Only in America- 5yo shoots/kills 5yo and it's an 'accident'

[EVT1]

www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/01/5-year-old-idaho-girl-killed-in-shooting-after-another-5-year-old-gets-gun-is/

Apparently Idaho has no laws pertaining to storing guns around children.

    Idaho law on the storage of firearms which include handguns, rifles, shotguns, carbines, and others

is currently undefined. At the time of this writing, there are no Idaho laws we can locate that

specifically speak to the responsibility of the gun owner to secure his weapons.

www.level1firearms.com/Education/Safe_Storage_of_a_Firearm_in_Idaho.html

smartgunlaws.org/child-access-prevention-policy-summary/

Accident my ass.  Negligent homicide.

[cme1201]

Only in America- 5yo shoots/kills 5yo and it's an 'accident'

Accident my ass. Negligent homicide.

I agree the 5 yo should stand trial!

[Deleted]

I am ALL for gun ownership... by responsible adults.

The gun owner should be charged for "negligent homicide". A 5 year old doesn't understand consequences. An adult should.

[Opti]

These accidents involving children probably happen every year just like kids and dogs dying in

a too hot car. As long as humans are involved, it will likely never drop to 0 incidents per year.

Hopefully it was indeed an accident by the child. Usually its a sibling or a friend that is killed.

I know its wrong, but just once I'd like to read about a sister accidently shooting a brother

instead of the usual brother kills sister or other brother story.

[EVT1]

When a child die because a parent leaves them in a hot car we tend to prosecute them. Why do parents that leave a loaded gun out where a child can get it get a pass in so many places when someone gets killed?

[EVT1]

Aug 2, 2014 18:23:19 GMT -5 cme1201 said:

Only in America- 5yo shoots/kills 5yo and it's an 'accident'

Accident my ass. Negligent homicide.

I agree the 5 yo should stand trial!

That child is going to have to go through life knowing they killed another child- more than plenty punishment for what the parent(s) set in motion.

 

[Shooby]

I agree. If it is your gun , you are responsible for it. And if the gun got into the hands of kids , the gun owner should be charged.

[Opti]

Aug 2, 2014 20:32:25 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I agree. If it is your gun , you are responsible for it. And if the gun got into the hands of kids , the gun owner should be charged.

Shooby, a conservative agrees. So folks write that law. What constitutes being a negligent

gun owner parent? How will you prove or disprove the negligence of the parent?

What should the punishment be?

The easy thing about car deaths is one can't deny its their car or plausibly pretend someone

else left the kid there, etc. How will the police prove the gun wasn't secured properly.

How does the home-owner not get punished if the kids steal the gun cabinet keys or someone

breaks into the cabinet?

[Shooby]

You prove it the way u prove any crime. Where was the gun? What measures were taken by the homeowner to ensure gun safety? Who was responsible to watch the 5 yr olds , etc? Yes. If your gun was locked and soneone stole the keys , that is a completely different scenario than this.

[EVT1]

Problem is- it isn't against the law to leave a loaded gun lying around the house in that state and many others.  That's the part that has me angry.

That and it happens all the damn time and people still do not learn.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

How can you charge a 5 y/o? Charge the negligent parent for not properly securing their weapon - especially with children in the home - this includes either a locked gun-safe or gun case, AND trigger-locks on the weapon.

As a former target-shooter, this appalls me - that adults can be so irresponsible with their firearms.

If you aren't going to take the proper precautions, you shouldn't be in possession of them.

Thank goodness, firearm possession is much more strict here (in Canada) - although there still are a$$holes here too, when it comes to guns and the handling/storage of weapons.

[Deleted]

Aug 2, 2014 23:12:48 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Problem is- it isn't against the law to leave a loaded gun lying around the house in that state and many others.  That's the part that has me angry.

That and it happens all the damn time and people still do not learn.

I'm all for protecting kids, but believe we're going too far with these gun storage laws.
When one needs quick protection, an unloaded stored gun would be useless.
The answer is to educate our kids. We educate them against all kinds of dangers. How is this any different?

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Aug 3, 2014 0:07:16 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

I'm all for protecting kids, but believe we're going too far with these gun storage laws.
When one needs quick protection, an unloaded stored gun would be useless.
The answer is to educate our kids. We educate them against all kinds of dangers. How is this any different?

