justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jun 2, 2014 22:40:32 GMT -5
You're telling the boys not to sexualize the girls at the same time you're giving them a direct line of sight to the girls' curvaceous legs.
boys are a bubbling pot of hormones
wearing jewellery to get attention
statistical fact that the more provocatively a girl dresses, the more likely she is to attract boys, and among them a boy she'd really rather not attract
The problem is that many people erroneously conflate prudent advice with "blaming the victim" and then further conflate blaming the victim with sexism.
Why would you send you kids to School in something provocative anyway?....There's a time for short shorts at weekends
My interest is in preventing bad things from happening,
No girl really wears short shorts and low-cut tank tops to please herself or even her female friends. She wears them because she wants to attract guys' attention.
But the fact is people can't control what they lust after.
-----
Those were all from the first two pages...none by the people that brought up how saying "teenaged girls' dress distracts boys" feeds right into "what women wear causes men to lose control".
All those comments about how guys can't help it, so girls should cover up to stop them from looking. Which is the same thing as saying if a women wasn't wearing a miniskirt the guy wouldn't have attacked her - saying she should have dressed "appropriately" so the guy wouldn't have wanted her.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 2, 2014 22:47:20 GMT -5
*shrugs* going from acknowledging that teenagers have hormones and lust after each other and the reasons for wearing skimpy outfits is to attract guys to women bringing rapes and assaults on themselves for dressing a certain way seems like a tenuous leap in logic to me. I mean, teenagers having lustful feelings towards each other and girls dressing a certain way to attract boys (and vice versa) shouldn't be earth shattering news.
I'm starting to see why OP's lock threads....
This thread has devolved from a discussion about school dress codes and the article originally posted into a thread about rape and assaults on women which seems to be a sensitive issue for a lot of people. Perhaps it should be a sensitive issue for some folks, but it's not what this thread was to be about.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Jun 2, 2014 22:51:06 GMT -5
Lingerie and shorts or a short skirt are very separate and different things. I'd also like to point out there's a lot of prostitutes out there that don't dress like you think they would. Instead they're in designer clothing. And, again, until I'm blue in the face, dress does not give consent nor does it give excuses. A woman should be able to walk down the street buck ass naked and not be afraid of someone putting their hands on them. The sad reality is a lot are scared to walk down the street along in a skirt and a tank top. Just curious, where are you getting this idea that people are justifying rape or saying clothing gives consent?
Well if you look at the post right above that virgil said "There's a reason prostitutes dress like prostitutes". And brought up lingerie. I was never talking about lingerie to that point.
And because consent is the easiest way to describe it and I was trying to get the point across when it wasn't working with the way others were saying it. You still stand by that girl's shouldn't wear shorts or tank tops (i.e. practically naked according to you) because it will distract the guys and they'll want to look. And then say that guys can't control it. Well, what else will guys do since they can't control themselves? What else should girls do to make sure guys control themselves?
You're obviously never going to get it. A lot of guys don't.
So clothing doesn't give consent, no one here is saying it though (though there's plenty saying appropriate clothes can prevent bad things). So why does it give boys/guys the excuse of not controlling themselves? You say you don't even think/ask what a girl was wearing when you do hear about an attack - yet you call shorts & a tank practically naked. That people can't see why guys would take a dresscode telling girls to cover up and then internalize it that women should cover up if they don't want guys to lust after them and not control themselves boggles my mind.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 2, 2014 22:57:09 GMT -5
There's a difference between making the assertion short shorts and low cut tank tops are not appropriate for school and saying they're not appropriate period. I posted the former, not the latter. What people wear on their own time is none of my business. Seriously, I don't care. It's a free country, you can wear whatever the hell you want when at home our not at school/work. And I'll pass no judgment for your choices.
