Would you please be my litmus test group?

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I work in a junior/senior high school. This scenario is about seventh and eighth graders. 
I spent thirty minutes with a parent today who was not rude at all, but she was trying to convince me of something. 

Her son called another boy the n-word. The other boy is black. (He is one of two black kids in our school. Our school has about 10% Hispanic students and 25% Native American students.) The offender is white. 
The boys explained the situation to me. I talked to some other witnesses. I decided the word was used as slang and not as intentional name-calling. Kind of like if it had been two black kids using the word towards each other. I gave the offender 1/2 day of ISS. 

The mom came in today upset with me because her son didn't tell me that the other boy had called him a name first. She believes the other boy should be given the same punishment. I agreed that the other boy shouldn't be calling her son names and that her son does have the right to tell another student to stop but that the n-word is never acceptable. She insists that the name the other boy called her son is just as bad as the n-word. I agreed to talk with the other boy to find out if he would admit to calling her son names. I also suggested that we might need to do some small group work with this group of boys if they're calling each other names often and the kids are getting this frustrated with each other. 

So, here's the other name. 

SPOILER: Click to show

{SPOILER! Click to show}
Ginger. Yes, the son/n-word user is a red head.

What do you think? 

[midjd]

As a member of the same demographic as the person who used the n-word, that is not even close to being as bad. Not even close. I'm not even sure it's an insult in all contexts. I wouldn't take offense unless it were prefaced by "you stupid ____" or similar.

I forget which comedian (Jon Stewart?) said "if you're comparing two slurs, and one is so bad you can't even say it, but refer to it as the ____ word, THAT'S the worse one!"

Is that what you were asking?

[Phoenix84]

I'm not sure I'd spend too much effort differentiating between which name is worse. Obviously neither should be used in a negative way.

If the first name used was used in such a way as to be insulting, I would consider it worthy of punishment.

[Miss Tequila]

I don't believe that one insult is worse than another. To me, saying that a slur against a black person is worse than a slur against a non-black person just adds to the racial divide.

[truthbound]

Yeah let's ask folks on the internets for their opinion. Everyone admitted they were using slang and you still suspended them? Kids have been insulting other kids since the beginning of time. I was told how inferior I was because I was white and it didn't affect me. You should tell mom to grow a spine.

[Deleted]

I didn't know calling someone a ginger was suppose to be an insult. Seriously.

[Cookies Galore]

Wow. A ginger. That poor, poor child! I hope he recovers from that insult.

ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME?! The one kid needs a lesson in appropriate taunting if he thought the n-word (or even the f"riendly with an a" version) was the logical response to ginger. Give me a f*cking break.

[midjd]

May 14, 2014 4:26:31 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I don't believe that one insult is worse than another. To me, saying that a slur against a black person is worse than a slur against a non-black person just adds to the racial divide.

I don't think the race of the person being insulted is the point, it's the insult itself.

If one white kid called another white kid a dork, and the kid responded with the n-word (or c-word, etc) are those insults the same to you?

Same principle behind hell, ass, and damn not being censored on TV while fuck is. Some words are worse than others.

[Cookies Galore]

May 14, 2014 5:37:28 GMT -5 midjd said:

May 14, 2014 4:26:31 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I don't believe that one insult is worse than another. To me, saying that a slur against a black person is worse than a slur against a non-black person just adds to the racial divide.

I don't think the race of the person being insulted is the point, it's the insult itself.

If one white kid called another white kid a dork, and the kid responded with the n-word (or c-word, etc) are those insults the same to you?

Same principle behind hell, ass, and damn not being censored on TV while fuck is. Some words are worse than others.

Exactly. I would call someone a bitch, but I will never use the c-word. Different words have different level of meaning.

[plugginaway22]

OMG nothing worse than 'those' kind of parents.  Kudos to you for doing that job.

[Deleted]

My first instinct is to say no, not even close. 

I looked it up, and there might be contexts though...

