Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jun 9, 2014 17:59:46 GMT -5
You think that's the way grown-ups behave, do you? Tragedy is.....it didn't have to be that way....at all. I just wonder how many men have broken off contact with their children because their children's mother has made things impossible. I saw a whole different side to the argument. I don't think she is saying that the Ex should be acting like that or that the way she is acting is how adults act. The question is, if the ex can't behave like an adult/civilized human being, why would a parent give up on their children? Yes, it sucks that you have to deal with someon who is crazy and irrational BUT the children are also dealing with that. They deserve better than to have their parent give up on them and walk away because the other parent is irrational. It is more convenient for the one walking away but the kids then know that their parent didn't care enough about them to fight to see them, have a lunatic as a role model (That's healthy! ), and are stuck with a bunch of garbage that they didn't create.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 9, 2014 18:02:13 GMT -5
It's not always as black and white as some would like it to be.
I've posted before about the close family friend with the messy divorce/custody situation.
Now the mother is blaming her ex (our friend) for everything such as - you can't join X because your father won't let you attend all practices... (He gets visitation for one weekend a month during the school year and six weeks during the summer and alternate holiday weekends. He drives over three hours each way to visit with or pick them up because she won't meet him halfway)
Or - "If your father cared more about you he wouldn't have moved so far away" (The plant where he worked shut down. It was either move to keep a job or be laid off with hundreds of other people and be unable to pay child support or support himself).
Or the best yet - "Your father told me to stop taking you to the doctor". Umm, no - he had to take her to court to get her to stop using the ER as a primary care center and take the kids to a regular doctor since she's unemployed and he was ordered to pay all medical premiums and deductibles (out of network since the kids live in another state).
All of this was basically screamed at him by his son during a visit where the son said he hated him and didn't want to see him anymore.
Fortunately the daughter see's what is going on but the boy won't hear any reason from anyone because he's a kid and his life sucks and it has to be someone's fault, right?
DH and I only catch a little bit of it but it has to be draining and exhausting. We've watched our friend fight for his kids for over 7 years now and he won't give up. But it is costing him a lot in legal fees, time, and energy.
His ex is not a monster, she just want's the kid's dad out of their life 100%, thinks she has the right to make that unilateral decision, and will do whatever to make that happen. He loves his kids but I can see where everyone's lives would be easier if he gave up the (constant) struggle.
So they could have a relatively calm childhood without him, or one that includes him but is full of arguments, court dates, accusations, meetings with family advocates, etc. They now spend their visits knowing that if they get a bruise or cut they will get the 9th degree from the mom and called a liar if they say nothing happened.
Like he said to us - Their lives would actually be easier if I just gave up, and THAT is what is wrong with our system.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 18:05:53 GMT -5
And when they disappear, THAt is when they live up to all the names they have been called.
Opposite here. Mom was relegated to weekend parent and dealt with all the shit from dad and wife of the year... (Mostly the one b%*#h stepmother) ... They were often horrible... But she showed up. Every time, did everything she could.
Believe me, as an adult, I've know who my true parent was... The one who gave it all... The one I want to be like...
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jun 9, 2014 18:06:10 GMT -5
Captain, I understand why he thinks that but he shouldn't give up hope. Would the kids lives be "better" if he gave up? No, not really. They would have less court dates, going back and forth, etc but the kids would always have the feeling that dad didn't care enough. What your friend should do it document everything mom is doing/saying and press for custody. He shouldn't be held hostage by her insane issues so the ids may be better off with him. Eventually, they should be old enough to speak for themselves as well...
ETA: His ex may not be a monster but she certainly is a bad mother. Any mother who fills their kid's heads with lies and garbage about their father is NOT A GOOD MOTHER. It doesn't matter if she cooks dinner every night and always tucks them in; the fact that she can't see what damage she is doing to her children with her lies makes her a BAD MOTHER.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 9, 2014 18:15:51 GMT -5
Not true. Its terrible to love your kids and not be able to see them. Like I said. I've been on the other end of a bucket load of vitriol..........and no-one... but no-one has the right to treat me like that.
