billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2014 10:23:14 GMT -5
I got justifiably called on this post. It didn't state the point i was attempting to make well and gave a false impression by what I quoted. Sorry.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Jun 9, 2014 10:23:40 GMT -5
There is room for growth and redemption, but you need to pay the consequences first. People who often do wrong want the redemption without ever having the paid for their errors. Doesn'T work like that or at least in my book it doesn't. And what is the consequence that you would judge to be adequate? Obviously, it would depend on the situation. But first of all, I think that it would be understanding the situation from the child's perspective. Not demanding that a relationship happen when maybe the child has seen the absent parent only once in the past year. Understanding that for whatever reason the estrangement happened, it did happen, and the absent parent had a role in that as the adult. Not bashing the other parent (the parent who wasn't absent), which only confuses the child and forces loyalties. Sometimes, the unfortunate consequence is that the relationship is irreparably damaged because of the absence. And you can't spend your life blaming the kid for not accepting you or wanting the relationship or blaming the other parent. I think that it's heartbreaking for my father, but he created his situation. it was only him and no one else. He has that live with himself. I have forgiven my father, but I fucking resent the hell out of him now for his constant guilt trips because he feels that he is owed some father-child relationship. I owe him nothing. What I do give him is out of the generosity of my heart. I didn't ask to be born. And I certainly didn't ask him to be my father.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2014 10:27:57 GMT -5
... . I have forgiven my father, but I fucking resent the hell out of him ... You and I must have a seriously different definition of "forgiven".
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Jun 9, 2014 10:29:57 GMT -5
... . I have forgiven my father, but I fucking resent the hell out of him ... You and I must have a seriously different definition of "forgiven". I forgive him for the past, I resent him NOW for his current actions. Past=water under the bridge. Present=now currently flooded Does that clear it up for you?
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2014 10:34:13 GMT -5
Personally, I'm of the mind that forgiving someone is 98% or more for you and your own sanity than it is the other person. I can forgive a person and no longer carry around the weight of resentment and hate, but it sure doesn't mean I have to have anything to do with you.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2014 10:36:55 GMT -5
why to misquote? If you don't get that a person needs to at least address and attempt to heal the hurts they cause in their older children for redemption on abandoning them - then so be it. Have fun being you. But don't misrepresent a quotation. Sorry about posting what i did. It was an inadequate attempt to make a point and clearly misleading as done.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2014 10:39:09 GMT -5
You and I must have a seriously different definition of "forgiven". I forgive him for the past, I resent him NOW for his current actions. Past=water under the bridge. Present=now currently flooded Does that clear it up for you? Nothing was unclear before. It still appears we have different definitions.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Jun 9, 2014 10:48:38 GMT -5
I forgive him for the past, I resent him NOW for his current actions. Past=water under the bridge. Present=now currently flooded Does that clear it up for you? Nothing was unclear before. It still appears we have different definitions. Then what would your definition be? For me, forgiveness would be acknowledging that mistakes were made, no more anger, no more bringing it up, no need for payback or retributions, but it doesn't mean that the mistake didn't happen. It doesn't mean that things can go back to where it use to be. Something happened. You can't unbreak something that has been broken, but there is no need to be mad about it being broken. There is no need to be sad or dwell on it. It's just broken. And that's that. Insisting that things go back to the way they use to be, is like the sinner's version of not forgiving. The need to make right what can't be made right. That last part is hard to get. It's clear in my head, but I can't articulate it very well.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 9, 2014 10:52:04 GMT -5
I have a father who talks about us all the time to strangers and if you didn't know him, you would think that the was the most devoted father in the world and that we are the assholes. But I could tell stories about my father that would make you throw up. And my father also keeps framed pictures of us around and harps about how much he loves us. In the training for advocates for foster kids, this is a frequent topic. Even among the parents who have done things that most members of society would agree are unacceptable - hurt their children, abandoned their children, done drugs around their children - it's rare that you find a parent that doesn't have pictures of their kids and talk often and passionately about how much they "love" their children. "Loving" your kids is biology. That "love" is a feeling and unless it's accompanied by actions, doesn't do a child much good. Even the crappy parents feel strong "love". They just don't understand that certain actions need to accompany that feeling. To be a good parent, it's not enough to "love" your kids very much and have pictures of them. You also have to provide basic care and emotional attachment or you may "love" them but you're still an awful parent. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Anyone who doesn't understand that hasn't spent time around drug abusers, criminals and parents who've had their children taken away from them. All these people "love" their kids, but their actions are still deplorable.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2014 11:32:22 GMT -5