Are they British? Apparently in some areas Ginger is used to degredate Irish populations, so the context would be similar. 

Also apparently South Park once did an episode in which they actually used ginger basically as a 'metaphor' for the n word? ... Given the age of the students, that could be taken literally??

Mostly, with name calling, and the n word, etc. I think intent and response are important. Was the kid really upset by the ginger comment? Or did he just want the other kid in trouble too? Were they using them the same way? 

[giramomma]

May 14, 2014 5:05:03 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I didn't know calling someone a ginger was suppose to be an insult. Seriously.

Honestly, though the mom sounds like what I do in my house. When my older two kids are jerks to each other and it's not clear who started it and we have no other witnesses , I punish them both the same.

However, I don't think that sort of consequences is necessarily appropriate in a school setting.

What does your student handbook say about non-ethnic slurs/bullying? What are the consequences outlined for such behavior in there?

What's your school stance and definition on bullying? My kindy kid came home with the "don't be a bully" pledge. Saying something unkind or someone else perceives as hurtful is now being a bully. Is this what your school policy is? How do you handle other situations where unkind words (but not the n-word or worse) are exchanged? Do you always do small groups like that?

As a parent, I'm fine with my kid getting the punishment they deserve as long as it complies with school policy and school policy is applied to everyone.

[lazysundays]

It's all in the context. In polish, the words for polish person are polka(female) and polak(male). If someone says you're a polak because they don't know the correct term is Pole, I'm ok with it. If someone is making polish jokes and says stupid polak, that gets corrected as not acceptable. Not even close to N word but still completely unacceptable( unless black person to black person)
I notice that some redheads turn the word ginger into a positive. Is that also a term that can only be used between redheads?
Generally ginger and polak are in the same acceptance level as insulting family members. I can do it because she's my sister, but don't you dare try it.

[resolution]

Sounds like the kid knew that that the two words weren't equivalent, as he didn't present it to you as an excuse. The mom strikes me as one that can't stand to see her kid to have done wrong.

[skubikky]

I suspect that the other kid was overheard using that word and the red headed kid assumed it was ok to say it.
I'd also guess that the kids didn't think much of it until the adults got involved.

I'm not advocating the use of racial slurs.
But, also, how does the school intend to control the use of these words outside of school?

[Deleted]

Maybe if the kids were in grade school, skubikky.  These are 12 & 13 year olds and they know what "the N word" is by now. 

[alabamagal]

There is a whole episode of South Park dedicated to insulting ginger kids.  A lot of you may not think of it as a slur, but some might.

My take is if you said the n-word you should get in trouble, your discipline is appropriate.  My kids got in trouble in junior high for some offenses and other kids were involved, and really it doesn't matter, you did X you get punished.

[Deleted]

So we're using South Park as a gauge for proper societal behavior now?!?! Its satire, people!
 


ETA: Anyone else find it ironic that South Park and Idiocracy were made by the same people...

[Cookies Galore]

South Park also skewered Mormons. I guess I can sing "dumb dumb dumb dumb" when I interact with one. South Park made it okay!

I have hair in the red-colored family. My brother was a ginger as a child (his hair is now reddish brown) and I have a cousin with ginger-colored hair. If someone called any of us ginger I'd be like, thanks for the adjective to describe my hair. You are observant.

[CarolinaKat]

All I can hear after the OP is David Tennant running around as Doctor Who saying ' Am I a ginger this time? Please let me be a ginger!'

[swamp]

May 14, 2014 8:09:30 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

South Park also skewered Mormons. I guess I can sing "dumb dumb dumb dumb" when I interact with one. South Park made it okay!

I have hair in the red-colored family. My brother was a ginger as a child (his hair is now reddish brown) and I have a cousin with ginger-colored hair. If someone called any of us ginger I'd be like, thanks for the adjective to describe my hair. You are observant.

But gingers have no soul.

