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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2014 19:00:10 GMT -5
We've debated this issue to such extent that we could probably write each other's posts at this point. I am finding quite disturbing that our society is becoming very intolerant to any point of view that is not "in" at the moment. And this topic is no exception. People who are saying that men are to blame completely exonerate women of any kind of responsibility. There doesn't seem to be any balance for that side of the argument. BTW, I am a heterosexual woman who has never had any kind of lesbian tendencies or fantasies and yet I would find very distracting if I had to constantly look at women's body parts that should be covered. I worked with one of those women. Wasn't fun at all. But again, that is your issue. Other people shouldn't have to curb their behavior because of how you might react to it... Your actions, your responsibility. You don't have to like it, and you might treat her differently because of it, and as long as it's not discriminatory or criminal that is your right as well... But she doesn't have to change her behavior so that you feel comfortable.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2014 19:04:24 GMT -5
We've debated this issue to such extent that we could probably write each other's posts at this point. I am finding quite disturbing that our society is becoming very intolerant to any point of view that is not "in" at the moment. And this topic is no exception. People who are saying that men are to blame completely exonerate women of any kind of responsibility. There doesn't seem to be any balance for that side of the argument. BTW, I am a heterosexual woman who has never had any kind of lesbian tendencies or fantasies and yet I would find very distracting if I had to constantly look at women's body parts that should be covered. I worked with one of those women. Wasn't fun at all. But again, that is your issue. Other people shouldn't have to curb their behavior because of how you might react to it... Your actions, your responsibility. You don't have to like it, and you might treat her differently because of it, and as long as it's not discriminatory or criminal that is your right as well... But she doesn't have to change her behavior so that you feel comfortable. But you are asking me to curb MY behaviour. If I can see your boobs, are you going to be upset if I am starring at them? Bc here and on similar threads the notion has always been that "I" can't look and *I* can't say anything to you but you can stick your boobs in my face as much as you want. That's the double standard I don't like. Other than that, I always preach personal responsibility for one's actions. OT - BTW, if you are done planning, I would love to chit chat
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jun 2, 2014 19:05:05 GMT -5
So is the reason that boys can't wear speedos around the halls because girls can't control themselves? It's not sexist if it applies to both sexes. No. The reason is that seeing male band me3mebers in speedos would be downright scary. The robotic club, even worse!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2014 19:15:23 GMT -5
Exceptionally good-looking people are distracting. Exceptionally ugly people are distracting. People who dress funny are distracting even if they are within the guidelines for a dress code.
I agree with Rukh that something that looks fine on my slender build would look entirely different on someone more curvy. We have a pretty lax dress code at my job and we can wear shorts but I think they're suppose to be close to your knees. One lady regularly wore shorter shorts (not so short that her butt was even close to hanging out) and she got away with it because she's so small and petite. I have no doubt that a bigger, curvier woman would've got sent home for wearing the same style shorts.
I don't like the fingertip rule. I'm too old to wear itty bitty shorts in public but I'm not going to stick to shorts that fit the fingertip guideline either. My arms are so long that many long-sleeve shirts and jackets that fit my body properly, the sleeves are too short. Bermuda shorts don't look good on me, so all my shorts stop well above my fingertips when I'm standing up straight.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2014 19:17:35 GMT -5
I am fully aware that some clothes I wear will cause some people to look. But ya know what, most of the world doesn't stare slack jawed. And even if they did, it's not my responsibility to keep their jaw in the proper position. And people looking at me has rarely bothered me - only the few slack jawed leering guys, and when I see them I move away because I don't want to see them behave that way.
But there's no clothing choice out that gives another person consent to touch me. None. And that's where the problem is. Because some people think that certain clothing choices DO give consent without having to ask it - or at the very least lowers the bar of consent below actually asking the woman before you touch her. Lowers it so much that she was asking for it or should have expected that someone would touch her.
