Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 5, 2014 10:16:20 GMT -5
I've been debating for quite some time on posting this. I've been reluctant to because I am concerned about trying to keep it coherent and I don't like coming off as a "whiner" but here it goes.
I've posted in the past about my dating troubles, as in, despite years of effort I seem utterly incapable of establishing a serious relationship with anyone. Most advice received in the past was on how to get out and meet people, but this thread is different.
What bothers me greatly, what I turn over in my mind frequently, is why is dating so difficult? Why does it never work out? From what I see from most others, it doesn't seem that hard, almost effortless.
I know I'm not perfect, but I think I have things to bring to a relationship:
1. I'm college educated, and reasonably intelligent. 2. I'm gainfully employed, and make a decent income, enough to support a family at least. 3. I don't have a criminal record, or get into trouble with the law. 4. I'm not an alcoholic, addicted to drugs, gambling, or anything else as far as I know. 5. I'm not mentally ill, as far as I can tell. 6. I'm independent and reasonably responsible, I can manage my own affairs (i.e. I have my own car, place to live, job ect). I don't need anyone to support me. 7. I'm pretty responsible with money, I have no debt. 8. I don't have a habbit of smacking around women (as in I don't do it). 9. I think I'm reasonably good looking, if nothing else I'm tall, which is supposedly a desirable trait.
Yet when I try to date I might as well be Ted Bundy. When I look out at the world, I see a lot of women with a lot of guys with significant flaws. They get into trouble with the law, are addicted to something, have mental health issues, beat them, are unemployed, lazy, ect. As I said, I know I'm not perfect, but I think a lot of women out there can (and I think often do) worse.
I try not to get melodramatic about my situation, and try not to be bitter about it. That only hurts me. But honestly it's pretty depressing to be relative success in most other areas of my life but fail utterly in this one particular area. It's basically to the point where I keep trying just to try, more out of grim determination than any hope or expectation of success, and I think that may create a self fullfilling cycle.
Maybe it's a question you guys can't answer since you don't know me personally. But to sum what I'm looking for:
1. Why is dating so difficult for me? Is there something wrong with me? Or is it them? 2. How can I get in the right state of mind for success? How is it possible to be hopeful about my future in this regard?
Anyways, sorry if it's TMI. It's just something that continually bothers me and I don't really see any other outlet for it.
And for the record, it's not for lack of trying. I've done mostly online dating, because I don't really see much alternative. I've sent out hundreds of e-mails, and gone on dozens of first dates, but alas, nothing happens. But as I said, I'm not looking for specific advice on how to get out and meet people, I think address the issues above are more important first.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 5, 2014 10:20:46 GMT -5
That's really hard to answer without knowing you in person and interacting with you. Do you have a trusted family member/friend who is willing to be super blunt with you?
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jun 5, 2014 10:23:14 GMT -5
What happens after the first date? Do you make plans for a second date or just leave it hanging? Do you get rejected for that second date?
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Jun 5, 2014 10:26:33 GMT -5
Oh lord, I'm old.
Anyway, I've read that women like the idea of a bad boy. That would make said bad boy exciting and perhaps a little mysterious. I've never thought about it, but if women like the baddie, maybe they are afraid of the good boy.....too good to be true and all that.
I'm out of ideas..............
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 5, 2014 10:30:28 GMT -5
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 5, 2014 10:32:13 GMT -5
A couple thoughts:
I think you're around my age (28). I had plenty of second dates (and more) from guys when I was younger. I really never had a problem getting dates if I wanted one. But now it is soooo much harder. Part of it was just the atmosphere of college - you meet a lot of people and new people every semester and every party. Another huge part is the quality I'm seeking is way different. Previously, as long as the first date was fun I'd keep going out til it wasn't fun even though I knew there'd be nothing serious to come from it. Now, I don't really want to waste my time dating guys that I know aren't it, or have some of my deal breakers, etc.
Second, I believe you've said before you have Asperger's? That too makes it sooo much harder for you. I have a good friend that has it, and even though I try to reign in stuff he does and point him in the right direction - his natural tendencies go into overdrive. I'm sure different people have different aspects that present with that.
Do you have a close female friend or family member around your age? They'll probably be the best with helping you. Ask them to go through your profile and make suggestions and that sort of thing.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 5, 2014 10:33:06 GMT -5
I have met Phoenix in person and he is good-looking. We had a nice conversation even though neither of us is great at small talk. I wish there was some glaring flaw I could have pointed out to solve the problem.
