Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 9:08:35 GMT -5
... I swore I would make enough money myself to be able to live decently. It is the rare male who goes through this process of deciding if they are or aren't going to make enough money themselves to be able to live decently. It is not an option for very many men in our society. No choice is a limitation. You are also commenting to a woman who lived in a different generation than we are living in now. Based on the years and the ages she mentioned, I am guessing she is somewhere around my moms age (my mom is 65). Back then it was the expectation that the husband would support the wife. I come from a large family none of my aunts or older cousins (some of my cousins are my moms age) are professionals. If they worked, it was sporadic and in very low paying jobs That is not the norm anymore. I know many women who are either on par with their husbands earnings or actually the breadwinner (none of the husbands stay home...some just don't make as much money). None of my real life friends are trapped in a marriage because they can't afford to leave. Outside of that one friend, none are financially dependent on a man. You sound very bitter
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 9:09:40 GMT -5
I have not found it to be so. I am sorry you do. If you are in a bad situation, the only recommendation I can make is that you get out, pay what you have to pay and live how you have to live while re-building your life. I did that, worked two jobs and many hours to rebuild. It was entirely worth it to me and have been very happy the last twenty years since the divorce despite having to start from scratch at age 42. But it is your life. You can be miserable or you can be happy. Your call. Victor Frankl said that a man who has a Why to live can bear with any How. I also made the choice to get out of that relationship and paid dearly for it. It was your fault for marrying a woman who couldn't/wouldn't support herself. I would never marry someone who expected me to support them (outside of an actual illness).
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 5, 2014 9:10:25 GMT -5
Yes, when I was very young, back in the early seventies, I was in a marriage(not the one I spoke of above) and pregnant. I had a job, thank god, as I had also seen my mother's dependency, though it was a low paying one. When end my then-husband pushed me down steps when I was six months along, I left. I was homeless for a while, but shudder to think how much worse it would have been had I not had some money coming it. I swore I would make enough money myself to be able to live decently. Kudos to you for doing what you had to do to protect yourself and your baby. Thank you.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 5, 2014 9:12:21 GMT -5
I have not found it to be so. I am sorry you do. If you are in a bad situation, the only recommendation I can make is that you get out, pay what you have to pay and live how you have to live while re-building your life. I did that, worked two jobs and many hours to rebuild. It was entirely worth it to me and have been very happy the last twenty years since the divorce despite having to start from scratch at age 42. But it is your life. You can be miserable or you can be happy. Your call. Victor Frankl said that a man who has a Why to live can bear with any How. I also made the choice to get out of that relationship and paid dearly for it. You pays your money and you makes yer choice. I paid dearly financially for my choice, too. Totally worth the money for me.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 5, 2014 9:15:54 GMT -5
... I swore I would make enough money myself to be able to live decently. It is the rare male who goes through this process of deciding if they are or aren't going to make enough money themselves to be able to live decently. It is not an option for very many men in our society. No choice is a limitation. Considering how many more sahd's there are these days I don't believe this is the case. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 9:19:25 GMT -5
It is the rare male who goes through this process of deciding if they are or aren't going to make enough money themselves to be able to live decently. It is not an option for very many men in our society. No choice is a limitation. You are also commenting to a woman who lived in a different generation than we are living in now. Based on the years and the ages she mentioned, I am guessing she is somewhere around my moms age (my mom is 65). Back then it was the expectation that the husband would support the wife. I come from a large family none of my aunts or older cousins (some of my cousins are my moms age) are professionals. If they worked, it was sporadic and in very low paying jobs That is not the norm anymore. I know many women who are either on par with their husbands earnings or actually the breadwinner (none of the husbands stay home...some just don't make as much money). None of my real life friends are trapped in a marriage because they can't afford to leave. Outside of that one friend, none are financially dependent on a man. You sound very bitter I am of that generation also. I do think that we have come a long way in equalizing the demands placed on each gender in our society. I do believe that women's "lib" has been a wonderful thing. I am just a proponent of men's "lib" also. And I am bitter about the little acknowledged socialization process that I had to endure as a male in our society.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 9:20:06 GMT -5
I also made the choice to get out of that relationship and paid dearly for it. It was your fault for marrying a woman who couldn't/wouldn't support herself. I would never marry someone who expected me to support them (outside of an actual illness). Blame the victim?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 5, 2014 9:24:15 GMT -5
I'm amazed that there are actually women who still depend on a man for a paycheck. My grandma didnt even do that and it's because of her that my grandparents were finally able to get out of being dirt poor to middle class. She was born in 1915. There are areas and I live in one now where there's SAHP. It shocks and amazes me still. I somewhat get it if you have a slew of children under the age of 5 where daycare would be a bitch. This is why mine are so far apart in age but after they get to elementary school? No way would I ever support a grown adult for more than a temporary basis.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 9:29:12 GMT -5