And the mind frame that gets us there - that gets us thinking that clothing lowers the bar of consent from a woman - is the thought that woman have to wear clothing to keep guys from staring at them. That wearing certain clothing gives men consent to stare slack jawed. When our parents have told us since we were little that it's not polite to stare and it's a societal belief that it's not polite to stare.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jun 2, 2014 19:27:24 GMT -5
Virgil is right. Responding to any inappropriate behavior of a man towards a woman with anything other than sympathy for the "victem" is labled as "blaming the victem." ok - really? And - why is "victim" quoted? because they aren't a victim? Because even in the hypothetical - you can't even imagine anything that would make a woman a truly innocent victim? And what exactly besides sympathy should you show to any victim? Anyone who experiences harassment, bullying, assault.....when and exactly how do you display your non-sympathetic reaction? Because he's blaming the "victem," whatever the hell that is.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 2, 2014 19:40:00 GMT -5
Personally? Never. But then again I have never personally experienced the opposite either. I don't personally know any women who have been attacked, for what they wore or otherwise.As far as going places, the same. But I have always lived in fairly safe areas and not been that concerned about my personal safety. Anyways, as I said, we're getting off topic of dress codes and should and why they exist. Based on what you're saying, the distraction argument doesn't hold water, and school dress codes only exist because work dress codes exist. Then why do work dress codes exist? No, I'm saying it shouldn't because the distraction put it on girls that they and what they wear are responsible for boys actions. Unless someone tells me otherwise, I've always thought they existed because at some point along the line being dressed up became what professionals did. It probably started back when guys always wore suits to work. So when females started entering the professional work force the dressed similarly. Either in suits themselves or similarly covered. And then the different levels evolved from there. I've never been in a job where shorts are ok for men, but not for women. The dress is across the same for both genders, just slightly modified due to females having the option of wearing skirts/dresses. As for the bold. Do you know any women that HAVE been attacked? And if so have you heard what other people have said about that night? Here's a thought process for you - you hear about a woman getting attacked, raped and beaten. What is the very first question that pops into your head? Not the first question you would be ok with uttering out lout, but the very first question you have about the situation? I agree with your assertion that girls are just as attracted to boys, and that boys can be distracting. The reason it was originally spun was because the original article was about a girl violating the dress code. But yes, I agree that if it were reversed I would have the same sentiment, that it could be distracting for girls as well.
I also agree that the reason a dress code exists in part is as training for the professional world, but I also think it exists in part to avoid distractions for both male AND female students.
No, I don't personally know any women who have been physically assaulted or raped (or men for that matter). If you want my honest answer, I don't really "ask questions" when I hear about someone being attacked on the news. My reaction to the news of a woman I don't know being attacked, beaten, and raped is the same reaction I get when I hear about a gang shooting or similar violent crime. My reaction is "that's too bad" and "I hope they'll be okay" and I move on with my life knowing that shit happens, bad things happen to good people, and there's nothing I can do about it. Generally I don't spend too much time or worry about things I can't control. I don't usually try to play guessing games about weather or not if they "had it coming."
So I don't ask myself questions, and if I do, the first one is "will they be ok."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2014 19:43:24 GMT -5
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jun 2, 2014 19:54:52 GMT -5
Why do we have dress codes? Because for centuries men have been trying to control women and one of the most outward symbols of control is not giving someone choices over what they wear. For centuries the rich have been trying to control the poor and to differentiate themselves and outward appearances are one of the easiest ways to draw societal lines.
Dress codes have always been about control.
When my mother was in grade school, girls could not wear pants. Do you know why there are girls' bikes and boys' bikes? The girls' bikes needed to be made so that they would not disrupt the flow of a long skirt.
Times change. Dress codes change. But they don't change all by themselves. It requires people challenging them. By the time I was in grade school, no one thought twice about me wearing pants. In fact, most girls I knew wore jeans every day, something my mother never would have dreamed of wearing to school, even if she did wish she could wear a pair of slacks.
We have, as a society, deemed certain attire appropriate or inappropriate for certain occasions. But I have worked in professional offices with dress codes and "casual Fridays" and I will tell you, no one is worse at their job just because they are wearing jeans. In a professional environment, no one uses the excuse that Jane is wearing skinny jeans as a reason as to why they can't get their work done.
What you are wearing has ZERO effect on your ability to learn or to work, unless YOU let it. (And that includes choosing to wear something so uncomfortable that you are constantly distracted. That is YOUR choice.)
