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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 9:54:37 GMT -5
"Ditto and Ditto. Now, please excuse me while I go plan my next European vacation." Soo, the implication is that people with kids can't go on a European vacation. Soooo, let's stop pretending that making a statement/judgment is somehow "bad". lol Id certainly be planning a much different European Vacation if the majority of it wasn't taking kids to see gma... And I asked a friend to point out what I can't miss in London, but since her kids are 1-8 and mine are 13/15, it still isn't the same... Again, to each his own.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 9:55:08 GMT -5
I had youngest at 41 and I'll turn 59.5 a few days after he turns 18 so I'll be able to draw from retirement accounts penalty free for college. I'll retire when he graduates. Mine are also 8 years apart, which is kind of nice because older one can look after younger.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Jul 7, 2014 10:06:51 GMT -5
I never wanted kids, but after being with my current wife I was ok with having one. It turns out she has unexplained fertility and unless you have been on that roller coaster you have no idea how much it hurts her when someone says anything about us having kids, it just cuts through her like a knife. If someone does say something, friend or family I will pull them aside and ask them nicely to not bring it up, the couple people that have brought it up again later I have pretty much yelled at until they were in tears.My wife still has a full life with career, friends and family. My nephews on her side have gotten to do so many more activities and go on so many more trips because my wife has paid for it, one of them is spending this week at our house and while I am at work she took the week off to take him to do all kinds if cool things. I would take the Pepsi challenge that our lives are as fulfilling as anyone else's, kids or not. Thank you for yelling at them! I hope that you made them feel as shitty as possible because they are shitty. The nerve!
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 7, 2014 10:09:45 GMT -5
I think a lot of it is because most people tend to be more financially stable when they are in their mid-to-late 30's. At least I didn't even consider having children until I was around 33/34 (and unfortunately by that time it was too late), because I wanted to make sure I was in the best financial position possible. In terms of patience, well I have no idea if I would have been more patient in my early 20's versus now. See, I think this is interesting. Because, in some respects, it circles back to how our kids start out their adult lives. I started out my adult life (after college graduation), with a positive net worth (not much though). But, not being saddled with college debt and being willing to not engage in lifestyle creep (I was driving around in a 17 year old car..) right out of college gave us choices and flexibility. I think it also helps that DH and I aren't "career" type folks. We also knew we'd never be a 6 figure family, especially since the plan was for me to be the SAHM. By the time we had our first, we did have a real starter home (2 bedroom), a fully funded EF, and our sinking funds were fairly funded. I also managed to save enough to replace my income for a month, since I didn't get paid leave and I was the only source of income. I thought, honestly, that was enough. We didn't fully achieve the solidly middle class lifestyle until we were in our mid 30s. My oldest is 10. He does not care that we didn't spend much on him when he was 1 or 2. My 6 year old does not remember that she didn't have a place to call her own in our two bedroom home. She got two drawers and slept in a playpen in the living room. I try not to be too cheap with the third, as the other kids will notice and say something. ETA: I'm betting that my DD1 is going to have fertility issues, just like I do. She's going to have to carefully weigh her decisions. And I plan to tell her that.
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mrnewengland
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Post by mrnewengland on Jul 7, 2014 10:12:02 GMT -5
Kids really stress me out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 10:14:04 GMT -5
Good points!