But seriously, I think the punishment is appropriate. "Ni***r" is a vile slur, ginger is meh. and the kid who got in trouble can also take it as a lesson that sometimes you're gonna get in trouble when you retaliate. It's like a hockey game, the first elbow is never caught. The retaliator gets the penalty.

[Deleted]

Society agrees that N-word is not acceptable; Society hasn't deemed Ginger vulgar (yet, anyway) so I agree that the N bomb deserves punishment but the Ginger comment should get the kid a "name calling is not nice" lecture.

[Cookies Galore]

May 14, 2014 8:15:28 GMT -5 swamp said:

May 14, 2014 8:09:30 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

South Park also skewered Mormons. I guess I can sing "dumb dumb dumb dumb" when I interact with one. South Park made it okay!

I have hair in the red-colored family. My brother was a ginger as a child (his hair is now reddish brown) and I have a cousin with ginger-colored hair. If someone called any of us ginger I'd be like, thanks for the adjective to describe my hair. You are observant.

But gingers have no soul.

But seriously, I think the punishment is appropriate. "Ni***r" is a vile slur, ginger is meh. and the kid who got in trouble can also take it as a lesson that sometimes you're gonna get in trouble when you retaliate. It's like a hockey game, the first elbow is never caught. The retaliator gets the penalty.

Im also left-handed and an atheist. I eat souls for breakfast!

[mmhmm]

I also suggested that we might need to do some small group work with this group of boys if they're calling each other names often and the kids are getting this frustrated with each other.

I like this idea.  This situation sounds like a good opportunity for a "teaching moment".  Some small group work on the use of slang and when it's inappropriate would be age-appropriate for this group, I'd think.

[raeoflyte]

Racial slurs are never ok and not on the same playing field as ginger (in the USA). It wasn't that long ago that the n word was routinely used by white people to put black people in their place. Yes, black people reclaimed the word within their culture and as society has shifted that may fade away too. We're not there yet. If I were the mom is be mortified that my child thought that was an acceptable retort.

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards

[swamp]

May 14, 2014 8:27:10 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

. If I were the mom is be mortified that my child thought that was an acceptable retort.

[sheilaincali]

Like other's have said that fact that even here we are referring to the two words as: Ginger and the "N" word tells you that one is worse than the other. No one here has even thought to spell the word completely out but we have no problem writing "Ginger".

My son got bullied once by a black kid on the playground when he was in 3rd grade (the other kid was a 5th grader). He called my son a "F word, White Hershey's Bar". My son was so confused by the insult. He knew the kid meant malice but didn't understand the insult itself.

I guess I would talk to the kid that used the Ginger term and remind him that insults are never helpful and call it a day. Ginger gets thrown around a lot as an insult that I think it's lost it's impact. The N word however hasn't been an acceptable term for a very long time.

[billisonboard]

May 14, 2014 6:42:55 GMT -5 skubikky said:

...
But, also, how does the school intend to control the use of these words outside of school?

Not their responsibility IM(not so)HO. I always looked at situations like this as on opportunity to teach job site behavior. "There are no inappropriate words, only inappropriate times and places for words." Would using "ginger" result in the same negative consequence on the job as use of the "n" word?

[Deleted]

It would depend on the schools policy. If the policy is no racial slurs, than they should get the same punishment. If the school has a list of words you can't say than only the child who said the forbidden word should be punished. I don't think 12 is old enough to know that x is word yoy never ever say. Dd wouldn't understand the power of that word. She simply has no exposure to it.

[Deleted]

You investigated and it sounds like it was thorough. You made your decision based on the facts presented by the involved boys + witnesses.  Your witnesses didn't raise the issue of a Ginger comment, so I'd assume it wasn't said in a way that raised it to their attention.

And no, calling someone a Ginger isn't derogatory. Ginger's choice of slang however was extremely derogatory.

Could you hear the blades chopping through the air as Mrs Helicopter exonerated her itty-bitty-baby <<imagine the pouty lips>>