The excuse that some boys, or even most boys, don't WANT to curb their impulses when it comes to looking at girls does NOT hold up as a reason for dress codes. We have simply, as a male dominated society, decided over the years that instead of trying to teach boys to control their impulses that we should instead forcibly change the behavior of girls.
It is only now, how many years after women got the vote, how many years after Gloria Steinem that our young women are pushing back, that they are finally asking- why should I be forced to change (literally and figuratively) so that boys don't have to? Why aren't we enforcing a code of behavior on our young men as strictly as we're trying to enforce a code of dress on our young women?
Do boys want to learn how to control their leering? Of course not. But they most likely don't want to learn the subjunctive tense either. But somehow, we think one is more important than the other. And it's true, one is. Sadly, for most of human history, we've been giving the wrong answer.
It is this attitude that no matter what, some boys will be distracted and therefore we can't let girls wear what they want that exactly leads to victim blaming and rape culture. Of course people, and especially men, including good men, don't want to see it. It SUCKS. It's hurtful. Realizing that some of the most important people in your life are continually objectified, treated as if their existence only matters in relation to how men react to them, is PAINFUL. And goodness yes, how nice it is to bury your head in the sand, to not admit that you, as part of society, are a part of this culture, and partially at fault. Just a quick note- we are ALL partially at fault. Women as well as men. And the way to stop that is to start admitting there is a problem, to open your eyes to seeing it.
It's that fine line- when does "he's hitting her because he likes her" turn from cute to domestic abuse? Because it's cute when a 5 year old boy hits a 5 year old girl and the adults smile and giggle "oh he likes her", but what about when a 25 year old man hits a 25 year old women, and claims he does it because he loves her?
And YES, this is in fact tied to dress codes because instead of teaching our boys appropriate behavior at the appropriate age, we somehow expect them to reach adulthood and magically know how to treat women with respect, etc, and we blame the "bad apples" in the group for ruining it for all men, without ever questioning what society is teaching.
I have had this discussion with my father. And it is a painful one for him. He has asked me- "Did I ever tell you you could not do something because you were a girl? Didn't I tell you you could do anything you wanted?" And the truth is, my father is wonderfully supportive. BUT He took me shooting as a kid. I loved going shooting. I was as good a shot as my brother. No one ever gave me a gun for Christmas. My brother was (and still is) a better cook than I am. He loved helping Mom bake. No one ever gave him an Easy Bake Oven or child sized blender as a kid.
So yes, I am proud of this generation of girls- this one in Canada, the middle-schoolers fighting the "no leggings" rule -who are standing up and saying "Why is this about what girls wear instead of about how boys react?"
AND, I am proud of society for getting to a point where girls are feeling empowered to ask these questions. My mother barely questioned the "no pants" rule. She could never have imagined standing up to authority the way these girls are. We have come very far. And conversations like this are a symbol of how far we have come. But that does NOT mean we have reached the goal. Having come so far does NOT mean it is time to stop, to be "grateful for what we have". If we keep only moving half-way there, no matter how far we've come, we'll never reach the finish line.
All of that said- I won't let Pop Tart leave the house wearing pants with words across the butt. I think they are tacky. But my mother would not let me leave my room wearing red pants and a pink shirt, because she thought that was tacky.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 2, 2014 19:56:10 GMT -5
Virgil is right. Responding to any inappropriate behavior of a man towards a woman with anything other than sympathy for the "victem" is labled as "blaming the victem." ok - really? And - why is "victim" quoted? because they aren't a victim? Because even in the hypothetical - you can't even imagine anything that would make a woman a truly innocent victim? And what exactly besides sympathy should you show to any victim? Anyone who experiences harassment, bullying, assault.....when and exactly how do you display your non-sympathetic reaction? *shrugs* I don't know why I quoted victim, probably because "blaming the victim" is a common phrase thrown out in response to any suggestion that people exercise prudence in judgment.
I have stated in several posts now that I think people control their own behavior. This means that no matter what you wear or do or whatever, it's never okay for someone to touch you or assault you or whatever. That's never okay, period, end of story. And whatever someone does do to you is entirely their choice. And no, I don't think any piece of clothing (or lack there of) lowers the bar of consent, as Justme said.