If you were all for protecting kids, you WOULD believe in gun storage laws - or not so much enforcement of laws, but common-sense storage/safety measures taken as a precaution by the owner of the weapon.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm all for the right to bear arms - BUT - I don't believe that you have to have a loaded weapon out in the open just lying around for protecting  yourself  "just in case".

I doubt it's that dangerous where you live either, Lone - that you feel the need to have a loaded weapon sitting on a table at the ready. That strikes me as possibly living in a state of fear or paranoia - that's what causes so many unnecessary shootings, AND deaths - people over-reacting and reaching for a weapon at the first sign of what may (or may not be) an intrusion or threat.

Thank goodness I took proper training and know not to react irrationally and keep a cool head, when it comes to picking up a weapon - and firing.

This was a 5 year-old - not much older than a toddler - with children that young in the residence, it was the parents/adults who were irresponsible leaving their weapon out for the child to have access to in the first place.


.

[Opti]

Aug 3, 2014 0:07:16 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Aug 2, 2014 23:12:48 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Problem is- it isn't against the law to leave a loaded gun lying around the house in that state and many others.  That's the part that has me angry.

That and it happens all the damn time and people still do not learn.

I'm all for protecting kids, but believe we're going too far with these gun storage laws.
When one needs quick protection, an unloaded stored gun would be useless.
The answer is to educate our kids. We educate them against all kinds of dangers. How is this any different?

This is why I asked on this thread how would you craft this law?

Lone's comment is going to be one of the objections and its

proponents will likely use the anti-gun argument against anyone

who wants yet another law concerning guns.

[Opti]

Aug 2, 2014 20:52:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

You prove it the way u prove any crime. Where was the gun? What measures were taken by the homeowner to ensure gun safety? Who was responsible to watch the 5 yr olds , etc? Yes. If your gun was locked and soneone stole the keys , that is a completely different scenario than this.

Many crimes can't be proven which is totally the reason I asked.

Unless you have a camera trained on where the gun was stored

how do you prove or not where it was originally?

How can you prove or not that the owner had it in a gun safe or

had left it negligently on the coffee table? Again without cameras

you won't be able to prove anything. Now you can use witness

testimony but then you are using kid testimony versus parent testimony.

That's probably going to be even less effective and truthful than the

current prosecution of sexual abuse of children. Because for this gun scenario, it will always be

in the family, except that rare case with the neighbor or someone which

to date I have never ever read about.

It will be a prosecution nightmare unless you write the law to basically

assume the parents are at fault unless they can prove otherwise.

[Opti]

As a non-gun owner I was blissfully unaware of most laws concerning personal gun ownership.

I did find a link to an article abstract some might find interesting.

Abstract

CONTEXT:

Since 1989, several states have passed laws that make gun owners criminally liable if someone is injured because a child gains unsupervised access to a gun. These laws are controversial, and their effect on firearm-related injuries is unknown.

OBJECTIVE:

To determine if state laws that require safe storage of firearms are associated with a reduction in child mortality due to firearms.

RESULTS:

Laws that make gun owners responsible for storing firearms in a manner that makes them inaccessible to children were in effect for at least 1 year in 12 states from 1990 through 1994. Among children younger than 15 years, unintentional shooting deaths were reduced by 23% (95% confidence interval, 6%-37%) during the years covered by these laws.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9315767

[Shooby]

Aug 3, 2014 7:15:01 GMT -5 Opti said:

Aug 2, 2014 20:52:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

You prove it the way u prove any crime. Where was the gun? What measures were taken by the homeowner to ensure gun safety? Who was responsible to watch the 5 yr olds , etc? Yes. If your gun was locked and soneone stole the keys , that is a completely different scenario than this.

Many crimes can't be proven which is totally the reason I asked.

Unless you have a camera trained on where the gun was stored

how do you prove or not where it was originally?

How can you prove or not that the owner had it in a gun safe or

had left it negligently on the coffee table? Again without cameras

you won't be able to prove anything. Now you can use witness

testimony but then you are using kid testimony versus parent testimony.