My brother (who is 24) could have written the OP (although he has a few more flaws - brushes with the law, etc.). I don't know what to tell him, either. What I have told him is that girls his age are not always interested in settling down with the boring family-type guy and are still dating around. I told him that when he gets to be older, girls will be less interested in the fun flings and more ready to settle down. But this isn't much help to him now.
The other thing I would tell my brother - but haven't, because I know it would hurt his feelings - is that he is a 5 or 6 and the girls he pursues are 8s or 9s, and that is probably why he gets so much rejection. I have no idea whether this is true for you, Phoenix.
Sorry I don't have a better answer for you...
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 5, 2014 10:33:31 GMT -5
That's really hard to answer without knowing you in person and interacting with you. Do you have a trusted family member/friend who is willing to be super blunt with you? *nods* I figured it might be too personal of a question to answer on a message board. Usually my parents say something long the lines of "it'll work out eventually" when I bring it up. They aren't really specific. And of course, they aren't really "unbiased" since they already view me in a positive light. I asked a my friend about it when visiting Virginia a couple of weeks ago, and got some advice to update my wardrobe, but that was it. It's really hard to get a "unbiased" opinion, since my friends and family view me positively already, and would probably be concerned about hurting my feelings if there was something specific. Obviously strangers wouldn't respond well to me going up and asking if they want to go out on a "mock date." The closest I've had to an unbiased opinion was when I met MIDJD a little over a year ago. Even though she's married, I asked for feedback on my conduct and apperance. She basically said "I had a good time, I can't see anything you're doing wrong."
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 5, 2014 10:36:47 GMT -5
What is a typical first date with Phoenix like? What do you do? Dinner? Movie? Picnic?
Maybe mix it up. If you are falling into the same pattern on the date try doing something different. Go to a concert instead of a movie. Go on a picnic instead of to a restaurant.
Do you talk about yourself or do you make them do all the talking?
I wish I had more advice for you.
One of DH's close friends is in the same boat as you. He has a doctorate, is the principal of a local school, has zero debt, is nice looking (and tall too). But his relationships never last- they always fizzle out. I think his problem is that he has been single for so long that he has a hard time taking over people's feelings into consideration. He'll get wrapped up doing something and decide he wants to go to dinner without looking at the clock. He'll call the girl he's seeing up at 1am and ask if she wants to get dinner. Um NO! She's probably asleep. So then it comes off as the awkward booty call when that wasn't his intention. Plus he's used to doing things without having to consult people. He'll be at our house hanging out and ignore text messages from his new lady friend. He'll be like "She should know if I don't respond that I'm busy".
If you look at it objectively is there a point in which you feel the date starting to go south?
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 5, 2014 10:36:54 GMT -5
Hmmm....so Mid didn't run away scared. Maybe the problem is what happens after the date ends? Or that you act differently on a date than you did with Mid/family/friends.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 5, 2014 10:38:00 GMT -5
What kind of relationship do you want and are you sure you're picking girls that want that too?
DH is my second boyfriend. Before that I had one back in high school, that's it.
Part of my problem was I don't really enjoy dating. If I was going to date it was with the intent of finding someone to settle down with. Yeah. .. that's going to cause the majority of 20 something males to run for the hills.
I ended up meeting DH who was 30 at the time and at the stage in his life where he was done with the party/dating scene and looking to settle down. So our dating goals lined up perfectly.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 5, 2014 10:38:11 GMT -5
What happens after the first date? Do you make plans for a second date or just leave it hanging? Do you get rejected for that second date? Usually I don't plan a second date on the first. I am just worried it would be to forward or awkward. Usually what happens after a first date is I'll call a day or two later to ask them out again, and they'll tell me they're not interested or (more likely) not answer my calls at all. I'll usually call one or two more times but then figure they aren't interested and stop calling. That's a pretty textbook example.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2014 10:39:41 GMT -5
Lack of confidence? Expecting it to go bad and your body language shows it. Not fully engaging because of expectations of failure? Lack of alcohol? I've been married 16 years now, what do I remember..
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 5, 2014 10:40:15 GMT -5
Oh lord, I'm old.
Anyway, I've read that women like the idea of a bad boy. That would make said bad boy exciting and perhaps a little mysterious. I've never thought about it, but if women like the baddie, maybe they are afraid of the good boy.....too good to be true and all that.
I'm out of ideas.............. Well, not to be insulting to women, but I think there's some truth to this, at least for some women (though likely not all). It's the only reason I can come up with why many women date losers. Either that or poor self esteem or Daddy issues.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2014 10:40:20 GMT -5
I think in another thread you talked about how you didn't have any hobbies or interests so I'm wondering what you talk about on a date.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 5, 2014 10:41:18 GMT -5
Maybe they think you aren't interested because you don't mention a second date? What would happen if you told her "I really enjoyed tonight how about getting together again next week? I'll call you with a firm date in mind".