So, going with this idea that people control their own actions, it stands to reason that by extension, you have a duty to exercise prudent judgment in your actions to try and prevent misfortune from befalling you. That doesn't mean it'll always work, and nothing bad will ever happen to you, and it doesn't mean that if something bad does happen to you it's your fault and others are absolved of all guilt or wrongdoing. It just means I control my own behavior, and I have a mandate to look after my self interest and exercise prudent judgment for my safety and well being.
I work in safety. That's my job, it's what I do for a living. We don't just wait until someone gets hurt on the job and console them and tell them they did nothing wrong and nothing could have been done. Instead, we're proactive. We give the workers training, teach situational awareness, we provide safety equipment. We try to head things off before an accident even occurs. No, it doesn't prevent all accidents, and some things that happen no one could ever have planned for, but at the same time, our efforts reduce the overall incidence of accidents in the workplace and save a lot of pain and suffering.
I agree, it's tacky when something bad happens to someone, like that girl who fell off a cliff by getting too close, and say "you shouldn't have done that" or "you should have done this." Ideally people would exercise common sense and exercise situational awareness and plan ahead so bad stuff doesn't happen so often. That's all I'm saying.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jun 2, 2014 20:06:34 GMT -5
As for the tired argument of "but if you left your car unlocked in a bad part of town, then weren't you really asking for your car to be stolen?" The answer to that is the same as the answer to "but she wore a short skirt, wasn't she asking to be harassed/raped?" And it is ALWAYS a resounding NO.
NO ONE ever asks to be a victim of a crime (with the exception of the people who are themselves trying to commit the crime of insurance fraud). I do not care if I leave my car unlocked outside the home of a known car thief. I have done NOTHING wrong. I have broken NO LAWS. I could leave a note on my car that said "Please, steal me", and guess what, the person who stole the care would STILL be the person committing the crime. And in a court of law, when they tried to use the excuse of "but they asked for it", it would NOT hold up. Because we all understand that stealing a car is WRONG. It is always WRONG.
And yet somehow, we don't have that same message when it comes to rape or sexual harassment. We seem to think there are gray areas. That consent can be given by appearances, by prior actions, even when current behavior specifically revokes consent. And that's where we need to change. There is no gray area. Rape is ALWAYS WRONG.
And I know, I know this was a post about dress codes being sexist, but that's the thing about societal lessons. You learn the small ones, and they carry over to the big ones. And telling girls they are responsible for boys' behavior and therefore have to dress a certain way is the same as telling boys they are not responsible for their own behavior around women and therefore have the right to treat them anyway they want, especially if they are wearing an outfit that, for the boy, enhances their attractiveness.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2014 20:21:02 GMT -5
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2014 20:24:21 GMT -5
Why do we have dress codes? Because for centuries men have been trying to control women and one of the most outward symbols of control is not giving someone choices over what they wear. For centuries the rich have been trying to control the poor and to differentiate themselves and outward appearances are one of the easiest ways to draw societal lines. Dress codes have always been about control. When my mother was in grade school, girls could not wear pants. Do you know why there are girls' bikes and boys' bikes? The girls' bikes needed to be made so that they would not disrupt the flow of a long skirt. Times change. Dress codes change. But they don't change all by themselves. It requires people challenging them. By the time I was in grade school, no one thought twice about me wearing pants. In fact, most girls I knew wore jeans every day, something my mother never would have dreamed of wearing to school, even if she did wish she could wear a pair of slacks. We have, as a society, deemed certain attire appropriate or inappropriate for certain occasions. But I have worked in professional offices with dress codes and "casual Fridays" and I will tell you, no one is worse at their job just because they are wearing jeans. In a professional environment, no one uses the excuse that Jane is wearing skinny jeans as a reason as to why they can't get their work done. What you are wearing has ZERO effect on your