Yes and her bad behaviour has lost her her son. (He lives with me, his stepmom) Though I do keep trying to smooth things over between them.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2014 18:18:06 GMT -5
You think that's the way grown-ups behave, do you? Tragedy is.....it didn't have to be that way....at all. I just wonder how many men have broken off contact with their children because their children's mother has made things impossible. I saw a whole different side to the argument. I would have had them both as kids but it didn't happen....though as soon as the youngest turned 18, he came here. Of course grown ups shouldn't act that way but a child shouldn't suffer because their mother can't behave herself properly. I will never buy the "the ex was horrible" argument so it is ok to walk out of the kids life. There is. I thing I wouldn't do for my kids and hat includes putting up with whatever I had to from an ex.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2014 18:20:23 GMT -5
Not true. Its terrible to love your kids and not be able to see them. Like I said. I've been on the other end of a bucket load of vitriol..........and no-one... but no-one has the right to treat me like that. Agreed. But so what? She was an ass? Because of that the father dumped the kids. That is just heart breaking. I'm sorry that you can't understand that. Don't we teach kids "sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me"? Maybe your step kids are more forgiving than me. If my dad walked out in me I would be done
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 9, 2014 18:26:02 GMT -5
...and from the point of view of a person who meets a man....falls in love....sets up home with him........realises they are soul mates.......marries him?
From his wife...his partner... his lover.
What did I do wrong?
I didn't deserve the kicking I got from his ex.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 18:29:01 GMT -5
You don't commit to a man/woman unless you can commit to their children. So, the kid gets asked why he grew up without his father and the answer is that some adults couldn't handle being called names...
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 9, 2014 18:36:14 GMT -5
Yes on the face of it.......but its not that simple.
Sometimes its just impossible.....and our situation was terrible.
I'm just trying to point out that there is another side to the argument.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2014 18:36:42 GMT -5
...and from the point of view of a person who meets a man....falls in love....sets up home with him........realises they are soul mates.......marries him? From his wife...his partner... his lover. What did I do wrong? I didn't deserve the kicking I got from his ex. But the kids deserve the kicking they got from their father? You are an adult who is capable of some bad words. Kids shouldn't be abandoned because the new wife can't out up with the crazy ex
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2014 18:37:12 GMT -5
Yes on the face of it.......but its not that simple. Sometimes its just impossible.....and our situation was terrible. I'm just trying to point out that there is another side to the argument. We will still have to agree to disagree.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 18:39:38 GMT -5
I'm sure my mother could make it (the other side of the argument). It still didn't stop her from showing up. And I can't imagine what my life would have been like without her influence. And as an adult, she is the parent I emulate, the parent I am closest to.
I'm sure it wasn't fun. I'm sure it wasn't easy. I'm sure it pissed her off and made her sad And I am damn sure she never deserved a bit of it.
But she did it for me. And I, am eternally grateful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 18:46:09 GMT -5
Yes on the face of it.......but its not that simple. Sometimes its just impossible.....and our situation was terrible. I'm just trying to point out that there is another side to the argument. Give it up, Spellbound. There are some issues that people see as black/white. Abortion is an issue like that. This is another one.
I grew up without parents. My father "abandoned" us when I was five: he committed suicide. My mother "abandoned" us when I was eight or nine: she was mentally ill. I never saw her again, never received a birthday card, etc. I found out she died when a social worker called. My sister and I bought her monument.
I didn't grow up with all this anger and resentment that many of you guys did. I did have a certain wistfulness for a home where you lived in for more than a few years (lived with multiple relatives) and a backstory that didn't make people wince. But I never hated either of my parents for abandonment. My mother could have sent a card, you know. That's not the same thing as taking care of kids when she wasn't able. But I didn't grow up hating her because she didn't. When I think of her, I still think of her as if I was a child. She tried to do the right thing. She didn't come back like she promised, but we all know as adults that some promises can't be kept.