Personally, I'm of the mind that forgiving someone is 98% or more for you and your own sanity than it is the other person. I can forgive a person and no longer carry around the weight of resentment and hate, but it sure doesn't mean I have to have anything to do with you. This stance has always confused me. You forgive someone for yourself? Why do you care? I get not bottle it up and having a past issue sour you - but shy the need to forgive in order to move on? Just move on. Reminds me of the pray: "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". It like a bargain - I forgive you so I can move on. How is that real forgiveness? It is a self-serving entity. Dismiss it from you life, acknowledge it, but cease to have it affect you - either in what you do or how you think/feel. I don't see a need to forgive, unless the person had come and asked it seeking atonement. I would forgive a sincere person asking for it. I see it more as the straight dictionary definition. From the Merriam-Webster dictionary: to stop feeling anger toward (someone who has done something wrong) : to stop blaming (someone) : to stop feeling anger about (something) All definitions of the word are about the person letting go, dismissing from your life, ceasing to have have an affect on you - not about the person absolving the person, or really the other person at all. I'm assuming it's the religious aspect that's brought in the atonement and a person asking forgiveness - but that's a hunch as I don't have a strong religious background.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jun 9, 2014 11:38:46 GMT -5
I don't get it... Reading debtheaven post in the ex lover thread how some new lover/SO can demand that the person cease all contact with the their previous spouse and by association children? And I even more shocked with what ease the man seem to totally forget that they had previous kids that still exist and still are their kids..... How can a parent just abandon their kid(s) and just start fresh with someone else (family and all) and completely erase that part Of their lives? I don't know the answer to your question, but that is exactly what my father did. Parents divorced when mom ws 7 mos pregnant with my sister. Stated reason, "he wasn't ready to settle down" and wanted her to have an abortion (this was in 1947). A couple of years after the divorce, he remarried (did not tell the new wife about previous marriage and his two children). Had one child (a boy) then adopted two girls. In all my years growing up, there was not a single effort at communication - not a single birthday card, Christmas card, nada. My grandmother (his mother) was very good to us. But she showed us his family pictures and when I was young it hurt. Last I heard he was in a nursing home. I probably won't know when he dies. Can't say that I care that much.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jun 9, 2014 11:55:37 GMT -5
All definitions of the word are about the person letting go, dismissing from your life, ceasing to have an affect on you
There have been a couple of people that I've had to forgive just to save my own sanity. One being my bio father. Another my bio mother. I didn't say anything about it to either of them but after many years I was able to let go of the past and deal with today only.
Forgiveness also allows your thoughts to go on a lighter path.
The Bible teaches to love one another. Treat each other with compassion. Pray for each other and hope they have a good life.
I have yet to see where it says you have to like one another.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2014 13:54:19 GMT -5
I can assure you that if any man told me I had to choose between him or my children, he would be out the door immediately. A man who drops his children because his new wife doesn't want to step-parent is a piece of shit As are the women who put men in that position. At the end if the day it is he man making the decision. I might think a man was an asshole if he tried to force me to choose him over my children. But if I actually did choose him I've my children I would be the complete asshole. The children mean nothing to some random woman but they SHOULD mean something to their father.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2014 13:58:44 GMT -5
... That's like saying that a man who abused his first wife is a great husband for never hitting his second wife. ... So no opportunity for growth and redemption? I wonder who has lived a life so perfect that they would not be condemned under such judgement. There is no redemption for abandoning your children. I'm the product of divorce and my mom was an ass...but I can assure you my father would have spent his last cent if she tried to refuse him visitation. That is what a good parent does. I could never be with a man who had children that he never saw. To me, that speaks volumes about him as a person. While I do not plan on having anymore children (so I wouldn't have to worry about him leaving my children, too), I have no respect for anyone who just exits their children's lives. I am not talking adoption where the baby is given up at birth. But how any parent can just walk out if their kids lives after raising them for any amount if time is just something I can't understand.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 9, 2014 14:25:11 GMT -5
If there is such growth/redemption, why is it not applied equally to all children?