It seems like you're not "getting" what I'm posting either, so the feeling is mutual. You seem to keep "putting words in my mouth" and think I'm saying stuff that I'm not. Like the case in point above. I said short shorts and low cut tank tops were not appropriate for school, and you took it to mean they were not appropriate period. You assumed I meant something that I didn't mean.
|
|
ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
Community Leader
♡ ♡ BᏋՆᎥᏋᏉᏋ ♡ ♡
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:51 GMT -5
Posts: 43,130
Location: Inside POM's Head
Favorite Drink: Chilled White Zin
|
Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 2, 2014 23:01:29 GMT -5
I live in (Western) Canada, so I'll address this.
Where I live, dress-code for school is pretty much what you would call conservative or "respectable" clothing. Shorts are allowed, but need to be a certain length - most kids here wear jeans or khakis, mid-length skirts etc. Shorts are mostly worn for sports activities and PT.
This happened in Quebec, and they've been rebelling against the rest of the country for 200+ years . I personally think that the shorts in question aren't suitable school attire
I taught in Elementary School many years ago before switching careers - and this wouldn't have flown where I worked.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2014 23:34:23 GMT -5
And, again, until I'm blue in the face, dress does not give consent nor does it give excuses. A woman should be able to walk down the street buck ass naked and not be afraid of someone putting their hands on them. The sad reality is a lot are scared to walk down the street along in a skirt and a tank top. "Buck naked" crosses over into issues of indecency and exhibitionism (I do hold, for example, that to walk around in public naked is shameful, even if there are no consequences for doing so). But insofar as a woman ought to be able to dress provocatively and not have men assault her, I agree. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where "ought to" has much bearing on reality, and we need to acknowledge that provocative dress stimulates sexual appetites, including the appetites of less-than-reputable people. There's also the issue that many girls/women dress provocatively hoping to attract the right kind of attention from the "right kind of guy", and since every guy is the "right kind of guy" in his own mind, the apparel instills a sense of entitlement. As in: she's obviously trying to exhibit her physical beauty to men, ergo she's exhibiting her beauty to me, ergo she has solicited my attention and will welcome my advances. Hence not only the provocative dress itself but also the fact that a woman wants to dress provocatively plays into the psychology of an observer. You can teach teenagers that "attractive dress doesn't equal desire for sex" until the cows come home, and a few will take the message to heart. For many, you might as well be making quacking noises. In recognition of that fact, we encourage or enforce modest dress in both sexes in the spirit of prevention.
|
|
shanendoah
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 19:44:48 GMT -5
Posts: 10,096
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0c3563
|
Post by shanendoah on Jun 3, 2014 0:27:55 GMT -5
whoisjohngalt - Honestly? The goal is a world where my 50+y/o fat (by her description) can walk down a city block and not have a guy run after her, ordering her to smile, and then calling her a bitch when she ignores him, because he thinks he was complimenting her "ugly ass" by following her around telling her how to behave. The goal is never having a judge claim a 14y/o girl is complicit in her own rape because she "was mature beyond her years". @tbird - Pop Tart does completely dress herself. She had one pair of sweats that have something written across the bottom and was told those are jammies and don't get worn out of the house, but other than making sure footwear is appropriate for where we're going and that she has a coat in winter, I don't interfere much with what she wears. At the same time, she's 10, and a young 10 at that. She doesn't get complete autonomy yet. When will she? I can't give you an exact age. It will all depend on her mental and emotional developmental growth. Virgil Showlion - I get what you are saying. And it's noble, in an out-dated kind of way. You want to teach victims how not to be victims. But as you have acknowledged, we don't actually have any real control over that. Someone can do everything "right" and still be attacked. So what we are arguing for is to change the focus, instead of trying to change the behavior of people who have not/are not doing anything wrong, we would like to try and teach perpetrators how not to be perpetrators. Not just as parents or as schools, but as a society. Because the only person responsible for committing a crime is the person committing it. So let's focus on teaching them about choices and personal responsibility and consequences. Phoenix84 - Again, I understand your frustration. Why does everything lead to comments about rape, that's not what this is about. It's about dress codes and whether or not we think this girl has the right to speak up against her dress code and her beliefs about why it is in place and how it is enforced. I get it. I really do. But dress codes, and they way they are enforced, and the way they target girls is part of rape culture. Maybe you don't like the term, and I'm sorry. But it is the culture that holds women responsible for the actions of the men around them, and argues that women should change their behavior in order to make sure men behave appropriately. And that is EXACTLY what this dress code