You guys who are still so angry have my true sympathy. I know it hurt, and I wish I knew the words to make it not.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 9, 2014 18:46:17 GMT -5
The kids were let down by their mothers dreadful behaviour.
That's why they came here.....the door was open for them and its a much more peaceful household.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 18:49:17 GMT -5
Who is angry?
Its just sad that kids had to wait till they were 18, living with crazy bitch mom and no support from dad because it was easier for him to walk away... When the kids didn't have that luxury yet...
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 9, 2014 18:49:55 GMT -5
I know that. I know its personal for some... and I know it hurts.
but whether you can accept it or not...there are many shades of grey. We also got hurt.......and as far as I can see... it was unnecessary.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 9, 2014 18:51:48 GMT -5
Yes on the face of it.......but its not that simple. Sometimes its just impossible.....and our situation was terrible. I'm just trying to point out that there is another side to the argument. Give it up, Spellbound. There are some issues that people see as black/white. Abortion is an issue like that. This is another one.
I grew up without parents. My father "abandoned" us when I was five: he committed suicide. My mother "abandoned" us when I was eight or nine: she was mentally ill. I never saw her again, never received a birthday card, etc. I found out she died when a social worker called. My sister and I bought her monument.
I didn't grow up with all this anger and resentment that many of you guys did. I did have a certain wistfulness for a home where you lived in for more than a few years (lived with multiple relatives) and a backstory that didn't make people wince. But I never hated either of my parents for abandonment. My mother could have sent a card, you know. That's not the same thing as taking care of kids when she wasn't able. But I didn't grow up hating her because she didn't. When I think of her, I still think of her as if I was a child. She tried to do the right thing. She didn't come back like she promised, but we all know as adults that some promises can't be kept.
You guys who are still so angry have my true sympathy. I know it hurt, and I wish I knew the words to make it not.
I agree, there is a LOT of pain and anger in this thread . Big hugs to all of you. I was only the third party to a huge, nasty custody battle (nephew on DH's side), and even WE were subjected to sh*t (accused of obstructing visitation when we picked him up and delivered him to his grandparents at his father's request - the ex HATED my IL's. On a family vacation I was accused of "undermining (their) parental authority" because I bought him ice cream. Etc etc etc - it went on for YEARS.) I was only third-party collateral damage, but it still hurt. I can only imagine how those of you "in the thick of it" feel. More big hugs and love going out . . . I wish I could say something to help too.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jun 9, 2014 19:02:30 GMT -5
Susana, it isn't like that. I think (I hope) we all know people who shouldn't be parents. In their case, it is actually beneficial for them to give up their children. They probably shouldn't have children to begin with. My argument is that if you are the sane one and you truly believe that the custodial parent is a lunatic/unstable/etc, it is YOUR JOB as a parent to not give up on that child and to fight for that child. It is a failing as a parent to just "quit your kid" because the other parent is nuts. You picked the other parent and the child is the innocent one. It's your job to maintain that relationship, even if it is hard because of mom/dad's new BF/GF/Spouse, etc.
Full disclosure: My mom committed suicide when I was 3. She was an alcoholic with untreated mental issues. Am I mad at her for committing suicide? No. I know that she was in a lot of pain and, given mental health and addiction treatment at that time, her issues would have continued. She would have continued to suffer and my sister and I would have had all kinds of drama. By committing suicide, she was trying to do an act of love and I don't hold that against her. I got a terrific stepmom (She is my mom) and a stable place to grow and thrive. But, had my dad left me & sis with her because it was easier for him, we would have been neglected and had a horrible life. He didn't quit because it was "easier" for him to move on with another family. He got us out of that situation because he loved us and knew that we deserved better. (She committed suicide after he married DSM and we had moved in with him and DSM. No, they weren't having an affair and DSM wasn't the reason for mom & dad's breakup).