I have no doubt that it is more challenging to be active in the lives of children who do not live with you full-time. But that doesn't mean you get a mulligan. IMO if there is true growth, it will be demonstrated by involvement with the kids with whom it is more difficult to see(geographic proximity, interfering custodial parent, etc.) Mid, I am sorry you experienced this. It sounds quite painful. Why isn't it equali? Because the situation isn't equal. One gets to start over with the new children from the begining. With the prior children there will be the overhead of begging your way into their lives and that may take years of rejection and you are unlikely to ever be fully forgiven. So many just apply that growth to the new family and not the additional growth they will need to heal the prior family. Unfortunately its lot like romantic relationships. When your BF leaves you and gets the new GF, he finally gets in that place to accept all the things you were telling him, teaching him, that he ignored. New GF reaps all your groundwork.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 15:01:51 GMT -5
Mid, I am sorry you experienced this. It sounds quite painful. Why isn't it equali? Because the situation isn't equal. One gets to start over with the new children from the begining. With the prior children there will be the overhead of begging your way into their lives and that may take years of rejection and you are unlikely to ever be fully forgiven. So many just apply that growth to the new family and not the additional growth they will need to heal the prior family. Unfortunately its lot like romantic relationships. When your BF leaves you and gets the new GF, he finally gets in that place to accept all the things you were telling him, teaching him, that he ignored. New GF reaps all your groundwork. but this isn't a spurned GF! A person can have any number of SOs - but they only have 1 each of the parent - one mother, one father. when you are a crappy parent - that child has no opportunity of finding a "new" parent at the next nightclub or church bizarre. Maybe biological, but I truly do look at my stepfather as my Dad. I don't say that around biological Dad who I have zero ill feelings toward for not being around when I was growing up, but it's true.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 9, 2014 15:02:21 GMT -5
And that is a complete cop-out. (Not you specifically, Opti - but that attitude).
Parenting is a hard, often thankless job. That doesn't mean it's OK to take the easy way out. There are countless threads here skewering parents for being too lazy to discipline their kids, or feed them nutritious food, or go over their homework, or teach them the value of hard work, etc. But removing yourself from their lives entirely because a custodial parent has made it difficult or unpleasant to be around is OK - because you can just start fresh with a new family?
*And this assumes that the custodial parent HAS made it difficult to see the kid(s). Often that is not the case.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 9, 2014 15:08:40 GMT -5
This thread reminded me of a situation in my own life, and one I still wonder about.
My best friend did not leave her children behind when she left her husband, but she did leave everyone else behind, and did so with no warning. Her job, her friends, both of her brothers (and her brothers' wives and kids) her neighbors. She was involved in a long-distance affair, and decided she wanted to be with her lover. Who rejected her and her kids when she showed up at his doorstep.
She wound up staying in that city and marrying someone else. The marriage is not a good one, from what I hear.
Over the years, she made no attempt to contact anyone here. I saw her 12 years after the divorce, and had only a few words to say to her. Her XH is still one of my best friends, and we have conversed several times about what it is that leads (or drives) a person to just everything and go, with no acknowledgement to anyone. I've also discussed this with a member of my own family, who is a psychiatrist. I found the behavior to be almost sociopathic. This woman never physically hurt animals, as far as I know, though she ignored her children's tears and pleas and got rid of their dog during the divorce. Much of what is stated below does indeed fit her to a "T":
A sociopath can be defined as a person who is at least 18 years old who has Antisocial Personality Disorder. This disorder is characterized by a disregard for the feelings of others, a lack of remorse or shame, manipulative behavior, unchecked egocentricity, and the ability to lie in order to achieve one's goals. Sociopaths can be dangerous at worst or simply very difficult to deal with, and it's important to know if you've found yourself with a sociopath, whether it's someone you're dating or an impossible coworker. If you want to know how to spot a sociopath, then you have to pay careful attention to what the person says or does. Most sociopaths can commit vile actions and not feel the least bit of remorse. Such actions may include physical abuse or public humiliation of others. If the person is a true sociopath, then he or she will feel no remorse about hurting others, lying, manipulating people, or just generally acting in an unacceptable way.