It was your fault for marrying a woman who couldn't/wouldn't support herself. I would never marry someone who expected me to support them (outside of an actual illness). Blame the victim? You weren't a victim when you willingly chose a spouse that you had to support. In your eyes you became a victim when you no longer wanted to support her. I say you are at fault because I would never willingly marry someone (or stay married to them) if they expected me to financially support them. You chose your spouse knowing that you would be the breadwinner. You have to own that choice.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 9:31:45 GMT -5
You are also commenting to a woman who lived in a different generation than we are living in now. Based on the years and the ages she mentioned, I am guessing she is somewhere around my moms age (my mom is 65). Back then it was the expectation that the husband would support the wife. I come from a large family none of my aunts or older cousins (some of my cousins are my moms age) are professionals. If they worked, it was sporadic and in very low paying jobs That is not the norm anymore. I know many women who are either on par with their husbands earnings or actually the breadwinner (none of the husbands stay home...some just don't make as much money). None of my real life friends are trapped in a marriage because they can't afford to leave. Outside of that one friend, none are financially dependent on a man. You sound very bitter I am of that generation also. I do think that we have come a long way in equalizing the demands placed on each gender in our society. I do believe that women's "lib" has been a wonderful thing. I am just a proponent of men's "lib" also. And I am bitter about the little acknowledged socialization process that I had to endure as a male in our society. I guess I don't understand what you mean by "men's lib". Society doesn't force a man to marry a woman who either doesn't want to work or wants to work in a low paying profession (still making her dependent in the man). We all have free choice to marry or not to marry. If you marry a woman who doesn't want to work and you accept that, you can't claim to be a victim years later when you no longer love her
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 9:37:36 GMT -5
It is the rare male who goes through this process of deciding if they are or aren't going to make enough money themselves to be able to live decently. It is not an option for very many men in our society. No choice is a limitation. Considering how many more sahd's there are these days I don't believe this is the case. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards The Census Bureau finds that about 3.5 percent of stay-at-home parents are fathers, though that's doubled in a decade. ... www.npr.org/2013/05/15/180300236/stay-at-home-dads-breadwinner-moms-and-making-it-all-work The number of stay at home dad's is increasing. Let's do a comparison: Nov 20, 2012 - When the new Congress is sworn in next January, women will occupy 19 percent of its seats, a record number in both the House and Senate. www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/11/19-percent-congress-women-why-not-half That is almost six times as many as the percentage of stay at home dads.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 9:41:54 GMT -5
I am of that generation also. I do think that we have come a long way in equalizing the demands placed on each gender in our society. I do believe that women's "lib" has been a wonderful thing. I am just a proponent of men's "lib" also. And I am bitter about the little acknowledged socialization process that I had to endure as a male in our society. I guess I don't understand what you mean by "men's lib". Society doesn't force a man to marry a woman who either doesn't want to work or wants to work in a low paying profession (still making her dependent in the man). We all have free choice to marry or not to marry. If you marry a woman who doesn't want to work and you accept that, you can't claim to be a victim years later when you no longer love her Socialization (also spelled socialisation) is a term used by sociologists, social psychologists, anthropologists, political scientists and educationalists to refer to the lifelong process of inheriting and disseminating norms, customs and ideologies, providing an individual with the skills and habits necessary for participating within his or her own society. Socialization is thus ‘the means by which social and cultural continuity are attained’.[1][2] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization Maybe you don't believe this happens?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 9:45:47 GMT -5
I guess I don't understand what you mean by "men's lib". Society doesn't force a man to marry a woman who either doesn't want to work or wants to work in a low paying profession (still making her dependent in the man). We all have free choice to marry or not to marry. If you marry a woman who doesn't want to work and you accept that, you can't claim to be a victim years later when you no longer love her Socialization (also spelled socialisation) is a term used by sociologists, social psychologists, anthropologists, political scientists and educationalists to refer to the lifelong process of inheriting and disseminating norms, customs and ideologies, providing an individual with the skills and habits necessary for participating within his or her own society. Socialization is thus ‘the means by which social and cultural continuity are attained’.[1][2] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization Maybe you don't believe this happens? I guess I am just different than you. I don't ever consider myself a victim. I might look back and regret decisions that I made. I am to strong and too smart to ever consider myself a victim because of my own choices. The fact is you knowingly and willingly supported a woman that you loved until you no longer loved her....then you resented it. That doesn't make you a victim. It makes you someone who regretted supporting her in the first place.