argument is about. This is a young woman saying that education is NOT about what she is wearing, that she and other girls should not be held responsible, vis a vis their clothing, for how the boys in her school behave. Instead, she thinks the school should focus on teaching the boys to behave in an appropriate manner, regardless of what the girls are wearing. Because really, does making girls wear jeans instead of shorts actually make boys think less about sex? And the other point, because this is a problem of culture, is trying to help people understand exactly how pervasive rape culture is, exactly how we have come to accept it and even indoctrinate it into our everyday lives, how rape culture is part of what we are teaching our children without even realizing it. And I get that it really, really sucks to be a guy in these conversations, because it often feels like you can't win. I get that. But believe it or not, these conversations are not fun for me, or for gin or for anyone else. I also get why Gin decided to leave. We have these conversations on this board over and over again, though this is one of the few times I've gotten as actively involved, and it doesn't seem like anyone's position ever changes, and it's frustrating, yes for you, but also for those of us who live it. And it's even more frustrating when those we are trying to have a conversation with seem to dismiss our experiences or claim that it can't really happen all that often. I think the other challenge is understanding that things that don't seem sexual at all are still a part of rape culture. You would not believe how often I have men who tell me to smile, just randomly. And I don't mean once a day, but once every couple of months. I'll be walking somewhere, or shopping, or once was even in the airport on the way home from my grandmother's funeral, when a strange man takes it upon himself to tell me to smile. Do men ever randomly tell other men to smile? It is this idea that men have the right to tell women what to do, or that women exist to make men happy or fit into their world view. And it starts with what we teach our kids in school, and that includes teaching boys that they are not responsible for their own actions, that girls should have to modify their behavior so that boys don't have to modify theirs. It is all connected.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 18:21:41 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2014 1:27:16 GMT -5
When women put their time & energy into being strong they won't have to worry about walking down any street. Do you teach your kids to be healthy and strong? Or do you teach them to conform to what the clothing and cosmetic industries have marketed to them as the ideals of health and beauty. Better messages are getting out there for girls and women. People should pay more attention to them.
|
|
spartan7886
Familiar Member
Joined: Jan 7, 2011 14:04:22 GMT -5
Posts: 788
|
Post by spartan7886 on Jun 3, 2014 5:55:54 GMT -5
I'm 5'4, 130 pounds. There were points in my life I was more than capable of breaking face, arm, or rib bones with a single blow. I still would have lost the vast percentage of fights against a 6' male, because no amount of exercise will generate an extra 6" of reach. There's a reason boxers (and ultimate fighters) have weight classes.
Like Gin, I too would suspect that most men who know me think they don't know anyone who's ever been sexually assaulted. They'd be wrong too. I was lucky. I only got groped through my clothes. Read those two sentences again. That's the mentality we're trying to explain. That and the mentality that had the rest of the club watching this birthday "celebration" and laughing when my bf at the time finally got to come over and shove him off me. That Southern training beaten into your head. Don't make a scene. Push back at him, but nobody else thinks it's a problem, so maybe you're the one judging it wrong. Just endure him gratifying himself on your body until the song ends and go home and take a shower to get him off you.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 3, 2014 5:56:16 GMT -5
whoisjohngalt - Honestly? The goal is a world where my 50+y/o fat (by her description) can walk down a city block and not have a guy run after her, ordering her to smile, and then calling her a bitch when she ignores him, because he thinks he was complimenting her "ugly ass" by following her around telling her how to behave. The goal is never having a judge claim a 14y/o girl is complicit in her own rape because she "was mature beyond her years". doing anything wrong, we would like to try and teach perpetrators how not to be perpetrators. Not just as parents or as schools, but as a society. Because the only person responsible for committing a crime is the person committing it. So let's focus on teaching them about choices and personal responsibility and consequences. yeah, honestly. Are you honestly expecting a perfect behaviour out of every human on the planet? This whole thread got completely absurd, as those threads usually do And once again, all of you arguing about men not do this and not do that - what gives you the right to dictate what other people say or do? I hope I don't need to add AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT PUTTING THEIR HANDS ON YOU, but yes, I do have to add that, bc you all keep bringing that up And stop bringing rape into everything. Again, no one ever said it was OK. Just makes you look like you are out of arguments and need to bring in something for shock value. So what if someone tells you to smile? Who cares So say "no thank you" or "why don't you smile too" and move one with your life. Honestly This is our big problem in life now?