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Jun 9, 2014 19:06:24 GMT -5
Yes on the face of it.......but its not that simple. Sometimes its just impossible.....and our situation was terrible. I'm just trying to point out that there is another side to the argument. Give it up, Spellbound. There are some issues that people see as black/white. Abortion is an issue like that. This is another one.
I grew up without parents. My father "abandoned" us when I was five: he committed suicide. My mother "abandoned" us when I was eight or nine: she was mentally ill. I never saw her again, never received a birthday card, etc. I found out she died when a social worker called. My sister and I bought her monument.
I didn't grow up with all this anger and resentment that many of you guys did. I did have a certain wistfulness for a home where you lived in for more than a few years (lived with multiple relatives) and a backstory that didn't make people wince. But I never hated either of my parents for abandonment. My mother could have sent a card, you know. That's not the same thing as taking care of kids when she wasn't able. But I didn't grow up hating her because she didn't. When I think of her, I still think of her as if I was a child. She tried to do the right thing. She didn't come back like she promised, but we all know as adults that some promises can't be kept.
You guys who are still so angry have my true sympathy. I know it hurt, and I wish I knew the words to make it not.
But seriously, even as a child I hope that you realized that your parents didn't abandon you in the traditional sense. It can feel like an abandonment, but abandonment like debthaven's ex abandonment of their daughter is a completely different animal. And I can't understand why you can't understand anger for that kind of abandonment. I certainly don't want to make light of your tragic past but a father and mother who were mentally ill and couldn't take of you is not the same thing.( I understand your father committed suicide, but he probably had some issues). Because the child would externalize the reasons for abandonment in yhe case of physical and mental health issues buy internalize it if the parents were alive and well with a new family.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2014 19:10:00 GMT -5
Yes on the face of it.......but its not that simple. Sometimes its just impossible.....and our situation was terrible. I'm just trying to point out that there is another side to the argument. Give it up, Spellbound. There are some issues that people see as black/white. Abortion is an issue like that. This is another one.
I grew up without parents. My father "abandoned" us when I was five: he committed suicide. My mother "abandoned" us when I was eight or nine: she was mentally ill. I never saw her again, never received a birthday card, etc. I found out she died when a social worker called. My sister and I bought her monument.
I didn't grow up with all this anger and resentment that many of you guys did. I did have a certain wistfulness for a home where you lived in for more than a few years (lived with multiple relatives) and a backstory that didn't make people wince. But I never hated either of my parents for abandonment. My mother could have sent a card, you know. That's not the same thing as taking care of kids when she wasn't able. But I didn't grow up hating her because she didn't. When I think of her, I still think of her as if I was a child. She tried to do the right thing. She didn't come back like she promised, but we all know as adults that some promises can't be kept.
You guys who are still so angry have my true sympathy. I know it hurt, and I wish I knew the words to make it not.
You had two mentally ill parents. That is different and even I could probably get last that . I could never get last my father walking out of my life because he new wife didn't want the drama. I would never forgive him for that. Luckily my dad loved me more than that and didn't out up with his wife's bullshit. I'm so glad I had the dad I had.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 9, 2014 19:10:26 GMT -5
For those of you still grieving for what should have been and wasn't, I'm really sorry. There's nothing I can say, or do to erase the pain you feel.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jun 9, 2014 20:40:23 GMT -5
My bio dad pretty much bailed on being a father. I am OK with that. I don't think it makes him a bad person, just a shitty father. He is not someone I consider family... But not someone I consider a villain.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 20:49:53 GMT -5
Because of what i went through, i could write a novel on this stuff. However, it doesn't change that there is no excuse in the world for leaving your kids unless you are dead! I don't care if your ex is a crazy maniac, in fact, that is all more reason not to abandon. Justifying in your head one way or the other doesn't make it okay, EVER.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jun 9, 2014 23:12:36 GMT -5
My bio dad pretty much bailed on being a father. I am OK with that. I don't think it makes him a bad person, just a shitty father. He is not someone I consider family... But not someone I consider a villain.