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whoami
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Post by whoami on Jul 5, 2014 9:47:39 GMT -5
Reading this thread should make every man run from a woman who wants to be supported durin their marriage. I realize that no one thinks their marriage will end but statistically almost have do...marriage is a crap shot I've ways said that women were foolish to be dependent on a man for support. Now I'm realizing men are just stupid for financially supporting a woman. I can't imagine divorcing and having to support my ex. I think I might plot his death at that point She will find out (in the not so distant future I suspect), just how foolish she has been. Judges are barely sympathetic to custodial parents stuck with deadbeats who dont pay child support to take care of people who are *incapable of taking care of themselves.....why anyone thinks the "wrath of the judge shall fall upon the ex" if he misses one payment of alimony for a functional adult who can get a job (even a shitty minimum wage one) is beyond me. Its pretty clear to me that some people have never been through the family court system on this board..... Getting a court date takes months.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 10:00:14 GMT -5
Why ask this question?
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 5, 2014 10:01:55 GMT -5
It is the rare male who goes through this process of deciding if they are or aren't going to make enough money themselves to be able to live decently. It is not an option for very many men in our society. No choice is a limitation. You are also commenting to a woman who lived in a different generation than we are living in now. Based on the years and the ages she mentioned, I am guessing she is somewhere around my moms age (my mom is 65). Back then it was the expectation that the husband would support the wife. I come from a large family none of my aunts or older cousins (some of my cousins are my moms age) are professionals. If they worked, it was sporadic and in very low paying jobs That is not the norm anymore. I know many women who are either on par with their husbands earnings or actually the breadwinner (none of the husbands stay home...some just don't make as much money). None of my real life friends are trapped in a marriage because they can't afford to leave. Outside of that one friend, none are financially dependent on a man. You sound very bitter I am 62. Back then, I don't know how it is now, it was the men in my life who encouraged me or tried to force me to be dependent: my father/FIL who did not believe (married)women should work drive or handle money; my father who encouraged his sons to go to college and helped them financially to do so but wouldn't me because (in his own words) I was a girl and it would be wasted money. My father, who when I was pregnant and left my husband who pushed me down the steps refused to even give me a place to stay temporarily because I had left my husband--he said I made my bed and had to lie in it. The priest who counseled me to go home to my husband and try not to provoke him. (That was the end of my being a Catholic). I wanted to work as an electrician's helper when I was in high school, but, of course, the foreman wouldn't hire a female back then, so I had to take a much lower paying waitress job. But they hired my brother. I am sorry if I do not seem more sympathetic to the male socialization but my life experience, and I know others had different ones, was that the males were helped and encouraged while the women were intentionally crippled. For someone like me, who always wanted to work--I worked two part time jobs even in high school--it was an uphill battle to get an education, to even learn to drive, to get a car. I know it is difficult to pay spousal and child support. I have been there, done that. But it is absolutely terrifying to not be able to put a decent roof over one's head. When I did have my first baby, I still did not drive. I had to breast feed because I couldn't afford formula, I walked everywhere carrying the baby--even to the laundrymat, carrying clothes in the other hand. The only place I could eventually afford was a small room, that really should have been condemned--I had to turn on the gas burners on the stove to heat the place and wake up in the middle of the night to shoo away roaches from the crib. I was twenty. I will gladly stick to being well enough paid to be a primary breadwinner or to pay spousal support/child support in the event of divorce. I never want to live again like I had to after my first child was born. I suppose, nowadays, there are more social supports in place, so that may not happen--but perhaps it was better in the long run not to have had any, as it was great motivation to improve myself. The father of my first child never paid one penny of support ever. I often wonder if the social programs aren't facilitating more dependency than not.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 10:28:51 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 10:37:58 GMT -5