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jun 3, 2014 6:53:44 GMT -5
Some people have the mentality that we shouldn't give advice on avoiding danger since individuals who ignore the advice or aren't aware of it may feel responsible if they're victimized. And while I agree that giving advice can instill these feelings of guilt, the far greater evil would be to avoid giving the advice. it's simply a matter of how we prioritize prevention with respect to remediation. If wearing (or not wearing) certain clothes were actually legitimate methods of prevention, then I would probably agree with you. But I have never seen any study that shows that the type of clothing worn by the victim either increases or decreases the chance of being raped. In fact, the last study I saw about the issue showed that the most common piece of clothing worn by rape victims was a hoodie and/or sweat pants.
Would you please cite your statistics or studies that show that provocative clothing causes (or even correlates to) increased chance of rape? Thanks.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jun 3, 2014 7:08:57 GMT -5
When women put their time & energy into being strong they won't have to worry about walking down any street. Do you teach your kids to be healthy and strong? Or do you teach them to conform to what the clothing and cosmetic industries have marketed to them as the ideals of health and beauty. Not sure if this is tongue in cheek or a joke. If it is, my apologies for responding seriously.
I'm a reasonable boxer and work out regularly. The trainer at the boxing gym (who is also a multiple Golden Gloves winner) says I have the strongest knee up of anybody he's trained - men or women. I compete in a sport that is mostly men and do well. For a woman, I'm very strong.
I'm also 5'3". If you think any of the stuff I wrote in the last paragraph is going to prevent me from being a victim if a normally fit 6' man has plans, you are delusional. I would be able to hurt him, if I knew it was coming and was able to land a knee before he got a good hold of me he'd go down for a few seconds and hopefully I'd be able to get away, but other than that, he's going to do what he wants.
And it's pretty offensive of you to imply that again, it's up to women to achieve some superhuman level of fitness that's all but impossible due to size, because they are the ones responsible for avoiding attack.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jun 3, 2014 7:45:39 GMT -5
Dress code has nothing to do with rape. Period. Start a new topic if you wish to discuss rape.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jun 3, 2014 7:46:40 GMT -5
BTW, I find it very insulting that any time this discussion comes up, someone ALWAYS brings up rape. I challenge any of you to search this board from its inception to find even one post/poster who ever said or implied that rape was OK/justified if the woman was dressed a certain way. Very hard to take an argument seriously from anyone who bring that point into a discussion.
I get what you're saying. Similar to how people tend to set up straw men to prove a point or when someone involved in a fairly minor dispute calls the other person a Nazi. Serves to discredit the person with the overblown point as being out of touch.
I also think Shanendoah in post #108 describes why the discussion of dress code for women gets involved with discussions of rape - it's all part of what's (unfortunately) been described as "rape culture" and when you start talking about rape culture, then it's pretty normal to start bringing rape into the discussion. The actual act of rape is one of the most severe forms of the culture, but that term is also used to describe the whole idea that women bear responsibility for preventing their own harassment, rape, discrimination, etc. rather than focusing on the actual perpetrators of those crimes.