When a sociopath does something wrong, he or she is likely to accept none of the blame and to blame others instead. Sociopaths are willing to hurt whomever whenever if it means that they will achieve their goals. This is why many sociopaths are highly successful people, unfortunately. Sociopaths may be cruel to animals and will show absolutely no remorse for that, either. Think about it: have you ever once heard the person apologize? If you've never heard the words "I'm sorry" come out of his or her mouth and you've known each other for a long time, then you may have a problem.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 9, 2014 15:21:29 GMT -5
I was explaining possible motivations of a parent who does this. These people are how they are. Throughout history things like this have happened and probably will happen for the forseeable future.
And some kids get step-parents if that's how their life is supposed to unfold. I believe in reincarnation, so obviously there must be some lessons that cannot be learned if we all are born every time to a two parent household that stays together until we grow up.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 9, 2014 15:26:19 GMT -5
I was explaining possible motivations of a parent who does this. These people are how they are. Throughout history things like this have happened and probably will happen for the forseeable future. And some kids get step-parents if that's how their life is supposed to unfold. I believe in reincarnation, so obviously there must be some lessons that cannot be learned if we all are born every time to a two parent household that stays together until we grow up. I'm thinking the lesson is something like "Make better choices in your partners for your kids sake" But I'm in a snarky and cranky mood once again today.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 9, 2014 15:31:31 GMT -5
I was explaining possible motivations of a parent who does this. These people are how they are. Throughout history things like this have happened and probably will happen for the forseeable future. And some kids get step-parents if that's how their life is supposed to unfold. I believe in reincarnation, so obviously there must be some lessons that cannot be learned if we all are born every time to a two parent household that stays together until we grow up. I'm thinking the lesson is something like "Make better choices in your partners for your kids sake" But I'm in a snarky and cranky mood once again today. Don't see anything wrong with that being one lesson.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 9, 2014 15:39:56 GMT -5
WB, from a soul's perspective I think sometime the lesson is how it feels to be a certain kind of asshole and how it impacts those around you. I truly believe life is not a one shot deal striving for some YM type perfection. I think its more like actors playing different parts. One lifetime you choose to play the abandoned child, another you choose to play the part who leaves.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 9, 2014 15:41:54 GMT -5
I was explaining possible motivations of a parent who does this. These people are how they are. Throughout history things like this have happened and probably will happen for the forseeable future. And some kids get step-parents if that's how their life is supposed to unfold. I believe in reincarnation, so obviously there must be some lessons that cannot be learned if we all are born every time to a two parent household that stays together until we grow up. I'm thinking the lesson is something like "Make better choices in your partners for your kids sake" But I'm in a snarky and cranky mood once again today. If everyone planning to have kids also had the proverbial crystal ball, this would indeed be a useful lesson. But in my friend's case, everything started off pretty well. They had a good marriage for about half of the 12 years they were married. The other half turned into hell. Thinking back, I wonder if there were some signs. She had been married before, and had a two-year-old daughter when she and my friend married. Marriage number one was reckless, youthful (I think she was just 18 at the time) and husband number one was a chronically unemployed jailbird who thought hitting a woman solved his problems.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 9, 2014 16:23:56 GMT -5
Rukh,
You see it as a cop out attitude. I see it as a way to explain why things are the way they are. Because of what I read and what I now believe, I don't expect the world ever to be a wonderful place for all.
In any event, tell me how having your attitude is going to change the people who do this into the people you think they should be?