I can relate to this statement completely. Parents divorced when I was 4 and bro was 7. From then on mom had nothing good to say about him or his family. As an adult I was able to break away from mom a bit and have a sporadic relationship with dad.
All of this happened 'yesterday' and there is nothing I can do about it now.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jun 10, 2014 6:28:00 GMT -5
There is no reason for a good parent to bail on their kids. Specially over a shitty ex. That means you should just fight harder for them. You can't handle them for your sanity, but figures your kids should be able to handle them . I just don't get that, me an adult with adult logic, reasoning, and coping skills want to cut this person out because they are unhealthy, but at the same time I figure what the heck my child should be able to handle it . Shitty parents, yea I get how they bail. They put themselves first, they don't have the skills to be a good parent, they can try and explain it away all they want, doesn't change what they were. Sure the best thing my parents ever did for me was to bail and send me to my aunt and uncles. Before they sent me there permanently I must have spent about 6 months a year with them. But it wasn't done for me or my brother, it was done for them. They couldn't handle having kids, they couldn't be responsible for them, they wanted to do other stuff and we were in the way. The choice was made for them not for us. On the other hand when my parents did decided they wanted to be parents again, my aunt and uncle fought for me. And yea they dealt with the full crazy that was my mom, they dealt with my dad, they dealt with my grandmother who just wanted her family together and happy. Oh and who did not want any of the little dirty secrets that were my mom to get out in public so begged my aunt to do anything that would stop things from going to court. They dealt with my great aunts who just figured if I went home I could "cure" my mom and dad of all choices they make because I would magically make them good parents. And of course they didn't want to get the court involved either. And yea my aunt had names, a gun pulled on her, physically assaulted all by my mom while fighting to keep me. That is what a parent does who really cares for their kid more then themselves. And no my aunt didn't deserve any of that, but then sometimes things are not about what you deserve but what you do instead. And so yea you may not deserve what is happening but that isn't an excuse to take an easy way out, or to choose not to do what is right. But then my mom still will swear that she was a great parent and I abandoned her. So yea I think most of the times shitty parents don't even realize the damage they have done, or how bad they were.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 10, 2014 7:55:49 GMT -5
There is no reason for a good parent to bail on their kids. Specially over a shitty ex. That means you should just fight harder for them. You can't handle them for your sanity, but figures your kids should be able to handle them . I just don't get that, me an adult with adult logic, reasoning, and coping skills want to cut this person out because they are unhealthy, but at the same time I figure what the heck my child should be able to handle it . Shitty parents, yea I get how they bail. They put themselves first, they don't have the skills to be a good parent, they can try and explain it away all they want, doesn't change what they were. Sure the best thing my parents ever did for me was to bail and send me to my aunt and uncles. Before they sent me there permanently I must have spent about 6 months a year with them. But it wasn't done for me or my brother, it was done for them. They couldn't handle having kids, they couldn't be responsible for them, they wanted to do other stuff and we were in the way. The choice was made for them not for us. On the other hand when my parents did decided they wanted to be parents again, my aunt and uncle fought for me. And yea they dealt with the full crazy that was my mom, they dealt with my dad, they dealt with my grandmother who just wanted her family together and happy. Oh and who did not want any of the little dirty secrets that were my mom to get out in public so begged my aunt to do anything that would stop things from going to court. They dealt with my great aunts who just figured if I went home I could "cure" my mom and dad of all choices they make because I would magically make them good parents. And of course they didn't want to get the court involved either. And yea my aunt had names, a gun pulled on her, physically assaulted all by my mom while fighting to keep me. That is what a parent does who really cares for their kid more then themselves. And no my aunt didn't deserve any of that, but then sometimes things are not about what you deserve but what you do instead. And so yea you may not deserve what is happening but that isn't an excuse to take an easy way out, or to choose not to do what is right. But then my mom still will swear that she was a great parent and I abandoned her. So yea I think most of the times shitty parents don't even realize the damage they have done, or how bad they were. So true. I loved my Dad but he should have protected me against my mom. The sanest years of my life were spent with grandparents with my aunts helping out. Those are my only happy childhood memories. But when mummy decided she wanted to play mummy again, back I went because I "belonged to her."