We started out our lives together young and with kids, always living on one income, even if we had two... If we'd been DINKs first, I think it WOULD have been harder to dial that back in order to incorporate kids, than to just structure life with them from the beginning.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 7, 2014 10:16:50 GMT -5
"I'm not sorry I had kids and I'm sure not sorry they're gone. But I would have had a much better and happier life without them. This much I know for sure." How could you possibly really KNOW that? Your life would have taken different twists and turns. But, how could you KNOW you would have been happier? Because I made decisions harmful to me based on doing what was best for them. If I only had me to consider, I'd have made different choices. Better ones for me.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jul 7, 2014 10:30:10 GMT -5
I think a lot of it is because most people tend to be more financially stable when they are in their mid-to-late 30's. At least I didn't even consider having children until I was around 33/34 (and unfortunately by that time it was too late), because I wanted to make sure I was in the best financial position possible. In terms of patience, well I have no idea if I would have been more patient in my early 20's versus now. See, I think this is interesting. Because, in some respects, it circles back to how our kids start out their adult lives. I started out my adult life (after college graduation), with a positive net worth (not much though). But, not being saddled with college debt and being willing to not engage in lifestyle creep (I was driving around in a 17 year old car..) right out of college gave us choices and flexibility. I think it also helps that DH and I aren't "career" type folks. We also knew we'd never be a 6 figure family, especially since the plan was for me to be the SAHM. By the time we had our first, we did have a real starter home (2 bedroom), a fully funded EF, and our sinking funds were fairly funded. I also managed to save enough to replace my income for a month, since I didn't get paid leave and I was the only source of income. I thought, honestly, that was enough. I agree about a lot of it depends on how kids start out their adult lives. I graduated with student loans, and I couldn't have supported a child with the income of my first job (I made 23K, which was enough to support myself, but not another person), or even my second job. It wasn't until I got into my 30's that I had a job (at least as a single person) that provided enough income where I could cover expenses like health insurance and daycare. And for me, personally, I thought it was irresponsible to bring a child into the world when i couldn't provide the basics for. But, I am also single, and so everything would fall on me. If I was married, I think I would have been more willing to take a risk, as there were two potential people who could earn a living.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 7, 2014 10:42:43 GMT -5
I should have had kids at 20/21. I just knew I'd be better off by 30... Except I wasn't. But late 20's/early 30's have been pretty good times to have kids. It's the wanting a 3rd when I'm rounding 35 that scares me.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 7, 2014 10:42:55 GMT -5
Good points! We started out our lives together young and with kids, always living on one income, even if we had two... If we'd been DINKs first, I think it WOULD have been harder to dial that back in order to incorporate kids, than to just structure life with them from the beginning. We got married on my 21st birthday (eloped while completely sober ) and on my 22nd birthday (or our first wedding anniversary) we found out I was pregnant with the Boy. So we only had a year of getting to know each other without kids. So for the bulk of our married life it has been the three of us. I wouldn't wish to go back and do things differently because in the end it all worked out just fine. But we had no clue what we were doing. DS was a pleasant, yet completely unplanned surprise. (Who knew you had to take the pesky bc pills every day!)
While pregnant with him we knew we would have him but we also knew we didn't want any more. Doctor argued with us but did agree to give DH his vasectomy when the Boy was 2. Had I not had that pleasant surprise I really don't know if I would have made the conscious decision to have kids. As it was DS slid pretty seamlessly into our lives because we hadn't been together long enough to get used to not having him really.
That's why we are looking forward to him going off to college. It'll be new and different to have it be just DH and I day in and day out.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 7, 2014 10:51:49 GMT -5
I agree about a lot of it depends on how kids start out their adult lives. I graduated with student loans, and I couldn't have supported a child with the income of my first job (I made 23K, which was enough to support myself, but not another person), or even my second job
There is a lot of truth to this. DH and I were active duty enlisted in the Air Force so we both had full time, stable jobs. The entire pregnancy doctoring/ultrasounds/bed rest along with a C-section and 5 day stay in the hospital cost me a whooping $65 out of pocket. Honestly - had we not been in the military we never would have gotten married so young and had I found myself pregnant at 22 in that situation, we'd have likely had a much more difficult conversation and decision in front of us.
It's interesting now because so many of our friends have younger kids they are jealous that the Boy is as old as he is. Several commented that they should have started earlier so they'd be closer to being "done" now too.
I don't know what the right decision is I just know that we had a few lean years there in the beginning but those are hardly a blimp on my radar now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 11:40:02 GMT -5
When you got pregnant you had choices. You decided that having and raising them was most important to you. If it wasn't, then you could have, and probably should have, gone another route, but you decided they were YOUR priority. Nothing cruel there... The only thing I would argue about is the use of the word sacrifice, but that's probably more a semantics things. I don't personally make sacrifices. I make choices. sacrifice verb : to give up (something that you want to keep) especially in order to get or do something else or to help someone: to kill (a person or animal) in a religious ceremony as an offering to please a god baseball : to make a sacrifice bunt The bolded part is what I mean when I say I sacrificed some of my wants for my kids' needs. I do agree that it was always a choice though, and my use of the word sacrifce doesn't mean I think I did something extraordinary. If what I wanted/wanted to do conflicted with what I believed to be in the best interests of my children, or would have prevented me from being able to provide for them, I chose what was best for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 11:40:37 GMT -5
You guys make me smile at how you are defining "older" mothers.