IMHO if a school determines that having certain basic dress requirements are helpful in preventing issues and those requirements are applied equally to both genders, not inappropriate for climate and reasonable for their culture, then that's not a fight that I'd think was worth having for the very reason mentioned in paragraph one. Wear the longer shorts, shrug and move on. But when you have people who keep asserting that this is all reasonable because not only is it the responsibility of women to prevent harassment/rape/discrimination by men and that somehow revealing clothing justifies or causes those things, then it's reasonable to debate that point and the description of "rape culture" is part of that debate.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 3, 2014 7:46:57 GMT -5
Some people have the mentality that we shouldn't give advice on avoiding danger since individuals who ignore the advice or aren't aware of it may feel responsible if they're victimized. And while I agree that giving advice can instill these feelings of guilt, the far greater evil would be to avoid giving the advice. it's simply a matter of how we prioritize prevention with respect to remediation. If wearing (or not wearing) certain clothes were actually legitimate methods of prevention, then I would probably agree with you. But I have never seen any study that shows that the type of clothing worn by the victim either increases or decreases the chance of being raped. In fact, the last study I saw about the issue showed that the most common piece of clothing worn by rape victims was a hoodie and/or sweat pants.
Would you please cite your statistics or studies that show that provocative clothing causes (or even correlates to) increased chance of rape? Thanks. Antecedents of sexual victimization: factors discriminating victims from nonvictims. Synovitz LB, Byrne TJ., J Am Coll Health. Jan;46(4):151-8. (1998) An Examination of Date Rape, Victim Dress, and Perceiver Variables Within the Context of Attribution Theory Workman JE, Freeburg EW., Sex Roles, Volume 41, Numbers 3-4, 261-277 (1995) ( analysis) This study found in part that the way a woman choose to dress is sometimes taken as a statement about her character including vulnerability, desire and/or willingness to have sex and provocation of males which consequently affects the likelihood of rape, including date rape. The effects of clothing and dyad sex composition on perceptions of sexual intent: Do women and men evaluate these cues differently. Abbey, A., Cozzarelli, C., McLaughlin, K., & Harnish, R. J. (1987) Journal of Applied Social Psychology, 17, 108–126. ( analysis) The study went on to infer that provocative dress can lead to an increased chance of date or spousal rape in some situations (primarily spousal and/or date rape).
|
|
Wisconsin Beth
Distinguished Associate
No, we don't walk away. But when we're holding on to something precious, we run.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:59:36 GMT -5
Posts: 30,626
|
Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 3, 2014 7:50:37 GMT -5
Ok, I just stood up and put my hands at my side to see what the "line" was. It's pretty high. I'm 5 foot 6 inches and have been this height since I was around 14-15. The girl is in 11th grade, which means she's about 16, give or take. So, if I went shopping at the teen stores, would I actually FIND short or skirts that fit these requirements? Weren't we talking about this last week on the thread about feeding a growing girl? That finding clothing is not always easy? And there was a story fairly recently (April maybe?) about a protest for girls wearing leggings to school - because the school at one point was claiming that the girls wearing leggings were a distraction to the boys learning. I think the school's restated their stance since then. (waves arms madly) ohh, ohh - that was me!!! I normally shop for DD at Kohl's. Now that's she's getting into slutsville junior sizes I have to change stores. I was SHOCKED at what they have hanging on the racks in the Jr.'s dept. Just for grins and giggles I had her try on one pair of shorts that I knew wouldn't pass muster. She would not even come out of the dressing room to show it to me. -pray-Man do I hope this modesty lasts! For shits and giggles, last night I had DD stand up, hands on her sides to see if she'd pass. She failed by an inch or so. She's 6. And admittedly, she wears her skirts,shorts and pants hiked up to her waist instead of letting them ride a bit lower than that. I've been letting it go because she's decently covered and this way I don't have to worry about butt crack showing. So, the standard clothes my daughter wears at the age of 6 don't meet this school's dress code. Now back to page 2 to finish reading the discussion.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jun 3, 2014 7:52:35 GMT -5
Do you find it at all ironic that in one of the last discussions we had, you were quite dismissive of the study and data I cited because it was from the '90s, yet the first study you cite is using data from the '80s and '90s?