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 10, 2014 8:03:26 GMT -5
Meh, I see this as no different than people who give their kids up for adoption or have them taken away by the state. Some people are bad parents. That doesn't make them terrible people in every facet of life. How is a mother who gives her kid up for adoption any different than a mother who can't because the father wants custody and she's now locked in? Neither of them want a kid, but one is being legally forced to be "the parent". Frankly, if you don't want contact with your kids, you're probably doing the best thing by not being in their lives as opposed to trying to "force it" because it's a societal expectation. People still seemed obsessed with this idea that you need your biological mother and father to raise you. I'm all for adoption...at birth. But walking out of a kids life after they love you is cruel and something I can't even imagine. There is NOTHing my husband could do to me that would make me walk away from my kids. In my deepest moments of depression, I wondered if the kids would be better off with someone who was better able to take care of them than me. Intellectually, I knew that it would be worse for them but emotionally I was a mess. I did bring it up with my therapist and we worked on me. Plus the meds were kicking in.
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goldensam
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Post by goldensam on Jun 10, 2014 19:03:56 GMT -5
My mom and dad split when I was maybe 6 months old. He signed over rights to her next husband when I was 3 or so. I "met" him for the first time when I was 9 because my maternal grandma set up a secret meeting behind my mom's back. He never paid a dollar in child support after leaving. When I was 16 and on my own I called him and asked for some help because I was dead broke, he said he wouldn't send me money because he would never contribute a dollar that would help my mom. I tried to explain that I didn't live with her, but that made no difference to him. He's floated in and out of my life since 9, with the most contact being in the past few years when I get a text on my birthday that says "Happy bday". Sometimes even a card, usually with a note that my finger isn't broken and I can call him if I want. He called me two years ago while drunk and begged for a grandchild.
He remarried and had two kids. According to their Facebook pages, he's the greatest dad that ever was, complete with new cars with big bows at 16. He complains that I made more my first year out of college than he ever has in a year. Meanwhile, the degree that I got to make that happen was paid for by me and only me.
I resent him and I will never forgive him.
My partner is a father to two kids. If he had been a shitty father, no way would I have stayed. If we are being honest, I never wanted kids but I fell hard for him and they were a package deal, so I try to be the best stepmom I can be, even if I don't always know how.
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Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2014 19:26:10 GMT -5
My mom and dad split when I was maybe 6 months old. He signed over rights to her next husband when I was 3 or so. I "met" him for the first time when I was 9 because my maternal grandma set up a secret meeting behind my mom's back. He never paid a dollar in child support after leaving. When I was 16 and on my own I called him and asked for some help because I was dead broke, he said he wouldn't send me money because he would never contribute a dollar that would help my mom. I tried to explain that I didn't live with her, but that made no difference to him. He's floated in and out of my life since 9, with the most contact being in the past few years when I get a text on my birthday that says "Happy bday". Sometimes even a card, usually with a note that my finger isn't broken and I can call him if I want. He called me two years ago while drunk and begged for a grandchild. He remarried and had two kids. According to their Facebook pages, he's the greatest dad that ever was, complete with new cars with big bows at 16. He complains that I made more my first year out of college than he ever has in a year. Meanwhile, the degree that I got to make that happen was paid for by me and only me. I resent him and I will never forgive him. My partner is a father to two kids. If he had been a shitty father, no way would I have stayed. If we are being honest, I never wanted kids but I fell hard for him and they were a package deal, so I try to be the best stepmom I can be, even if I don't always know how. That seriously breaks my heart. How can I parent walk out in their child? It is beyond comprehension to me, yet I know it happens every day. It is the kids that suffer :-(. I'm really sorry for what you went through And I feel the same way about a man with children. If he has kids but abandons them I would want nothing to do with him. How could I respect someone that could toss their own flesh and blood away? Breaks my heart
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