I had my first child at 23, and my second one at 25. I thought I was an "older" mother!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 11:44:58 GMT -5
It's not a given that every parent puts their child's best interest at heart. Consider yourself fortunate that you've never seen a parent behave in such a way that its very clear the kids are the least important thing in their lives. It's pretty heartbreaking sometimes to be working with these kids.
giramomma, unfortunately I have seen that. I've seen it a lot.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 7, 2014 11:49:23 GMT -5
I'm one of them and don't feel sorry for myself. I'm sure I'm missing lots of things. I'm good with that. Ditto and Ditto. Now, please excuse me while I go plan my next European vacation.
Lol...what does planning a European vacation have to do with having or not having children? My husband and I combined make very good money and usually take at least two big vacations a year. Having kids doesn't mean one is broke.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 11:49:43 GMT -5
I don't give up something I want in order to get or do something else or to help someone.
Sometimes what I want the most, however, is to do something else or to help someone.
Ie. Sacrifice means I really want A, my priority is A, but I do B because of someone else's needs or wants.
Choice means, I'd like A, but B is important to someone else's needs/wants. My priority at the moment is B's needs/wants. They happen to be more important to me at the moment than A, So I choose B. I'm still doing what is most important to me, it's just that that isn't necessarily me at the moment.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 7, 2014 12:49:17 GMT -5
Do you feel sorry for people that don't have kids? Do you think they are missing out on something? 1. No
2. No
I'm one of those child free people.
I think the journey to self actualization is a very personal one. It may or may not involve kids. Regardless, I don't think kids are necessary to be a happy, healthy, content, well rounded adult.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 7, 2014 12:56:25 GMT -5
I didn't have kids until late in life because I didn't meet the guy I wanted to have kids with until I was 33, and didn't get married until I was 35. I'm so glad I didn't have any kids with my prior serious boyfriends--IMO, they didn't have qualities that I would want to reproduce. I kind of wish DH and I had met earlier so that we could have started a few years earlier, but I think it worked out for the best. I don't think that I would have had a lot more energy. I just think I would have gotten fat earlier in my life, and would have struggled with this extra 25-30 pounds for more years. If I had them much younger, I also think I would have resented missing out on some things, whereas now, I've been there, done that, and honestly, it wasn't all that great!
Our European vacation will wait a couple years until the youngest is out of diapers, probably. The last time I've been is 1995, so not going wasn't all due to having kids. Smaller trips are being put off more right now with the kids small, but mostly because I need to be around to help my mom. Yes, kids can be a pita, but they can also make things a lot more fun.
I think having kids is only as selfish as wanting a house and some land of your own. Some people like the micro-houses, while others think a modest home is fine, while still others have these massive 10,000 sf mansions. Most people think a modest home is reasonable. Is a huge mansion? Some might say, yes, if they can afford it. Others look at the carbon footprint and think not. Personally, I think it's natural and reasonable for people to want a modest home to call their own, just like it's natural and reasonable to want a couple kids of your own. I think having kids can contribute to the world, as well as use up resources. One would hope that balance would be a net positive. I guess that would determine whether it's selfish or not, and obviously, there are a lot of other ways to contribute to the world. But, I wouldn't say having kids overall is a selfish act, although it can be done in a selfish manner.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 7, 2014 13:00:15 GMT -5
With the Boy we are in an interesting spot now. He is 16 and very self sufficient. Many of our friends/siblings have much younger kids. Three of my fiends are currently pregnant. I think at my ripe old age of 38 if I had to choose now I'd go the no kids route. I love MY KID but I don't love kids in general. No offense to anyone pregnant now or with young kids but the thought of having an infant at this stage in my life is scary to me. I'm perfectly happy for people with babies but I have never had that baby fever, I need one too thought cross my mind.
I don't get the whole draw to being an older parent. I was 28, 32, and 36 when I had mine. I am NOT more patient now vs when I was younger. I'm less patient now. I had a heck of a lot more disposable income with #1 and #2. I handled all nighters very well in college. In fact, I even thrived on it. Not so much at 37. DH is hoping to go on hiking trips with the kids as they age. He totally sees the advantage of doing a 30+ mile hike when you are in your early 30's vs early or late 40s. I didn't want kids in my 20's and I didn't wanted to be an older parent either. If it wasn't for my husband's debt, we probably would have 3-4 yrs earlier. I am trying not to dwell too much on the fact that THAT age would have been ideal for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 13:05:50 GMT -5
Those who suggest child bearing/raising isn't selfishly motivated, do you suggest it is altruistic?