That might get you more responses. I know as a woman I generally take a generic "I'll call you" as "He's just not that into you honey"
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 5, 2014 10:46:00 GMT -5
A couple thoughts: I think you're around my age (28). I had plenty of second dates (and more) from guys when I was younger. I really never had a problem getting dates if I wanted one. But now it is soooo much harder. Part of it was just the atmosphere of college - you meet a lot of people and new people every semester and every party. Another huge part is the quality I'm seeking is way different. Previously, as long as the first date was fun I'd keep going out til it wasn't fun even though I knew there'd be nothing serious to come from it. Now, I don't really want to waste my time dating guys that I know aren't it, or have some of my deal breakers, etc. Second, I believe you've said before you have Asperger's? That too makes it sooo much harder for you. I have a good friend that has it, and even though I try to reign in stuff he does and point him in the right direction - his natural tendencies go into overdrive. I'm sure different people have different aspects that present with that. Do you have a close female friend or family member around your age? They'll probably be the best with helping you. Ask them to go through your profile and make suggestions and that sort of thing. Don't really have any female friends. The closest I have is my sister. Obviously i can't see myself, but generally I think my case of Asperger's is relatively mild. I think I mostly just come across as unanimated and expressionless. I make an effort on dates to be engaging, but obviously there's only so much I can overcome. In general, I'm not a talker, I play the "strong and silent type" better.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 5, 2014 10:47:23 GMT -5
I think in another thread you talked about how you didn't have any hobbies or interests so I'm wondering what you talk about on a date.
DH has this philosophy about small talk. He figures a person should know enough about a variety of subjects so he can carry on an intelligent conversation. For example- He hates sports. Finds them to be mind-numbingly boring but he starting doing a fantasy football league with some friends so he can talk about that. He follows the scores enough to know the big things "if the Vikings won or lost their last game", if they are in the playoffs, etc.
Practice the small talk, brush up and maybe come up with some conversation topics in advance so you can help steer the conversation some. Current events, what movies are currently popular at the theater, concerts going to your area, hiking, skiing, whatever sport is popular in your area, etc. Books on the bestseller list.
Feel them out- I am a reader, I read probably 4 or 5 books a week. If I ask someone about the last book they read and they don't have an answer or can't remember I'm out. I don't understand people that don't read and have consciously surrounded myself with readers. DS has done the same thing- all of his friends are readers.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 5, 2014 10:48:58 GMT -5
Hmmm....so Mid didn't run away scared. Maybe the problem is what happens after the date ends? Or that you act differently on a date than you did with Mid/family/friends. When I met Mid, the only difference from that and a regular cofee date was being a bit more relaxed because I already "knew" Mid from these boards, and of course since it wasn't really a date, I was probably a little more relaxed than I otherwise would be. But for the most part, it was about as accurate as a simulation as I could get.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jun 5, 2014 10:52:33 GMT -5
Ok, I'll just put this out there, take what you may.
Post a picture in what you normally dress in. We can offer some CC. I'm sure Mid is right that if you are fairly attractive that isn't the problem.
I'll take a stab on the personality thing--if you might be a tiny bit on the spectrum, are the 'strong silent' type, and don't have tons of hobbies or interests -- you might be hard to get to know, and you might be slightly boring. (sorry!) When you get to know someone, there has to be an overlap of common interests or goals. You've got to offer more than being "nice". Are you funny? Are you passionate about anything? Have you read any good books lately?
And the last idea, what kind of women are you going out with? Are you going out with shy, introverted women similar to yourself? Or are you finding a ying to your yang? You might be better off with someone who shares your personality style/type (INTJ?) rather than someone who is opposite you.
Where are you meeting people and finding people to date? Online? or IRL?
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 5, 2014 10:53:03 GMT -5
In general, I'm not a talker, I play the "strong and silent type" better.
I'm guessing here and could be wrong.
So you take a lady out to dinner. Don't engage in much in the way of small talk. Make her do the bulk of the talking. Make no mention of future dates with her and then wait 2 days before calling her back?
The lady is thinking: A. this guy isn't putting in any effort to tell me about himself B. this is so awkward that I am doing all the talking C. he's playing games because he thinks he has to wait 2 or 3 days to call me back.
I'm guessing here but that's what I'd think if it were me.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 5, 2014 10:58:13 GMT -5
What is a typical first date with Phoenix like? What do you do? Dinner? Movie? Picnic?