ability to learn or to work, unless YOU let it. (And that includes choosing to wear something so uncomfortable that you are constantly distracted. That is YOUR choice.) The excuse that some boys, or even most boys, don't WANT to curb their impulses when it comes to looking at girls does NOT hold up as a reason for dress codes. We have simply, as a male dominated society, decided over the years that instead of trying to teach boys to control their impulses that we should instead forcibly change the behavior of girls. It is only now, how many years after women got the vote, how many years after Gloria Steinem that our young women are pushing back, that they are finally asking- why should I be forced to change (literally and figuratively) so that boys don't have to? Why aren't we enforcing a code of behavior on our young men as strictly as we're trying to enforce a code of dress on our young women? Do boys want to learn how to control their leering? Of course not. But they most likely don't want to learn the subjunctive tense either. But somehow, we think one is more important than the other. And it's true, one is. Sadly, for most of human history, we've been giving the wrong answer. It is this attitude that no matter what, some boys will be distracted and therefore we can't let girls wear what they want that exactly leads to victim blaming and rape culture. Of course people, and especially men, including good men, don't want to see it. It SUCKS. It's hurtful. Realizing that some of the most important people in your life are continually objectified, treated as if their existence only matters in relation to how men react to them, is PAINFUL. And goodness yes, how nice it is to bury your head in the sand, to not admit that you, as part of society, are a part of this culture, and partially at fault. Just a quick note- we are ALL partially at fault. Women as well as men. And the way to stop that is to start admitting there is a problem, to open your eyes to seeing it. It's that fine line- when does "he's hitting her because he likes her" turn from cute to domestic abuse? Because it's cute when a 5 year old boy hits a 5 year old girl and the adults smile and giggle "oh he likes her", but what about when a 25 year old man hits a 25 year old women, and claims he does it because he loves her? And YES, this is in fact tied to dress codes because instead of teaching our boys appropriate behavior at the appropriate age, we somehow expect them to reach adulthood and magically know how to treat women with respect, etc, and we blame the "bad apples" in the group for ruining it for all men, without ever questioning what society is teaching. I have had this discussion with my father. And it is a painful one for him. He has asked me- "Did I ever tell you you could not do something because you were a girl? Didn't I tell you you could do anything you wanted?" And the truth is, my father is wonderfully supportive. BUT He took me shooting as a kid. I loved going shooting. I was as good a shot as my brother. No one ever gave me a gun for Christmas. My brother was (and still is) a better cook than I am. He loved helping Mom bake. No one ever gave him an Easy Bake Oven or child sized blender as a kid. So yes, I am proud of this generation of girls- this one in Canada, the middle-schoolers fighting the "no leggings" rule -who are standing up and saying "Why is this about what girls wear instead of about how boys react?" AND, I am proud of society for getting to a point where girls are feeling empowered to ask these questions. My mother barely questioned the "no pants" rule. She could never have imagined standing up to authority the way these girls are. We have come very far. And conversations like this are a symbol of how far we have come. But that does NOT mean we have reached the goal. Having come so far does NOT mean it is time to stop, to be "grateful for what we have". If we keep only moving half-way there, no matter how far we've come, we'll never reach the finish line. All of that said- I won't let Pop Tart leave the house wearing pants with words across the butt. I think they are tacky. But my mother would not let me leave my room wearing red pants and a pink shirt, because she thought that was tacky. What IS the goal, exactly?
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2014 20:25:16 GMT -5
Did you miss the part that it doesn't matter what I wear, men catcall from their cars or windows at me? That it doesn't matter what I wear I've had a stranger grab my ass? That it doesn't matter how covered up I am on dating websites I am getting at least one message a day from a guy asking for a bj or sex in crude and often derogatory language?
What I wear prevents NONE of this. I'm not sure how to articulate it more clearly than my experience, and the experience of my friends, and the experience of most women. It doesn't matter what we wear, these things still happen.