BTW, I'm not discounting the study you cite, am interested and still reading it - just pointing out the inconsistency.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Jun 3, 2014 7:57:09 GMT -5
Do you find it at all ironic that in one of the last discussions we had, you were quite dismissive of the study and data I cited because it was from the '90s, yet the first study you cite is using data from the '80s and '90s?
BTW, I'm not discounting the study you cite, am interested and still reading it - just pointing out the inconsistency. Milee - I must've missed that thread. Would you mind posting a link?
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jun 3, 2014 8:02:47 GMT -5
I'm going to be away from the computer until later today. Meantime, can someone please find me a link to those studies that shows the full text rather than just the abstract or summary? Thanks.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Jun 3, 2014 8:04:28 GMT -5
Do you find it at all ironic that in one of the last discussions we had, you were quite dismissive of the study and data I cited because it was from the '90s, yet the first study you cite is using data from the '80s and '90s?
BTW, I'm not discounting the study you cite, am interested and still reading it - just pointing out the inconsistency. Milee - I must've missed that thread. Would you mind posting a link? I won't be at a computer until much later today. You could try a search - the discussion was on the same topic so you could search key terms like rape, hoodie, etc.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 3, 2014 8:09:19 GMT -5
Do you find it at all ironic that in one of the last discussions we had, you were quite dismissive of the study and data I cited because it was from the '90s, yet the first study you cite is using data from the '80s and '90s?
BTW, I'm not discounting the study you cite, am interested and still reading it - just pointing out the inconsistency. If you're talking about the SECASA article in the "denial" thread, I plainly accepted its conclusions and thanked you on several occasions for providing it. My being "quite dismissive" was limited to the initial criticism: "I do thank you for the article. I was dismayed to find that 2/3 of its reference section is missing. And the article is older than I am." "Older than I am" because the document claimed to be published in 1980. Even so, I did accept its conclusions.
|
|
Wisconsin Beth
Distinguished Associate
No, we don't walk away. But when we're holding on to something precious, we run.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:59:36 GMT -5
Posts: 30,626
|
Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 3, 2014 8:12:11 GMT -5
I can't believe you said this. Ok, from you I kind of can based on your previous posts, but SERIOUSLY? It ALWAYS matter's who is responsible when something bad happens. Always, always, always. The personal that does something bad/horrible/reprehensible/criminal is always the one at fault and always responsible because the CHOSE to do that bad thing. It doesn't matter if I took your hand that was holding a gun and put it up to my head, it is all your fault if you chose to pull the trigger. What I meant is that assigning blame won't undo the injustice. Some people have the mentality that we shouldn't give advice on avoiding danger since individuals who ignore the advice or aren't aware of it may feel responsible if they're victimized. And while I agree that giving advice can instill these feelings of guilt, the far greater evil would be to avoid giving the advice. In my view, ten victims is far worse than five victims and five non-victims, even if the five victims feel personally responsible for the wrong that befell them. It's not a perfect solution because there is no perfect solution; it's simply a matter of how we prioritize prevention with respect to remediation. And prevention starts young. My son is 4.5. We've spent the better part of the last 3 years working on "no hitting" with him because hitting (usually hard) is his response to not getting his way or showing he's mad. Raising kids is not for the faint of heart.
|
|
shanendoah
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 19:44:48 GMT -5
Posts: 10,096
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0c3563
|
Post by shanendoah on Jun 3, 2014 9:44:23 GMT -5
This is the last thing I'm going to say on this thread. I really do get why people do not want to see the connections, why they want to call it a slippery slope argument and pretend it doesn't really exist. Life is often easier that way. whoisjohngalt - my "honestly" was not meant sarcastically, and I apologize if that is the way you took it. It was more meant tiredly. No, the world is never going to be perfect, but I have a dream of my when my daughter grows up, of her and friends talking about being harassed on the street and it being a rare thing, something completely out of the ordinary for them, not the very common thing it is among the women I know.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 3, 2014 10:48:11 GMT -5
I have no problem with teaching boys to control their behavior and to treat women with respect.
