giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 7, 2014 8:36:20 GMT -5
It is maybe too easy now to NOT have children. Would our parents have had the same number of children if they had had access to birth control like we do now? For my families, access to birth control had not much of anything to do with it. And, actually I come from a small family (I'm an only) as do both of my parents (one is an only and the other had one sibling). Even DH's parents didn't have a ton of siblings. I think it's how society has changed that's made a difference. I think it IS easier for folks not to have kids now. Let's face it, most people don't graduate HS, get married, and start a family before they are 20 anymore. If you are a SAHP, you are a failure, lazy, and/or a leech. We are no longer a one income society. We are a society that values work for pay only. I think the older you get, the harder it is to stop and change directions. I could easily see Carl being child-free. because he is so career driven. I don't ever see him slowing down. BIL is career driven, and he's dating a women in her early 40s. I don't think they are having kids. My dept head has two kids about the same age as me, give or take. One is a VP at a major company. The other has her PhD and is working hard. My dept head knows he's not getting grandkids. His kids were focused on their careers. I had a friend who was going through the whole "should I have a kid or not" thing when she hit 39. She noted that in her circle, most of her friends said "Oh, crap, we're 38. If we want kids, we'd best have them soon." One of her friends that DH casually knew ended up two kids, 18 months apart. I think the second one came when the wife was 40 or 41. The amount of resources, now, it takes to raise kids is also more than it was when we were kids. For most families, you went out and played. That was your entertainment. You didn't put your kid in soccer at three so that they could compete with there peers when they hit 10, 11, 12 in age. My son wants to do basketball at school in 5th grade. Nearly all of his friends have been doing basketball since they were 5. They all have 5 years experience, including traveling teams through the Y. We're trying to eek out one year of experience for my DS. Who do you think has the advantage? Clearly not my DS. Plus, starting in 7th grade, the kids get benched...
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 8:36:37 GMT -5
Oped - "If you are not having kids because you yourself desire and prioritize kids above most other things, it's cruel... What other reasons would you have them that wouldn't lead to resentment, bitterness and anger?"
Huh? I still don't get what point you are making.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Jul 7, 2014 8:38:02 GMT -5
Apparently I am having an hypnotic effect! No, far from that.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 8:38:29 GMT -5
Look deep into my eyes.....
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Jul 7, 2014 8:40:47 GMT -5
Well, as much as I have "enjoyed" this, I have to get back to real life. Have a good day .
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 8:45:14 GMT -5
Does your real life involve kids?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 8:46:25 GMT -5
Oped - "If you are not having kids because you yourself desire and prioritize kids above most other things, it's cruel... What other reasons would you have them that wouldn't lead to resentment, bitterness and anger?" Huh? I still don't get what point you are making. People should have children for selfish reasons. Because they themselves desire and prioritize the having and raising of children higher than other things. People should not have children for selfish reasons. Because they themselves desire and prioritize other things over the having and raising of children. It it is when the disconnect occurs, ie. People desire and prioritize other things but still have kids, or prioritize having kids but don't have them... That issues occur like resentment, bitterness, anger. And especially having kids if they aren't your own personal choice and priority is cruel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 8:47:23 GMT -5
