with everything they need. Somehow, though, they are wrong and selfish because they don't want to reproduce. I guess it would less "selfish" to have the kids and be horrible parents because you don't have the patience to deal with them.

[Firebird]

goldensam and milee, do either of you still talk to your moms?

[zibazinski]

Aug 17, 2014 20:44:18 GMT -5 Mardi Gras Audrey said:

Aug 17, 2014 14:38:41 GMT -5 Firebird said:

What I can't figure out about these awful stories is how some parents can torture their own children and live with themselves. I don't think that's too strong of a word for beating them to the point where you draw blood and/or leave scars. It sounds completely barbaric to me- I'm not sure I could inflict that kind of pain on a murderer, let alone my own child.

I just don't get it. I accidentally knocked Babybird into a table once when we were playing and her howls of pain haunted me for weeks. (She was fine, just a tiny bump- but it sure scared both of us in the moment.) How do these parents sleep at night after listening to their kids wailing and begging them to stop? Are they total sociopaths or what?

You also have to consider that there are "parents" who don't really love their kids or only have children for selfish reasons.  If you only see the child as a tool to get what you, as the parent, want, you really aren't concerned about the child's hurt or pain, just about how whatever "bad" thing they did affected you.

Look at people who have kids to hold onto/trap a partner, so they don't have to work, to "have someone to always love them", because society says I need to, because their friends have one.

For these people, a child is a tool to be used to reach their end goals.  The child isn't to be loved or respected as an individual... their only value is what they can bring to the parent in reaching whatever goal it is. So if the child messes something up (makes a mess, is loud, etc), that tool is making trouble and needs to be disciplined so they don't do it again.  People like that see their children as items that should only be around to serve them. 

I was the cement child to keep my dad. Then of course I was the wrong gender and my twin who was the right gender died. I'm sure she never forgave me for that, like it was my fault. If I had died and he lived, shed have been thrilled.

[goldensam]

Aug 18, 2014 9:00:21 GMT -5 Firebird said:

goldensam and milee, do either of you still talk to your moms?

We were estranged for a few years.  I moved out at 16 after the last incident.  We started talking again my second year of college when she was going through another divorce. At that point, I had three younger siblings still at home that I couldn't bear not to have a relationship with.  It's taken over a decade, but we now speak at least once a week or so.  She does not acknowledge any of these things but my sibling closest in age to me does and we speak about it freely, because we both experienced a lot of the same things. 

It hasn't been an easy path to a relationship with her, especially since an apology or even acknowledgement ever came, but I loved my sisters too much to fully burn the bridge. 

[milee]

Aug 18, 2014 9:00:21 GMT -5 Firebird said:

goldensam and milee, do either of you still talk to your moms?

No.

Not sure, but think it might have been possible to have a distant relationship if I hadn't had children.  However, having kids and looking at the situation through a parent's eyes brought on a new wave of horror and anger.  I guess I'd done well up to that point by growing a harder shell, making sure good boundaries were in place and just soldiering on, but I'm still not OK with what happened and that became really clear later on.  When my first son was born and I realized what it was like to be a parent - felt the love, the need to protect, the awesome and amazing responsibility to keep that little person safe - and then remembered some of the ways I was treated as a little person... I got physically sick.  Even though I'd been out of the house and had no contact with either parent for over 10 years, memories would come back in waves and I'd vomit or cry from being so horrified that any parent could do those things.  The thought of allowing any of those things - much less doing them - to my son was unthinkable and it devastated me that I didn't have a parent that cared that way to protect me.  My husband and kids had no idea why I'd have to suddenly leave and have some alone time; it wasn't anything they did.  And, like Goldensam's mother, mine also denies anything inappropriate ever happened.  If you were to know her from church - yes, she's very active in her church - you'd hear and believe about how she was a wonderful, loving mother who has now been abandoned by her ungrateful, awful children.  But also like Goldensam, my sisters remember and we know the truth. 

You can't believe the unbelievable amount of judgment and unsolicited advice you get from people when they learn that you don't talk to your mother.  I don't discuss that with people because it really stinks to get a well-meaning but misplaced talk about how important family is and how I need to repair the relationship before she dies, etc.  I listen politely and tell myself that I'm glad that they've lived a life that's been good enough that they can't comprehend a situation where it's reasonable to not speak to a parent, but it also grates I've had to cut off contact to protect myself and help break the cycle of abuse yet I'm the one that is made out to be the bad guy for not talking to her parent.

Probably more than you wanted to know.  But no, I don't talk to my mom.  And as time goes by, I'm more and more at peace with that and think it was one of the smartest things I ever did not just for me but for my children as well.

[Lizard Queen]

Milee, I understand why you wouldn't want to talk about your past with these people, but in a way, it seems like not talking about it is kind of like staying home from school so that nobody finds out.

I'm not sure that I'm relaying this idea very well. I'm saying it in this way.

[sheilaincali]

millee- DH had a shitty childhood and it wasn't until DS was getting older that he started to really see what a crappy parent his mom was. He had it out with her (at the advice of his therapist) in February of 2009. And that is the last time we have seen her.  He laid everything out and she told him that he wasn't remembering things correctly. He told her about his bi polar diagnosis and she said "oh you were diagnosed when you were 16 but I told that doctor he was full of shit and we never went back to him".

The final straw was when he told her about being molested by a family member and she responded with "K did that to you? I always assumed it was C". That right there told him she was aware of the abuse and did nothing to stop it.

He walked away at that point and has never looked back. Two years ago she started occasionally commenting on things of FB but doesn't understand private messages. She stopped posting at all after he chewed her out for writing on his public wall 'So did you hear that Bob X died? OMG he was such a drunk and an asshole. The world is better off without him". Yeah so DH is fb friends with Bob's widow and 2 adult children. 

I seriously wanted to give his therapist a hug when DH told him how the showdown went and he said "Your mother is toxic to your recovery and I would strongly recommend that you limit communication with her"

[NastyWoman]

Reading Achelois and mmmhmmm posts reminds me of my two kids when they were taller than I am around age 10.  Their "you can't make me do it (from new found power based on their height)" was met by my "  but you do know who buys and prepares the food in this family right so suit yourself." 
Somehow that was enough of a response

[Pants]

Aug 18, 2014 13:46:51 GMT -5 milee said:

Aug 18, 2014 9:00:21 GMT -5 Firebird said:

goldensam and milee, do either of you still talk to your moms?

When my first son was born and I realized what it was like to be a parent - felt the love, the need to protect, the awesome and amazing responsibility to keep that little person safe

The bold is why I believe people should not use corporal punishment. How do you reconcile love like that and that responsibility with hurting someone smaller, weaker, dependent on you? Why is it only these youngest, weakest people that we condone this behavior towards? (Not the outright abusive behavior that so many have experienced, but the "pimp hand" "get their attention" version?)

Milee - I'm sorry that you went through that. I am sorry noone spoke out for you and protected you. I am glad that you have managed to break the cycle of abuse. 

[zibazinski]

Do you consider a swat on the butt to be corporal punishment?