And yes I don't think Karma works the way many of us think it does. But yes, your puppy kicker example is one of the possible dark sides of the belief. I think as individuals we should strive to be the best we can be.
I don't think its black and white. I don't think today is the day you want to undestand how I see the shades of gray either. Nor the day I can explain it well apparently.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 9, 2014 16:34:14 GMT -5
Meh, I see this as no different than people who give their kids up for adoption or have them taken away by the state. Some people are bad parents. That doesn't make them terrible people in every facet of life.
How is a mother who gives her kid up for adoption any different than a mother who can't because the father wants custody and she's now locked in? Neither of them want a kid, but one is being legally forced to be "the parent". Frankly, if you don't want contact with your kids, you're probably doing the best thing by not being in their lives as opposed to trying to "force it" because it's a societal expectation.
People still seemed obsessed with this idea that you need your biological mother and father to raise you.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 9, 2014 16:36:55 GMT -5
There is another side to this argument that's worth considering.
My Husbands ex wifes manipulative behaviour...(by whom he had two sons)
He loved his children and wanted to see them but It was... "do this or you wont see the kids" He would arrive to pick them up and her meathead of a boyfriend would be waiting for a confrontation. She would send the kids in ripped clothes because she liked to imply our house was dirty and we all had germs. Five minutes after they had returned the phone would ring and she would be screaming accusations down the phone after she had quizzed the boys. Toys and clothes I bought for them were placed in the bin. ...and I was constantly referred to, in my hearing, as "that bitch" On the one occasion he was invited to a swimming gala he learned that he would be alone with her and her boyfriend.....The boy way told that his father didn't attend because he didn't love him.
Contact ended when we were told that we had to have the kids every weekend Friday to Sunday night.....and pick them up from 70 miles away (or you won't see them)
It was just too stressful he couldn't continue as it was making him ill.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2014 17:27:33 GMT -5
Meh, I see this as no different than people who give their kids up for adoption or have them taken away by the state. Some people are bad parents. That doesn't make them terrible people in every facet of life. How is a mother who gives her kid up for adoption any different than a mother who can't because the father wants custody and she's now locked in? Neither of them want a kid, but one is being legally forced to be "the parent". Frankly, if you don't want contact with your kids, you're probably doing the best thing by not being in their lives as opposed to trying to "force it" because it's a societal expectation. People still seemed obsessed with this idea that you need your biological mother and father to raise you. I'm all for adoption...at birth. But walking out of a kids life after they love you is cruel and something I can't even imagine. There is NOTHing my husband could do to me that would make me walk away from my kids.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2014 17:34:52 GMT -5
There is another side to this argument that's worth considering. My Husbands ex wifes manipulative behaviour...(by whom he had two sons) He loved his children and wanted to see them but It was... "do this or you wont see the kids" He would arrive to pick them up and her meathead of a boyfriend would be waiting for a confrontation. She would send the kids in ripped clothes because she liked to imply our house was dirty and we all had germs. Five minutes after they had returned the phone would ring and she would be screaming accusations down the phone after she had quizzed the boys. Toys and clothes I bought for them were placed in the bin. ...and I was constantly referred to, in my hearing, as "that bitch" On the one occasion he was invited to a swimming gala he learned that he would be alone with her and her boyfriend.....The boy way told that his father didn't attend because he didn't love him. Contact ended when we were told that we had to have the kids every weekend Friday to Sunday night.....and pick them up from 70 miles away (or you won't see them) It was just too stressful he couldn't continue as it was making him ill. I'm going to have to disagree with you. First off, i would drive to the ends of the earth if it meant time with my children so 70 miles is no big deal. And since he didn't see them all week, wouldn't he want them all weekend? Wouldn't he have them all weekend if he had stayed married to their mother? And if that visitation arrangement didn't work out, there are attorneys to help get a reasonable visitation schedule And so what if she called you names? My mom hated my dads second wife and did everything she could to irritate her. Why should my dad have cut off visitation with me because of my mom? Oh, his second wife wanted him to stop seeing me because it bothered her. They argued one night when they didn't think I could hear. He point blank told her I was his daughter, I was there when they married, I will always be there so she could get used to it or get out. THAT is how a father should think about his child. Anyone else is just a sperm donor.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jun 9, 2014 17:53:58 GMT -5