Scott Peck wrote in one of his books how he had a counseling group of men who talked crudely of what they made prostitutes do to them and was disgusted by the way they treated women. Then later he had a counseling group of female prostitutes who talked about how easy it was to get men to empty their wallets for a few quick sexual tricks. Who are the victims and who are the exploiters? Always a good question. Good point...but I would look at it like this. I've been married for 20 years. If I supported my spouse for 20 years I would think he would be greatful that he didn't have to work for 20 years. Not greedy and come after me for 20 more years of support But if you asked the spouse to stay home, take care of kids because you both felt that was best for family, support your corporate travel and entertaining schedule, maintain all of the household needs so you could focus on your career; aren't you building that career together? I wish I had a supportive spouse because I would have made it to CEO with that kind of arrangement At the very high earning levels there is a significant commitment to the company & I don't think you can get there unless you are single or have a SAHP arrangement with a spouse or an alternate (like a proper nanny arrangement). I think it comes down to what each couple wants to agree to. I don't choose to be non working spouse, I prefer career track; but I can still respect those that make a different choice. If you ask your spouse to fill the at home role for you I think you should expect to pay to support them for as long as you had that arrangement.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 10:54:40 GMT -5
Good point...but I would look at it like this. I've been married for 20 years. If I supported my spouse for 20 years I would think he would be greatful that he didn't have to work for 20 years. Not greedy and come after me for 20 more years of support But if you asked the spouse to stay home, take care of kids because you both felt that was best for family, support your corporate travel and entertaining schedule, maintain all of the household needs so you could focus on your career; aren't you building that career together? I wish I had a supportive spouse because I would have made it to CEO with that kind of arrangement At the very high earning levels there is a significant commitment to the company & I don't think you can get there unless you are single or have a SAHP arrangement with a spouse or an alternate (like a proper nanny arrangement). I think it comes down to what each couple wants to agree to. I don't choose to be non working spouse, I prefer career track; but I can still respect those that make a different choice. If you ask your spouse to fill the at home role for you I think you should expect to pay to support them for as long as you had that arrangement. And I disagree. If my marriage were to dissolve tomorrow, I would not believe I should have to continue supporting myself any further. I think both sides are foolish for ever wanting an arrangement like that. A woman because she is stuck and a man, because he will be stuck supporting the woman if he is in one of the two percent of marriages that fall apart. Look how bitter some of the posters are in this thread. I'm sure they weren't bitter when they were happily married....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 11:01:41 GMT -5
Nutty: have you consulted with a lawyer? A lot of your demands sounds outrageous and I doubt you could actually get that.
Alimony for 23 years and 100% of retirement accounts - LOL REALLY!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 11:18:43 GMT -5
Nutty: have you consulted with a lawyer? A lot of your demands sounds outrageous and I doubt you could actually get that. Alimony for 23 years and 100% of retirement accounts - LOL REALLY!!! He offered her 23 years of alimony and 25% of retirement at retirement. People are saying take 100% of retirement now and let him have 100% of the house, but my guess is this isn't a fair deal.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 11:23:03 GMT -5
Nutty: have you consulted with a lawyer? A lot of your demands sounds outrageous and I doubt you could actually get that. Alimony for 23 years and 100% of retirement accounts - LOL REALLY!!! He offered her 23 years of alimony and 25% of retirement at retirement. People are saying take 100% of retirement now and let him have 100% of the house, but my guess is this isn't a fair deal. He is a sap if he is offering 23 years of alimony...that is crazy!
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 5, 2014 11:25:59 GMT -5
Does it really sound to you as if either one is a prize?
On the other hand, this is a prime demonstration of the old saying why divorce is so expensive....
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 5, 2014 11:49:32 GMT -5
Nutty: have you consulted with a lawyer? A lot of your demands sounds outrageous and I doubt you could actually get that. Alimony for 23 years and 100% of retirement accounts - LOL REALLY!!! He offered her 23 years of alimony and 25% of retirement at retirement. People are saying take 100% of retirement now and let him have 100% of the house, but my guess is this isn't a fair deal. My guess is it isn't fair either. For all we know he's borrowed against his retirement now, which is why he wants to settle on it later. If she's willing to wait to later on the retirement money, I'd suggest 25% of the retirement account or a the value of 50% of it now, which ever is greater.
Cashing out retirement money at their ages is a guaranteed 20% loss I believe. I don't think divorce is one of the protected statuses per IRS tax rules.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 5, 2014 12:03:38 GMT -5
Not sure what you mean, but my understanding is that with a properly executed QDRO the money is taxed when withdrawn by the alternate payee but there is no penalty for an early distribution.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 5, 2014 12:14:23 GMT -5
He offered her 23 years of alimony and 25% of retirement at retirement. People are saying take 100% of retirement now and let him have 100% of the house, but my guess is this isn't a fair deal. My guess is it isn't fair either. For all we know he's borrowed against his retirement now, which is why he wants to settle on it later. If she's willing to wait to later on the retirement money, I'd suggest 25% of the retirement account or a the value of 50% of it now, which ever is greater.