That's probably going to be even less effective and truthful than the

current prosecution of sexual abuse of children. Because for this gun scenario, it will always be

in the family, except that rare case with the neighbor or someone which

to date I have never ever read about.

It will be a prosecution nightmare unless you write the law to basically

assume the parents are at fault unless they can prove otherwise.

Oh well then. Let's shut down the criminal justice system since we can't catch every crime on tape.

[Opti]

Aug 3, 2014 8:35:54 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Aug 3, 2014 7:15:01 GMT -5 Opti said:

Many crimes can't be proven which is totally the reason I asked.

Unless you have a camera trained on where the gun was stored

how do you prove or not where it was originally?

How can you prove or not that the owner had it in a gun safe or

had left it negligently on the coffee table? Again without cameras

you won't be able to prove anything. Now you can use witness

testimony but then you are using kid testimony versus parent testimony.

That's probably going to be even less effective and truthful than the

current prosecution of sexual abuse of children. Because for this gun scenario, it will always be

in the family, except that rare case with the neighbor or someone which

to date I have never ever read about.

It will be a prosecution nightmare unless you write the law to basically

assume the parents are at fault unless they can prove otherwise.

Oh well then. Let's shut down the criminal justice system since we can't catch every crime on tape.

You just love simplistic absolutist arguments don't you?

I prefer to be practical and realistic. How you craft a law can largely determine

the likelihood of it being enforced. Can determine whether the law will

even work to fix or change the condition it was created for.

[Shooby]

I gave you the point of charging the parent butof ccourse in your world that just isnt " possible" because it might be hard . I think you are serving up simplicity for every meal .

[Opti]

Aug 3, 2014 9:04:40 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I gave you the point of charging the parent butof ccourse in your world that just isnt " possible" because it might be hard . I think you are serving up simplicity for every meal .

I didn't say that. In my world I see the complexity of most things and very often

some ways to simplify it. I don't think you are capable or interested in answering the

question I asked.

What is the actual law you want to create?

That's pretty simple. You can not write a law with vague hand waving that says

parents must secure guns away from their children. Its not enforceable.

 

I am OK with not having a new law just to prevent accidental gun deaths involving children

and their parents firearms.

[Shooby]

You can try people for manslaughter or negligence without any specific law. Wrongful death , a civil suit whatever .

[Deleted]

Aug 3, 2014 0:19:08 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Aug 3, 2014 0:07:16 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

I'm all for protecting kids, but believe we're going too far with these gun storage laws.
When one needs quick protection, an unloaded stored gun would be useless.
The answer is to educate our kids. We educate them against all kinds of dangers. How is this any different?

If you were all for protecting kids, you WOULD believe in gun storage laws - or not so much enforcement of laws, but common-sense storage/safety measures taken as a precaution by the owner of the weapon.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm all for the right to bear arms - BUT - I don't believe that you have to have a loaded weapon out in the open just lying around for protecting  yourself  "just in case".

I doubt it's that dangerous where you live either, Lone - that you feel the need to have a loaded weapon sitting on a table at the ready. That strikes me as possibly living in a state of fear or paranoia - that's what causes so many unnecessary shootings, AND deaths - people over-reacting and reaching for a weapon at the first sign of what may (or may not be) an intrusion or threat.

Thank goodness I took proper training and know not to react irrationally and keep a cool head, when it comes to picking up a weapon - and firing.

This was a 5 year-old - not much older than a toddler - with children that young in the residence, it was the parents/adults who were irresponsible leaving their weapon out for the child to have access to in the first place.


.

I don't want to live under laws that were created because some parents are irresponsible idiots, who don't bother to teach or monitor their offspring. We recently had our vet murdered, 8 miles from us, so yes we live in a dangerous area. Why bother having a weapon if it's secured in such a manner that it's useless? Maybe that's the ultimate goal of those seeking such laws? 

[Deleted]

Aug 3, 2014 7:09:07 GMT -5 Opti said:

Aug 3, 2014 0:07:16 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

I'm all for protecting kids, but believe we're going too far with these gun storage laws.
When one needs quick protection, an unloaded stored gun would be useless.
The answer is to educate our kids. We educate them against all kinds of dangers. How is this any different?

This is why I asked on this thread how would you craft this law?