ETA: Or how about the few times at a bar when a guy has been hitting on me and a rebuff him and he responds with "come on girl, you know you want to stop playing with me" and starts to grab on me. I tell him no again and it's not until I grab his hands off me and push him away that he maybe gets the hint. I've had to leave a bar before because the guy hasn't. I've had to make a guy friend pretend he's my bf for a guy to back of because me saying no is not enough. I've had to send a guy over to pretend with my friend because the guy grabbing her wouldn't listen to her OR me, but suddenly a guy goes over and puts an arm around her and he disappears.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2014 20:33:11 GMT -5
Did you miss the part that it doesn't matter what I wear, men catcall from their cars or windows at me? That it doesn't matter what I wear I've had a stranger grab my ass? That it doesn't matter how covered up I am on dating websites I am getting at least one message a day from a guy asking for a bj or sex in crude and often derogatory language? What I wear prevents NONE of this. I'm not sure how to articulate it more clearly than my experience, and the experience of my friends, and the experience of most women. It doesn't matter what we wear, these things still happen. ETA: Or how about the few times at a bar when a guy has been hitting on me and a rebuff him and he responds with "come on girl, you know you want to stop playing with me" and starts to grab on me. I tell him no again and it's not until I grab his hands off me and push him away that he maybe gets the hint. I've had to leave a bar before because the guy hasn't. I've had to make a guy friend pretend he's my bf for a guy to back of because me saying no is not enough. I've had to send a guy over to pretend with my friend because the guy grabbing her wouldn't listen to her OR me, but suddenly a guy goes over and puts an arm around her and he disappears. You must be drop dead gorgeous!!! Did you ever post a pic on the thread where everyone was sharing pics? I need to go dig it up ETA: I never considered myself or my friends that ugly but I don't recall things like that ever happening to us. In a bar - sure. Sometimes randomly. Sure. But not all the time. The way you are describing it is like you can't leave the house without someone oogling you. Wow
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2014 20:41:54 GMT -5
Did you miss the part that it doesn't matter what I wear, men catcall from their cars or windows at me? That it doesn't matter what I wear I've had a stranger grab my ass? That it doesn't matter how covered up I am on dating websites I am getting at least one message a day from a guy asking for a bj or sex in crude and often derogatory language? What I wear prevents NONE of this. I'm not sure how to articulate it more clearly than my experience, and the experience of my friends, and the experience of most women. It doesn't matter what we wear, these things still happen. ETA: Or how about the few times at a bar when a guy has been hitting on me and a rebuff him and he responds with "come on girl, you know you want to stop playing with me" and starts to grab on me. I tell him no again and it's not until I grab his hands off me and push him away that he maybe gets the hint. I've had to leave a bar before because the guy hasn't. I've had to make a guy friend pretend he's my bf for a guy to back of because me saying no is not enough. I've had to send a guy over to pretend with my friend because the guy grabbing her wouldn't listen to her OR me, but suddenly a guy goes over and puts an arm around her and he disappears. You must be drop dead gorgeous!!! Did you ever post a pic on the thread where everyone was sharing pics? I need to go dig it up ETA: I never considered myself or my friends that ugly but I don't recall things like that ever happening to us. In a bar - sure. Sometimes randomly. Sure. But not all the time. The way you are describing it is like you can't leave the house without someone oogling you. Wow I wouldn't say that, but most have said I'm attractive. And no, I didn't. I think it petered out before I got a photo on an anonymous thread. Now, that doesn't happen all the time, actually most of the time. Thankfully. The world isn't full of asshats like that. I think I'd be afraid to go out if it was a regular occurrence. And I'm 28 and still single, so I've been going to bars/clubs/parties for 10 years now. It's tapered off as I've gotten older (whether that's because I'm not as attractive or I listen to my gut feelings quick is a toss up ), but the last instance happened a few months ago. So maybe once a year unless I have a run of bad luck, but it still makes you feel something awful after that stuff happens.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2014 20:50:24 GMT -5
I feel soooooo old, I can't even remember the last time I was in a bar....