Maybe mix it up. If you are falling into the same pattern on the date try doing something different. Go to a concert instead of a movie. Go on a picnic instead of to a restaurant.
Do you talk about yourself or do you make them do all the talking?
I wish I had more advice for you.
One of DH's close friends is in the same boat as you. He has a doctorate, is the principal of a local school, has zero debt, is nice looking (and tall too). But his relationships never last- they always fizzle out. I think his problem is that he has been single for so long that he has a hard time taking over people's feelings into consideration. He'll get wrapped up doing something and decide he wants to go to dinner without looking at the clock. He'll call the girl he's seeing up at 1am and ask if she wants to get dinner. Um NO! She's probably asleep. So then it comes off as the awkward booty call when that wasn't his intention. Plus he's used to doing things without having to consult people. He'll be at our house hanging out and ignore text messages from his new lady friend. He'll be like "She should know if I don't respond that I'm busy".
If you look at it objectively is there a point in which you feel the date starting to go south? It varies. Personally, I prefer to do an activity on a date so I don't have to talk so much, and it helps fill awkward silences. So personally I like to do bowling or ice skating or mini golf or something like that. But most girls seem to want to do the coffee or lunch/dinner thing. Covernsation is difficult for me. It doesn't come naturally with people I don't know. Generally I prefer others to do the talking, but on a date I'll ask questions and make a point to talk about myself as well. I try not to make it an in terview either, and to to expound on various topics that interest her. In other words, I do my best to have a natural conversation, but I don't know how it comes off. I can't really tell when exactly a date goes south. Sometimes I'll think a date goes well but obviously she'll have a different opinion. other times we never really hit it off. The issue with your principle friend might also affect me as well, though I've never gotten to the point where we regularly date so who knows? But I have been single for a long time, and I could myself having some difficulty with things like taking other peoples' feelings and schedules into account when making personal plans. Hopefully I can adapt, when/if the time comes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2014 11:00:35 GMT -5
Back in my single days, there were four words that worked almost every time to get a girl into bed. I could share them with you if you are interested.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 5, 2014 11:04:02 GMT -5
Ok, I'll just put this out there, take what you may. Post a picture in what you normally dress in. We can offer some CC. I'm sure Mid is right that if you are fairly attractive that isn't the problem. I'll take a stab on the personality thing--if you might be a tiny bit on the spectrum, are the 'strong silent' type, and don't have tons of hobbies or interests -- you might be hard to get to know, and you might be slightly boring. (sorry!) When you get to know someone, there has to be an overlap of common interests or goals. You've got to offer more than being "nice". Are you funny? Are you passionate about anything? Have you read any good books lately? And the last idea, what kind of women are you going out with? Are you going out with shy, introverted women similar to yourself? Or are you finding a ying to your yang? You might be better off with someone who shares your personality style/type (INTJ?) rather than someone who is opposite you. Where are you meeting people and finding people to date? Online? or IRL? Yes, I have considered this as well. I figure I may be "boring." And hobbies could help that. Which is why I've gotten into hiking and plan on starting karate classes again here shortly. I realize I need interests, and even if they don't overlap, it gives you something to talk about, and hopefully something that you can convince them you're passionate about. Mostly online dating. Work is out because I work almost exclusively with baby boomers. I moved to the area a couple of years ago, and thus, don't have any friends in the area to meet mutual aquantiences through. I have gone to some church singles groups, but honestly never found a woman worth asking out. *sighs* what the hell, I'll post a couple of pics, but it'll have to be later, after I get home from work.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 5, 2014 11:04:18 GMT -5
Remember the tread about Angel dating? People tell women to suggest "Coffee" or Lunch so there isn't the big time commitment. You pick a girl up and drive her to a bowling alley or ice skating or whatever and she is trapped. It's a big time commitment and can make things awkward if they aren't comfortable. Coffee is an easy "get you know you" option. You meet there so if it goes sound she has her own transportation home. It's an easy transition from "this was fun, would you like to go out for dinner tomorrow night?"