I am child-free by choice, for many reasons. For one, I had a pretty fucked up childhood and wasn't sure I could break the cycle and give my children a good, normal life. If I couldn't guarantee that I would be a great parent, I didn't want to risk that I wouldn't. I don't enjoy being around children for large amounts of time. I like my friends' kids, but I can leave them with their mom and dad when we are done playing. And I like my quiet, depressing house. My life is very full. I am active in dog rescue and my DP and I often have an extra furry foster baby here, in addition to our two. I often have meet and greets or transports on the weekends. I have a good career and great friends. DP has two teen and tween children from a previous marriage that come over a couple days a week. They have known me for the majority of their life and we get along fine, but they will never call me mom. They have a great mom already. I'm the bonus non-legal stepmom. Everyone should feel free to choose for themselves. My friends that have children are very happy and are great mothers and live very full, if different, lives. And none of us would trade places with the other. That's fine by us. I think most parents that love their kids try to do the best they can and we still make mistakes. I think every baby should come with a manual that is specific to that individual child. I didn't/don't "like" kids, like how some people love being around kids, any kids. I do like mine though. Little kids are fun imo, after say age 5, not so much. I like my grandkids and hope I still think they're fun when they're older than 5. I also like being able to send them back home with their Momma. But even if your only reason for choosing not to have kids is "I just don't want to, dammit!", that's good enough for me because there's nothing wrong with that. I have much more respect for people that believe that parenting isn't for them (for whatever reason) and make sure they don't become parents, than people that have babies without a second thought and don't even try to be good parents.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 8:52:26 GMT -5
Oh, I see what you are getting at Oped. Thanks for clarifying.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Jul 7, 2014 8:52:54 GMT -5
Oped - "If you are not having kids because you yourself desire and prioritize kids above most other things, it's cruel... What other reasons would you have them that wouldn't lead to resentment, bitterness and anger?" Huh? I still don't get what point you are making. People should have children for selfish reasons. Because they themselves desire and prioritize the having and raising of children higher than other things. People should not have children for selfish reasons. Because they themselves desire and prioritize other things over the having and raising of children. It it is when the disconnect occurs, ie. People desire and prioritize other things but still have kids, or prioritize having kids but don't have them... That issues occur like resentment, bitterness, anger. And especially having kids if they aren't your own personal choice and priority is cruel. Don't bother oped, I think that there is a conscious effort to be obtuse. But fwiw, I understood you the first time. I do applaud your effort though.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Jul 7, 2014 8:53:48 GMT -5
Oh, I see what you are getting at Oped. Thanks for clarifying. Proven wrong! Yeah for shooby!
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 8:55:22 GMT -5
I'm ONE up! Woot!
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 8:55:42 GMT -5
I think my Avatar is having the Facebook Effect on all of you!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 9:02:23 GMT -5
"Oped - Having or not having kids, either decision is selfish. Otherwise it's just cruel." Huh? If you are not having kids because you yourself desire and prioritize kids above most other things, it's cruel... What other reasons would you have them that wouldn't lead to resentment, bitterness and anger? I'm trying to understand this. I had kids because I wasn't careful enough to make sure I didn't have kids, not because I really, really wanted to be a Mom at the time. I didn't think I wanted to have kids, especially not so young. After 2, I made sure there were no more. However, from the moment I found out I was pregnant, my child became my priority. I didn't plan either child and I did sacrifice some of my wants for their needs while I was raising them, but I never resented them or felt bitter and angry towarad them for existing or myself for having them. How is that cruel?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 9:04:42 GMT -5
Oh well now you must be obtuse like me for not immediately understanding the point!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 9:05:30 GMT -5
I missed the clarification. I guess I didn't desire and prioritize much of anything when I got pregnant , so there wasn't a conflict when my children became my priority.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 9:07:52 GMT -5
When you got pregnant you had choices. You decided that having and raising them was most important to you. If it wasn't, then you could have, and probably should have, gone another route, but you decided they were YOUR priority. Nothing cruel there...
The only thing I would argue about is the use of the word sacrifice, but that's probably more a semantics things. I don't personally make sacrifices. I make choices.