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jul 7, 2014 13:09:41 GMT -5
Do you feel sorry for people that don't have kids? Do you think they are missing out on something? I'm sure we missed out on: Appointments with the orthodontist. And the dermatologist. Being invited to school for a conference with the Principle. Probably several times. Late nights sitting up long past curfew. Guarding the liquor at parties. Fenders torn off cars. A call or two from the police. Unplanned teeenaged pregnancy. I'm pretty sure I'm OK with missing these experiences.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 7, 2014 13:26:48 GMT -5
I wouldn't feel bad for someone who decided not to have kids. If we're talking about someone who can't conceive obviously that's a different subject. We plan to have kids but tentatively we'll start when I'm in my mid to late 30's which I'm fine with. I can't imagine being responsible for a child yet and there's other things I want to do - travel, make home improvements, save for a bigger place, build up retirement/savings accounts, etc. before taking that step. I've got no problem with proud parents but I don't appreciate some people out there (generally women) who don't believe you when you say you don't want kids yet or act like your life isn't complete because you don't have kids. One of my friends got married a few years back and just had his first kid and his wife is one of those "I'm on this planet to have kids" people. More power to her but don't question the choices of people not on the same path.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 7, 2014 13:40:13 GMT -5
I can't imagine there's any point in my life when I'd want to put up with a teenager's crap. I obviously don't mean that like I don't want kids rather the thought of putting up with it in my 30's, 40's or 50's doesn't have one decade sounding better than the other.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 7, 2014 13:45:17 GMT -5
I don't think childbearing is necessarily altruistic either. It's a natural biological mechanism shared by all life.
I was thinking about what someone said previously about not asking to be born. That is highly dependent upon your personal beliefs. According to my own beliefs, our souls did ask to be born into the circumstances that we were. YMMV, but when you think about it that way, not asking to be born is sort of a cop out. If you did ask to be born, then you are responsible for your life and what you make of it.
I just think that's an interesting way to look at it philosophically.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 7, 2014 13:50:25 GMT -5
I can't imagine there's any point in my life when I'd want to put up with a teenager's crap.
Depends on the teenager. My 16 year old is pretty close to drama free. The biggest drama out of him this summer (granted he was gone for 3 weeks) was when I told him he had to work three days a week for me- he wanted work Tuesday/Wednesday?Thursday so he would always have a 4 day weekend. I needed him to start today which is a Monday because I had things I needed him to do. He shrugged his shoulders and said "Ok" and that was it for drama so far this summer.
I'd rather deal with my teenager than the babies. I'm not a baby person- getting up in the middle of the night, feeding them, poopy diapers, etc. Yuck. No thank you.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 7, 2014 13:54:18 GMT -5
Off tskeeter's list the only thing I've dealt with is the orthodontist appointments. (2 more payments and than I own those $6000 braces out right )
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mcsangel2
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Post by mcsangel2 on Jul 7, 2014 14:04:47 GMT -5
Ditto and Ditto. Now, please excuse me while I go plan my next European vacation.
Lol...what does planning a European vacation have to do with having or not having children? My husband and I combined make very good money and usually take at least two big vacations a year. Having kids doesn't mean one is broke. It quite often does. Glad to hear you have a good income.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 7, 2014 14:05:40 GMT -5
Rukh- Lucky! That damn kid of my his a cross bite and then two (damn genetics) baby molars that don't have adult teeth under them. So they are shorter than their neighbors. I've had to pay $600 a pop twice to build them up so they are the same height as the others. The 18 to 24 month time estimate is way off. 24 months is up next month and they are thinking it'll be closer to Christmas before he gets them off- At the 16 month point they thought he'd get them off at around the 18 to 20 month point. At this point I have no clue when they will be ready to take them off. They "over corrected" him and now he has to wear bands in the opposite direction to un-do the over correction. DS is taking it in stride for the most part but I'm starting to get pretty annoyed with the orthodontist.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jul 7, 2014 14:10:32 GMT -5
I am not the one railing against it either way. I said why does it need to be qualified one way or the other? Soooo, try reading, lol. But your statement is NOT then self serving as well? Maybe you need to Think About it Too! But you have been - since page 1. You can't imagine life without kids - you can't imagine why childless couples choose not to have kids.
You think that childless couples are selfish for thinking only of themselves and the lack of desire to spend 20+ years raising/dealing with kids 24/7 - and having the freedom to do what they want - WHEN they want.
You also said that the 'biological clock' starts screaming and anyone without kids will regret it once it's too late. You said that not wanting to have children was abnormal.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 14:19:13 GMT -5
Those aren't my quotes but if you want to spin them to add things that aren't there, then spin away! Knock yourself out! lol
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