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2014 21:03:03 GMT -5
I can't believe you said this. Ok, from you I kind of can based on your previous posts, but SERIOUSLY? It ALWAYS matter's who is responsible when something bad happens. Always, always, always. The personal that does something bad/horrible/reprehensible/criminal is always the one at fault and always responsible because the CHOSE to do that bad thing. It doesn't matter if I took your hand that was holding a gun and put it up to my head, it is all your fault if you chose to pull the trigger. What I meant is that assigning blame won't undo the injustice. Some people have the mentality that we shouldn't give advice on avoiding danger since individuals who ignore the advice or aren't aware of it may feel responsible if they're victimized. And while I agree that giving advice can instill these feelings of guilt, the far greater evil would be to avoid giving the advice. In my view, ten victims is far worse than five victims and five non-victims, even if the five victims feel personally responsible for the wrong that befell them. It's not a perfect solution because there is no perfect solution; it's simply a matter of how we prioritize prevention with respect to remediation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2014 21:07:10 GMT -5
When was the last time you or you heard someone say a man was attacked because of what he was wearing. Not where he was, or what he was doing, but simply because of what he was wearing he should have expected for him to be attacked? Also, when was the last time you said or heard that ___ was unsafe for a guy to go there? Not a guy or a girl. Just a guy. That a girl would be safe going there alone, but a guy would not. Personally? Never. But then again I have never personally experienced the opposite either. I don't personally know any women who have been attacked, for what they wore or otherwise. As far as going places, the same. But I have always lived in fairly safe areas and not been that concerned about my personal safety. Anyways, as I said, we're getting off topic of dress codes and should and why they exist. Based on what you're saying, the distraction argument doesn't hold water, and school dress codes only exist because work dress codes exist. Then why do work dress codes exist? Yes you do know women that have been attacked, just based on the numbers because you know women. They may not tell you, most men I know don't know that I was attacked when I was 12, wearing my school uniform. And guess what guys this is why I left, and I think I am following beer. Not being here is not enough, I'm gone.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2014 21:11:38 GMT -5
Oooh! I have a question for Virgil or Phoenix. It's a couple parter, but you need to respond to get the next part. When you are out at night with a friends - one female and another male. It's at the end of the evening and you all have parked in opposite directions. And, for arguments sake, the other male just wants to go straight to his car. Do you a) part ways with everyone and the exit of the establishment or b) walk the female to her car? It would depend on where we were. If my wife was with me, she'd insist on us all going together to our friend's car, so there wouldn't be much of a decision to make. If it was just me and a female friend in a city late at night (which to the best of my recollection is a situation I've never been in), I'd probably walk her to her car.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2014 21:13:52 GMT -5
Oooh! I have a question for Virgil or Phoenix. It's a couple parter, but you need to respond to get the next part. When you are out at night with a friends - one female and another male. It's at the end of the evening and you all have parked in opposite directions. And, for arguments sake, the other male just wants to go straight to his car. Do you a) part ways with everyone and the exit of the establishment or b) walk the female to her car? It would depend on where we were. If my wife was with me, she'd insist on us all going together to our friend's car, so there wouldn't be much of a decision to make. If it was just me and a female friend in a city late at night (which to the best of my recollection is a situation I've never been in), I'd probably walk her to her car. So, at what level of attire would she be appropriately dressed where she wouldn't need an escort? Shorts and a tank top? Jeans and a tank top? Jeans and a sweater? Jeans with a wool coat and a hat?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2014 21:22:21 GMT -5
It would depend on where we were. If my wife was with me, she'd insist on us all going together to our friend's car, so there wouldn't be much of a decision to make. If it was just me and a female friend in a city late at night (which to the best of my recollection is a situation I've never been in), I'd probably walk her to her car. So, at what level of attire would she be appropriately dressed where she wouldn't need an escort? Shorts and a tank top? Jeans and a tank top? Jeans and a sweater? Jeans with a wool coat and a hat? Her apparel wouldn't matter. Some predators pursue women they find especially attractive; some pursue any woman that crosses their path. Muggers/thieves will pursue pretty much anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2014 21:26:39 GMT -5