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goldensam
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Post by goldensam on Jul 7, 2014 9:15:03 GMT -5
I am child-free by choice, for many reasons. For one, I had a pretty fucked up childhood and wasn't sure I could break the cycle and give my children a good, normal life. If I couldn't guarantee that I would be a great parent, I didn't want to risk that I wouldn't. I don't enjoy being around children for large amounts of time. I like my friends' kids, but I can leave them with their mom and dad when we are done playing. And I like my quiet, depressing house. My life is very full. I am active in dog rescue and my DP and I often have an extra furry foster baby here, in addition to our two. I often have meet and greets or transports on the weekends. I have a good career and great friends. DP has two teen and tween children from a previous marriage that come over a couple days a week. They have known me for the majority of their life and we get along fine, but they will never call me mom. They have a great mom already. I'm the bonus non-legal stepmom. Everyone should feel free to choose for themselves. My friends that have children are very happy and are great mothers and live very full, if different, lives. And none of us would trade places with the other. That's fine by us. I think most parents that love their kids try to do the best they can and we still make mistakes. I think every baby should come with a manual that is specific to that individual child. I didn't/don't "like" kids, like how some people love being around kids, any kids. I do like mine though. Little kids are fun imo, after say age 5, not so much. I like my grandkids and hope I still think they're fun when they're older than 5. I also like being able to send them back home with their Momma. But even if your only reason for choosing not to have kids is "I just don't want to, dammit!", that's good enough for me because there's nothing wrong with that. I have much more respect for people that believe that parenting isn't for them (for whatever reason) and make sure they don't become parents, than people that have babies without a second thought and don't even try to be good parents. I hear you and I agree, for the most part. I was afraid of repeating some pretty bad cycles, though. Not just not being the perfect parent, but I was afraid I would be a resentful parent, bring in abusive men, be abusive myself, or a million other things my sisters and I experienced that I couldn't handle possibly doing to my own kids. It sounds fucked up, but it's true. Part of my decision in the very beginning was based on fear. Now, at 30, I am confident that I could have broken most or all of the cycles I feared, but I've reinforced my choice to be child-free for many other reasons that work for me.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 7, 2014 9:15:24 GMT -5
If you are not having kids because you yourself desire and prioritize kids above most other things, it's cruel... What other reasons would you have them that wouldn't lead to resentment, bitterness and anger? I'm trying to understand this. I had kids because I wasn't careful enough to make sure I didn't have kids, not because I really, really wanted to be a Mom at the time. I didn't think I wanted to have kids, especially not so young. After 2, I made sure there were no more. However, from the moment I found out I was pregnant, my child became my priority. I didn't plan either child and I did sacrifice some of my wants for their needs while I was raising them, but I never resented them or felt bitter and angry towarad them for existing or myself for having them. How is that cruel? Your children are lucky. I work with kids in which it is very clear that their families aren't interested in them and display behaviors that suggest that. There's one family in particular. Two moms (sisters) and I taught the cousins. One mom told her 11 year old daughter point blank that men would ALWAYS come before the child. Then there was the other cousin. At 5 she could not recognize her letters. She was also asked to baby sit her baby brother, as in she was left alone to be the caregiver of a baby. She was 6 at this point. Both of these girls lived with the grandparents more often not. Except the for a long time, grandad was also taking care of his 90 year old mother. He didn't have much of an education. He was in the armed services for a while. I also think he did time in jail. Eventually, the grandparents got tired of taking an interest in these girls. So they gave up. The 11 year old was being groomed to get into the college prep program they have for low income folks in town. Except, she got suspended from school for fighting, so that went down the tubes. I also knew a family where the parents didn't feel it was important enough to keep gas in their car so they could drive their child around. They much preferred that their child walk around by themselves in a questionable neighborhood. (Daytime drug dealings and prostitution) It's not a given that every parent puts their child's best interest at heart. Consider yourself fortunate that you've never seen a parent behave in such a way that its very clear the kids are the least important thing in their lives. It's pretty heartbreaking sometimes to be working with these kids.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 7, 2014 9:33:44 GMT -5
I'm not sorry I had kids and I'm sure not sorry they're gone. But I would have had a much better and happier life without them. This much I know for sure.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 7, 2014 9:36:42 GMT -5
I'm not sorry I had kids and I'm sure not sorry they're gone. But I would have had a much better and happier life without them. This much I know for sure. An honest view.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 7, 2014 9:38:16 GMT -5
The way I see it - to each their own.
I love being a parent to MY KID. Reading some of these other threads have convinced me that I am really only qualified to parent my one kid. That being said- I am seriously looking forward to him going off to college in 2 years. I'll be 41 when he leaves for college and will be moving on to the next chapter of my life. Yes I will still be his mom but I'm not going to sit there twiddling my thumbs between visits from college.