Maybe be honest with them and tell the lady upfront "I feel like I'm not the smoothest on first dates so please forgive me if I seem shy or awkward". That acknowledges the potential for awkwardness and softens her opinion of you and will hopefully help her be more open minded to a second date. Make a joke out of it and tell her you really start to shine on date #4, maybe she'll appreciate your honesty.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jun 5, 2014 11:06:14 GMT -5
Have you looked into those Meet Up groups for hiking? See if there is a hiking club you could join. If you have a common interest from the beginning that gives you a variety of conversation topics right off the bat.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 5, 2014 11:07:12 GMT -5
Maybe they think you aren't interested because you don't mention a second date? What would happen if you told her "I really enjoyed tonight how about getting together again next week? I'll call you with a firm date in mind". That might get you more responses. I know as a woman I generally take a generic "I'll call you" as "He's just not that into you honey" The guys that I've really liked (and liked me) wouldn't let me leave without having the second date planned. Or at the very least a plan to do "something" on a specific day in the near future. I found it nice and refreshing to not be questioning at the end whether the guy wants to see me again or not.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Jun 5, 2014 11:07:12 GMT -5
A couple thoughts: I think you're around my age (28). I had plenty of second dates (and more) from guys when I was younger. I really never had a problem getting dates if I wanted one. But now it is soooo much harder. Part of it was just the atmosphere of college - you meet a lot of people and new people every semester and every party. Another huge part is the quality I'm seeking is way different. Previously, as long as the first date was fun I'd keep going out til it wasn't fun even though I knew there'd be nothing serious to come from it. Now, I don't really want to waste my time dating guys that I know aren't it, or have some of my deal breakers, etc. Second, I believe you've said before you have Asperger's? That too makes it sooo much harder for you. I have a good friend that has it, and even though I try to reign in stuff he does and point him in the right direction - his natural tendencies go into overdrive. I'm sure different people have different aspects that present with that. Do you have a close female friend or family member around your age? They'll probably be the best with helping you. Ask them to go through your profile and make suggestions and that sort of thing. Don't really have any female friends. The closest I have is my sister. Obviously i can't see myself, but generally I think my case of Asperger's is relatively mild. I think I mostly just come across as unanimated and expressionless. I make an effort on dates to be engaging, but obviously there's only so much I can overcome.
In general, I'm not a talker, I play the "strong and silent type" better.See, that, to me as a person you are out with, would show a disinterest. I went on plenty of dates before I met DH. It wasn't the quiet nature of a person that bothered me. It was the feeling that the person has nothing to talk about because I am boring. There is shy and then there is disinterested. If the person keeps looking away, does not make much eye contact, if the body language is too reserved, it screams "I am not too interested" to me. My DH is not a very talkative person. The first time he met me he didn't say much because he was only there with a mutual friend. But he kept glancing at me. Got a call from him for a date 2 days later and even during the first date he didn't say much. I did most talking but he was constantly engaged, maintained eye contact throughout and was mostly oblivious to things around. THAT showed me he was very interested. And he did fix our second date during the first date itself Before I could dwell on the first date. So yeah, its not too forward to talk about second date, if you like the person. Do you start looking around when you are talking? Do you zone in your focus on the person in front of you or not? Do you show only "polite" interest or do you actually try to know the person? Do you only ask information from your date or do you volunteer info too?
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 5, 2014 11:13:36 GMT -5
Ok, it's cliche, but do you and your dates laugh frequently during the date?
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jun 5, 2014 11:14:27 GMT -5
Ok, I'll just put this out there, take what you may. Post a picture in what you normally dress in. We can offer some CC. I'm sure Mid is right that if you are fairly attractive that isn't the problem. I'll take a stab on the personality thing--if you might be a tiny bit on the spectrum, are the 'strong silent' type, and don't have tons of hobbies or interests -- you might be hard to get to know, and you might be slightly boring. (sorry!) When you get to know someone, there has to be an overlap of common interests or goals. You've got to offer more than being "nice". Are you funny? Are you passionate about anything? Have you read any good books lately? And the last idea, what kind of women are you going out with? Are you going out with shy, introverted women similar to yourself? Or are you finding a ying to your yang? You might be better off with someone who shares your personality style/type (INTJ?) rather than someone who is opposite you. Where are you meeting people and finding people to date? Online? or IRL? Yes, I have considered this as well. I figure I may be "boring." And hobbies could help that. Which is why I've gotten into hiking and plan on starting karate classes again here shortly. I realize I need interests, and even if they don't overlap, it gives you something to talk about, and hopefully something that you can convince them you're passionate about. Mostly online dating. Work is out because I work almost exclusively with baby boomers. I moved to the area a couple of years ago, and thus, don't have any friends in the area to meet mutual aquantiences through. I have gone to some church singles groups, but honestly never found a woman worth asking out. *sighs* what the hell, I'll post a couple of pics, but it'll have to be later, after I get home from work. Sounds good. People with interests are interesting! Even if I don't share the interest, I can find it interesting to learn about what other people are doing. I'd also go back to coffee vs an activity. I would not want to go bowling on a first date. Maybe a second, but not a first. And bowling is so weird anyways, staring at the person's ass the whole time. Do you chat long with a person or email them a lot before meeting? It might be better if they can get to "know" you before they meet you.
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