Those crazy Canadians are at it again. shine.yahoo.com/parenting/lindsey-stocker-dress-code-shorts-beaconsfield-high-school-quebec-canada-153056456.htmlBasically, this girl was wearing denim short shorts and they made her put her hands to her side and judged she violated the school dress code. She then went around the school putting up posters that read: "Don't humiliate her because she is wearing shorts. It's h ot outside. Instead of shaming girls for their bodies, teach boys that girls are not sexual objects." The administration took the signs down and suspended her for a day. So what do you think? Are school dress codes sexist and meant to "body shame" girls? Not out of bounds or body shaming. Not rigid enough at the schools my kids went to. Jr High kids looking like street hookers. Or maybe just like that Snooki character: High Makeup, tacky clothes, lots of skin and cleavage showing.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2014 21:32:23 GMT -5
So, at what level of attire would she be appropriately dressed where she wouldn't need an escort? Shorts and a tank top? Jeans and a tank top? Jeans and a sweater? Jeans with a wool coat and a hat? Her apparel wouldn't matter. Some predators pursue women they find especially attractive; some pursue any woman that crosses their path. Muggers/thieves will pursue pretty much anyone. So then why talk about appropriate dress? And how girls/women need to dress modestly? If they'll do it regardless of what she's wearing? If you'll escort her no matter what? If dress has no factor on whether you would deem her safe or not to walk by herself then why does it a play a factor into whether she may have brought the attack/rape on herself?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2014 22:21:34 GMT -5
Her apparel wouldn't matter. Some predators pursue women they find especially attractive; some pursue any woman that crosses their path. Muggers/thieves will pursue pretty much anyone. So then why talk about appropriate dress? And how girls/women need to dress modestly? If they'll do it regardless of what she's wearing? If you'll escort her no matter what? If dress has no factor on whether you would deem her safe or not to walk by herself then why does it a play a factor into whether she may have brought the attack/rape on herself? Some will do it regardless of what she's wearing. Others won't. There's a reason prostitutes dress like prostitutes, and why lingerie stores exist. Provocative dress stimulates sexual appetites--in both sexes.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 2, 2014 22:29:52 GMT -5
Lingerie and shorts or a short skirt are very separate and different things.
I'd also like to point out there's a lot of prostitutes out there that don't dress like you think they would. Instead they're in designer clothing.
And, again, until I'm blue in the face, dress does not give consent nor does it give excuses. A woman should be able to walk down the street buck ass naked and not be afraid of someone putting their hands on them. The sad reality is a lot are scared to walk down the street along in a skirt and a tank top.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2014 22:30:14 GMT -5
huh, i guess we lost another poster in the last hour or so.
BTW, I find it very insulting that any time this discussion comes up, someone ALWAYS brings up rape.
I challenge any of you to search this board from its inception to find even one post/poster who ever said or implied that rape was OK/justified if the woman was dressed a certain way.
Very hard to take an argument seriously from anyone who bring that point into a discussion.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 2, 2014 22:34:14 GMT -5
Personally? Never. But then again I have never personally experienced the opposite either. I don't personally know any women who have been attacked, for what they wore or otherwise. As far as going places, the same. But I have always lived in fairly safe areas and not been that concerned about my personal safety. Anyways, as I said, we're getting off topic of dress codes and should and why they exist. Based on what you're saying, the distraction argument doesn't hold water, and school dress codes only exist because work dress codes exist. Then why do work dress codes exist? Yes you do know women that have been attacked, just based on the numbers because you know women. They may not tell you, most men I know don't know that I was attacked when I was 12, wearing my school uniform. And guess what guys this is why I left, and I think I am following beer. Not being here is not enough, I'm gone. Well, I know Gin left, but any idea what she's talking about? "Not being here is not enough?"
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 2, 2014 22:35:12 GMT -5
huh, i guess we lost another poster in the last hour or so. BTW, I find it very insulting that any time this discussion comes up, someone ALWAYS brings up rape. I challenge any of you to search this board from its inception to find even one post/poster who ever said or implied that rape was OK/justified if the woman was dressed a certain way. Very hard to take an argument seriously from anyone who bring that point into a discussion. I don't know. I haven't seen anyone arguing for or justifying rape or rapists. Some people can't have a rational conversation it seems.
And just for the record (again) this thread was never intended to be about rape, but dress codes.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 2, 2014 22:37:10 GMT -5
Lingerie and shorts or a short skirt are very separate and different things. I'd also like to point out there's a lot of prostitutes out there that don't dress like you think they would. Instead they're in designer clothing. And, again, until I'm blue in the face, dress does not give consent nor does it give excuses. A woman should be able to walk down the street buck ass naked and not be afraid of someone putting their hands on them. The sad reality is a lot are scared to walk down the street along in a skirt and a tank top. Just curious, where are you getting this idea that people are justifying rape or saying clothing gives consent?
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