But I also think we need to teach boys and girls to be aware of their surroundings and make smart decisions that affect their health and safety. And it doesn't just apply to rape, but any number of different situations.
I don't really care if the focus shifts to something else in a thread I start, I know once I release a thread into the wild I don't control the direction it takes. I'm just disapointed and frustrated some people seem to take the discussion, and differences of opinion personally.
I don't reall feel guilt or frustration over being a male in a discussion about rape culture. After all, I've never raped or attacked a woman, and I imagine Virgil or any other man here probably hasn't either. But I think in discussion on topics related to feminism, the male viewpoint is all too often ignored and dismissed as "you'll never get it" as Justme said.
|
|
Spellbound454
Senior Member
"In the end, we remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends"
Joined: Sept 9, 2011 17:28:42 GMT -5
Posts: 4,096
|
Post by Spellbound454 on Jun 3, 2014 10:53:32 GMT -5
Sorry to be late Smart uniform, correct shoes..... then other things for both sexes, ie stationary equipment, behaviour codes, planners signed by parents, letter received at home...rewards sanctions and anything I have to flag up with the pastoral teams. I've got responsibility for 30.. 14 year olds. They go off to their lessons ready for their day.
|
|
movingforward
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 12:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 8,385
|
Post by movingforward on Jun 3, 2014 11:02:03 GMT -5
The bottom line is that daisy duke shorts aren't appropriate dress for certain functions (school being one of them). Yes, a woman should be able to wear anything she wishes without being sexually harassed, etc. but I am not sure what that has to do with not wanting a teenager to show to school with her ass hanging out of her shorts. Kids need to learn how to dress for the situation and it has nothing to with what a man does or doesn't think... that is actually irrelevant IMO. Not sure why this thread even went there... maybe I missed something... Just as I wouldn't show up to work in short shorts the same should apply to schools. Not sure why teaching kids how to dress appropriately for the situation has to turn into something it isn't...
|
|
kent
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:13:46 GMT -5
Posts: 3,594
|
Post by kent on Jun 3, 2014 11:09:12 GMT -5
I'm not about to plow through all the comments but will add that when I was in school (a long time ago) shorts weren't in the picture anywhere. In fact, the school had a policy that "girls" couldn't wear red because it was "sexually stimulating" and "boys" had to wear a belt for some freaking reason or another.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 3, 2014 11:09:16 GMT -5
So, to try and tie this back to my original post.
Milee, Shannendoah, Justme and others are arguing that school dress codes are sexist and girls should be able to wear whatever they please. And that dress codes are a part of rape culture that makes girls responsible for boys actions. And this girl in the original article is in the right and standing up against rape culture, and was justified in wearing short shorts?
Do I have that right?
What's the solution then, not have a dress code?
|
|
movingforward
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 12:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 8,385
|
Post by movingforward on Jun 3, 2014 11:15:44 GMT -5
I'm not about to plow through all the comments but will add that when I was in school (a long time ago) shorts weren't in the picture anywhere. In fact, t he school had a policy that "girls" couldn't wear red because it was "sexually stimulating" and "boys" had to wear a belt for some freaking reason or another. For real?
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,090
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 3, 2014 11:17:11 GMT -5
boys" had to wear a belt for some freaking reason or another.The belt rule is in our dress code. It was hugely popular to wear extremely baggy/saggy pants when I was in HS. Then they had to elaborate because guys were still wearing their pants around their knees but were "wearing a belt" so could argue they weren't in violation. The belt has to be holding your pants up around your waist.
|
|