Cashing out retirement money at their ages is a guaranteed 20% loss I believe. I don't think divorce is one of the protected statuses per IRS tax rules.
It is, retirement money can be split in a divorce without penalty as long as it goes from retirement account to retirement account. The is, from a 401k to an IRA.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 5, 2014 12:25:56 GMT -5
Far be it for me to argue that there isn't gender inequality. As the somewhat resentful, trapped feeling, breadwinning spouse, I even get what you're saying about being limited in your perceived role. The women's lib movement will have been successful when men and women can choose their own path which I believe is already happening. What I can't agree with though is the idea that male privilege is a burden. That you were born and raised knowing you were capable of and expected to take charge of your own life isn't limiting, it is privilege. You didn't consider staying home an option though-why? Was your wife as equally educated as you and equally career motivated? Did those things change during your relationship? Or did you play a part in wanting a sahw/m and then get frustrated when alimony came into the picture? Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 13:23:19 GMT -5
Far be it for me to argue that there isn't gender inequality. As the somewhat resentful, trapped feeling, breadwinning spouse, I even get what you're saying about being limited in your perceived role. The women's lib movement will have been successful when men and women can choose their own path which I believe is already happening. What I can't agree with though is the idea that male privilege is a burden. That you were born and raised knowing you were capable of and expected to take charge of your own life isn't limiting, it is privilege. You didn't consider staying home an option though-why? Was your wife as equally educated as you and equally career motivated? Did those things change during your relationship? Or did you play a part in wanting a sahw/m and then get frustrated when alimony came into the picture? Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards We were equally educated at the time of the marriage. When we divorced, my wife was one up on me in the degree department. We have leap-frogged since with her once again one up. Since I have always had zero career motivation, I certainly couldn't be "more" career motivated. She was never a SAHM. Neither of us paid alimony to the other. I didn't consider staying at home because the military police tended to frown on it (I joined the military as we were in the process of getting married - I instead of her because they weren't taking pregnant women at the time). It was very shortly after I got out of the service that we separated. Male privilege is a double edged sword, as the statistics I cited indicate. Those statistics show the positive side of not having male privilege. Things are changing. There has been good economic progress made on the part of women. The life expectancy gap is closing. Women are among those fighting and dying for our country. However, there is still work to be done. For example, 83% of mothers receive custody of their children in divorces. everydayfeminism.com/2013/08/bias-against-fathers/ When SAHDs and custody for fathers approach something closer to fifty percent, I would be more ready to say we are "there". (I would also include something much closer to 50% females in Congress and CEO offices.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 13:37:52 GMT -5
He offered her 23 years of alimony and 25% of retirement at retirement. People are saying take 100% of retirement now and let him have 100% of the house, but my guess is this isn't a fair deal. He is a sap if he is offering 23 years of alimony...that is crazy! No, pretty smart I think. He'll put that into the agreement knowing that he can have it overturned later. Nutty will agree to less assets now in return for 23 years alimony. Later he'll go back and say that was unreasonable. The court doesn't re-do a property settlement, but they will re-do alimony or child support. She absolutely can get 75%+ of the current assets. His ability to out earn her by 10X-20X is a huge factor in how they will split assets. I have seen this done in numerous long term marriage dissolutions.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 5, 2014 13:37:55 GMT -5
What I can't agree with though is the idea that male privilege is a burden. I saw a piece of a comedian's sketch that very quickly outlined some of the basic differences that are just part of a woman's life but which men aren't even aware of. The comedian (a guy) explained that when men go on a date with someone they meet online, their biggest fear is that the woman will show up and be fatter than she claims on her profile. When women go on a date to meet a stranger, their biggest fear is that the stranger might kill them.
Men: Hope she's not an uggo. Women: Hope my head is still attached at the end of the night.
There definitely has been huge progress with gender equality, but there are still so many basic differences that impact the way that both sexes think and react that it's tough to imagine things will ever be truly 50/50. And maybe that's fine, don't know. I just know that there are many things that greatly impact how women and men have to navigate the world differently, it's not just about who gets what degree or salary.
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