Lone's comment is going to be one of the objections and its

proponents will likely use the anti-gun argument against anyone

who wants yet another law concerning guns.

The only law I would now like to see crafted would make it illegal for idiots to have children.
I've been in situations where I've been panicked in the middle of the night and I couldn't even remember my own address or phone number. How in the world would I manage to get out of bed, make my way in the dark to the safe, remember the combination, get the gun, find the bullets and load it? I'd be better off throwing my alarm clock at the intruder.
We don't need more gun laws.  

[Opti]

Aug 3, 2014 9:19:45 GMT -5 Shooby said:

You can try people for manslaughter or negligence without any specific law. Wrongful death , a civil suit whatever .

You mean besides creating a new law, using existing laws on the books?

You'd have to know and understand the current law though, to know whether that is

even possible. The fact that I have yet to read about parents going to jail or being charged

in these accidental deaths suggest it may not work.

I suppose a civil suit might work if it is divorced parents.

Swamp can weigh in if she's reading this thread.

[Opti]

The only law I would now like to see crafted would make it illegal for idiots to have children.

Sorry Lone, you know that's wishful thinking.

Imagine the fun of creating legalese to define what behaviors prevent adults from being

allowed to have children.

[EVT1]

Aug 3, 2014 0:07:16 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Aug 2, 2014 23:12:48 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Problem is- it isn't against the law to leave a loaded gun lying around the house in that state and many others.  That's the part that has me angry.

That and it happens all the damn time and people still do not learn.

I'm all for protecting kids, but believe we're going too far with these gun storage laws.
When one needs quick protection, an unloaded stored gun would be useless.
The answer is to educate our kids. We educate them against all kinds of dangers. How is this any different?

You sound like the NRA.  It is quite obvious we have not gone far enough with these laws as there aren't any in half the states.

It isn't that hard to keep a loaded gun out of the hands of a 5y/o- so why would you not want these idiots to pay for their stupidity by attaching some criminal penalties when people end up shot or killed when they leave their weapons lying around?

[tallguy]

It may be legitimate at times to attach criminal penalties in "negligence" cases, but at the VERY least it should cost the gun owner their right to keep a gun.  It is absolutely incumbent upon gun owners to be responsible stewards of that right, and those who are unable to be so should lose that right. 

[Deleted]

Unfortunately once the shooting has happened, it's fairly obvious who's gun it is. THAT'S how you prove negligence.

Unless it's a weapon that has been criminally altered (serial numbers removed) or was stolen... the serial number will attest as to who's gun it is, and the fact that a kid had it in the first place is prima fascia evidence that it OBVIOUSLY wasn't stored safely.

Make the penalty for "gun death by child" STRONG (no "$500 fine and/or 30 days in jail" crap... make it a REAL penalty... like "Life, without the possibility of parole", and there will be less people willing to risk it.

Now... will that type of "enforcement" stop every incident? Probably not. But if it saves even ONE child... just ONE... It's worth it.

I'm an AVID gun rights defender... and I own several guns that I would LOVE to have in my home (no, I'm not paranoid, but there have been break-ins, and when seconds count, the police are only minutes away)... but I don't have a single one there... because I KNOW the child in the house is NOT responsible enough for them to be there.

[EVT1]

Agree- sure maybe loaded gun in the nightstand drawer is fine if you don't have kids........

I just wish they would stop calling these 'accidents'- just come out and say another child has been killed because of an irresponsible gun owner.

TN has a law about this- and still there are cases where nothing happens:

www.wrcbtv.com/story/22508119/day-two

     Wiping tears from their faces, Thomas and Samantha Wallace were forced to relive the day their 2 year-old daughter Camron died.
 
     "There was a revolver in a night stand in the master bedroom," Detective James Tate testified. "That revolver was loaded."

     Samantha Wallace told Detective James Tate she was in the other room when Camron's 5-year-old sibling fired the .45 caliber revolver, hitting her in the chest.

Thomas and Samantha Wallace found not guilty of criminally negligent homicide.

[Deleted]

How the hell is that "not guilty"? His gun, in their house.

Sounds like "Jury Nullification" to me (where the Jury basically says "eff the law, this person shouldn't be punished").