With the Boy we are in an interesting spot now. He is 16 and very self sufficient. Many of our friends/siblings have much younger kids. Three of my fiends are currently pregnant. I think at my ripe old age of 38 if I had to choose now I'd go the no kids route. I love MY KID but I don't love kids in general. No offense to anyone pregnant now or with young kids but the thought of having an infant at this stage in my life is scary to me. I'm perfectly happy for people with babies but I have never had that baby fever, I need one too thought cross my mind.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 9:40:50 GMT -5
"I'm not sorry I had kids and I'm sure not sorry they're gone. But I would have had a much better and happier life without them. This much I know for sure."
How could you possibly really KNOW that? Your life would have taken different twists and turns. But, how could you KNOW you would have been happier?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 7, 2014 9:44:56 GMT -5
With the Boy we are in an interesting spot now. He is 16 and very self sufficient. Many of our friends/siblings have much younger kids. Three of my fiends are currently pregnant. I think at my ripe old age of 38 if I had to choose now I'd go the no kids route. I love MY KID but I don't love kids in general. No offense to anyone pregnant now or with young kids but the thought of having an infant at this stage in my life is scary to me. I'm perfectly happy for people with babies but I have never had that baby fever, I need one too thought cross my mind.
I don't get the whole draw to being an older parent. I was 28, 32, and 36 when I had mine. I am NOT more patient now vs when I was younger. I'm less patient now. I had a heck of a lot more disposable income with #1 and #2. I handled all nighters very well in college. In fact, I even thrived on it. Not so much at 37. DH is hoping to go on hiking trips with the kids as they age. He totally sees the advantage of doing a 30+ mile hike when you are in your early 30's vs early or late 40s.
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mcsangel2
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Post by mcsangel2 on Jul 7, 2014 9:47:05 GMT -5
I'm one of them and don't feel sorry for myself. I'm sure I'm missing lots of things. I'm good with that. Ditto and Ditto. Now, please excuse me while I go plan my next European vacation.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 9:47:51 GMT -5
Sometimes you just get em when you get em. And, you are whatever age you are. However, if you can plan it, then that is something to think about.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jul 7, 2014 9:49:27 GMT -5
With the Boy we are in an interesting spot now. He is 16 and very self sufficient. Many of our friends/siblings have much younger kids. Three of my fiends are currently pregnant. I think at my ripe old age of 38 if I had to choose now I'd go the no kids route. I love MY KID but I don't love kids in general. No offense to anyone pregnant now or with young kids but the thought of having an infant at this stage in my life is scary to me. I'm perfectly happy for people with babies but I have never had that baby fever, I need one too thought cross my mind.
I don't get the whole draw to being an older parent. I was 28, 32, and 36 when I had mine. I am NOT more patient now vs when I was younger. I'm less patient now. I had a heck of a lot more disposable income with #1 and #2. I handled all nighters very well in college. In fact, I even thrived on it. Not so much at 37. DH is hoping to go on hiking trips with the kids as they age. He totally sees the advantage of doing a 30+ mile hike when you are in your early 30's vs early or late 40s. I think a lot of it is because most people tend to be more financially stable when they are in their mid-to-late 30's. At least I didn't even consider having children until I was around 33/34 (and unfortunately by that time it was too late), because I wanted to make sure I was in the best financial position possible. In terms of patience, well I have no idea if I would have been more patient in my early 20's versus now.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 9:50:58 GMT -5
"Ditto and Ditto. Now, please excuse me while I go plan my next European vacation."
Soo, the implication is that people with kids can't go on a European vacation. Soooo, let's stop pretending that making a statement/judgment is somehow "bad". lol
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 9:51:55 GMT -5
I think having kids at about 26 would be ideal to me.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 7, 2014 9:52:54 GMT -5
I also liked that my sons were less than 2 yrs of apart. They are and have always been the best of friends. And, I think having them closer together is easier in some ways because you are in the sippy cup Mode.
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