There is another side to this argument that's worth considering. My Husbands ex wifes manipulative behaviour...(by whom he had two sons) He loved his children and wanted to see them but It was... "do this or you wont see the kids" He would arrive to pick them up and her meathead of a boyfriend would be waiting for a confrontation. She would send the kids in ripped clothes because she liked to imply our house was dirty and we all had germs. Five minutes after they had returned the phone would ring and she would be screaming accusations down the phone after she had quizzed the boys. Toys and clothes I bought for them were placed in the bin. ...and I was constantly referred to, in my hearing, as "that bitch" On the one occasion he was invited to a swimming gala he learned that he would be alone with her and her boyfriend.....The boy way told that his father didn't attend because he didn't love him. Contact ended when we were told that we had to have the kids every weekend Friday to Sunday night.....and pick them up from 70 miles away (or you won't see them) It was just too stressful he couldn't continue as it was making him ill. I'm going to have to disagree with you. First off, i would drive to the ends of the earth if it meant time with my children so 70 miles is no big deal. And since he didn't see them all week, wouldn't he want them all weekend? Wouldn't he have them all weekend if he had stayed married to their mother? And if that visitation arrangement didn't work out, there are attorneys to help get a reasonable visitation schedule And so what if she called you names? My mom hated my dads second wife and did everything she could to irritate her. Why should my dad have cut off visitation with me because of my mom? Oh, his second wife wanted him to stop seeing me because it bothered her. They argued one night when they didn't think I could hear. He point blank told her I was his daughter, I was there when they married, I will always be there so she could get used to it or get out. THAT is how a father should think about his child. Anyone else is just a sperm donor. SO THIS!!!!! Not to get too personal, but why wouldn't your husband (OP, not Ms tequila) fight for custody if he was sick of the drama? What did the visitation schedule from the court say if he didn't want to fight for primary custody? If the the ex isn't abiding by the visitation schedule (timing, miles driven, etc), why not haul her in for contempt of court)? Who cares if she calls you names? Doesn't it reinforce why he isn't with her anyways? Why not document all the drama and BS (Names, harassment, poor clothing choices, not abiding with court order, etc) and file for custody? Full disclosure: I have several members of my close family (men) who have had to deal with all of the above. They didn't leave their children behind, they documented everything and ended up with primary custody. One was even in the early 1980s, when it was presumed mothers must always be the better parent. The "mother" in that case was a drug addict who was going to allow her current BF to sell one of her later children (she had kids like a rabbit) for drugs. The children were always dirty, neglected, and full of lice when dad got them for visitation. "Mom" told the kids that dad didn't love them and a whole bunch of other lies but dad (and new wife) documented everything. When they went to court, they had dates/times of obscene calls, non-compliance with court orders, etc and judge gave them full custody (children were 2, 6, and 10). Mom floated in and out of their lives (She would sometimes not show up at their designated meeting spot (they lived 70 miles apart) with no call/notice/etc (This was before cell phones). Finally got clean and got back in the kids' lives when they were adults. She is a poor excuse for a parent and those children suffered for it. Luckily, their dad didn't give up. The saddest part was that the 4 children she had after that (by different men) all had dads that didn't care. Several of them were abused and the state ended up taking the kids and passing them out to various members of the family
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Spellbound454
Senior Member
"In the end, we remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends"
Joined: Sept 9, 2011 17:28:42 GMT -5
Posts: 4,096
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Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 9, 2014 17:55:20 GMT -5
You think that's the way grown-ups behave, do you?
Tragedy is.....it didn't have to be that way....at all.
I just wonder how many men have broken off contact with their children because their children's mother has made things impossible. I saw a whole different side to the argument.
I would have had them both as kids but it didn't happen....though as soon as the youngest turned 18, he came here.
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