whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on May 14, 2014 10:41:57 GMT -5
I think there are degrees of insult. I'd barely pause at bitch, but call me a c word and the reaction is more visceral... Different connotations. huh...to me it would be the same
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 14, 2014 10:43:23 GMT -5
I don't use the word "polack". I know the proper term to be "Pole". However, I wouldn't consider the word "polack", by itself, to be an insult necessarily. It would depend on how it was said and by whom. Now "dumb polack" is another matter. That's an insult, but the insult is in the additional word "dumb". I grew up in an area where there are a lot of polish people. Polack was used as an insult to mean the person was stupid. I've never used it, as I said. If I wanted to call somebody stupid, I'd use the word "stupid". If people were using the word "polack" to mean stupid ... those people were stupid.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 10:43:47 GMT -5
I think Eastern European connotations to 'bitch' are more closely aligned to 'c word' than here.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2014 10:45:03 GMT -5
They are kids still. I guess. My only pause would be, well, in that SP episode they basically took all the connotations of the n word and applied them to 'ginger' ... So IF the first kid actually took it as a slur of that magnitude, while it dies not justify retaliating with one, it might seem unfair that one was treated like the other, in the mind of that kid. Those things can fester and have the opposite impact intended. It's an if though, as I have no idea how anything was taken or given... Most likely we are guving this more thought than the boys involved... I agree. Who knows what really happened. I do know when I was a kid, if you hurled what I perceived to be an insult at me (for me to decide, not anyone else to say "it wasn't that bad") I hurled one right back at you. And yes, that included the nuclear option mentioned in this thread. Insult me and I am throwing one back at you. Kids do that. But to say one insult is worse than another is wrong. The only person who gets decide how insulted they are over a word is the person being insulted. Many of you in here regularly toss around the word Retard. Anyone ever called me that and I am out for blood. The fact that it isn't nuclear to many of you doesn't mean it isn't for me.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 10:49:17 GMT -5
Tit for tat would work if this were a perfect world. Do you want "fairness" or do you want to teach the kids how society works?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 10:53:56 GMT -5
I can see a boy thinking they were the same level of insult if he already had a problem or had been picked on for his red hair. You can call me a C all you like,but fat ass or beaver and I get upset. Those are already my sore spots.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 14, 2014 10:54:05 GMT -5
They are kids still. I guess. My only pause would be, well, in that SP episode they basically took all the connotations of the n word and applied them to 'ginger' ... So IF the first kid actually took it as a slur of that magnitude, while it dies not justify retaliating with one, it might seem unfair that one was treated like the other, in the mind of that kid. Those things can fester and have the opposite impact intended. It's an if though, as I have no idea how anything was taken or given... Most likely we are guving this more thought than the boys involved... I agree. Who knows what really happened. I do know when I was a kid, if you hurled what I perceived to be an insult at me (for me to decide, not anyone else to say "it wasn't that bad") I hurled one right back at you. And yes, that included the nuclear option mentioned in this thread. Insult me and I am throwing one back at you. Kids do that. But to say one insult is worse than another is wrong. The only person who gets decide how insulted they are over a word is the person being insulted. Many of you in here regularly toss around the word Retard. Anyone ever called me that and I am out for blood. The fact that it isn't nuclear to many of you doesn't mean it isn't for me. The word "retard" is nuclear to me, too, MT. I'm pretty sure it's nuclear to most caring, thinking people. It's just plain mean and has no business being used. That said, there's no way for another person to know you, for instance, were raised in an area where the word "polack" was used as a synonym for "stupid". That would also be true of the word "ginger". Someone might have just learned the word "ginger" was used to describe folks with red hair. Cute word! So, the person uses that new word on the next "ginger" he/she sees ... who happens to be Irish and, while growing up, encountered the word as an insult. In the case of the new person using the word, no insult was given.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2014 11:02:54 GMT -5
Tit for tat would work if this were a perfect world. Do you want "fairness" or do you want to teach the kids how society works? I want to teach my kids that no name calling is acceptable. I will never agree that one insult is worse ham another and I will never teach my kids that one is worse. Both people are wrong for insulting one another
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 14, 2014 11:07:14 GMT -5
Society isn't perfect and there are words that just shouldn't be said no matter what the intent behind them is. I think this is a good lesson for the kid who dropped the N-bomb that people react strongly to that word so he should stop using it. Maybe a better lesson is to have him research the history of the word so he can see WHY society is so against people saying it. Who says society is against it? Who do you define as society? It's used all the time across the country in ways completely acceptable to a massive group of people. I would argue society is NOT against people saying it. Society is against white people saying it...which is pretty racist...which is ironic given the word.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 11:09:07 GMT -5
And as their parent you should be teaching them your values! I guess we need to decide if we want the school to teach values and what those values should be. Government always gets this kind of thing right....
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2014 11:15:53 GMT -5
And as their parent you should be teaching them your values! I guess we need to decide if we want the school to teach values and what those values should be. Government always gets this kind of thing right.... Teachers tend to be much more liberal than I am so I certainly don't want them teaching my child values. Info expect the school to be fair in punishments, though. Teaching children that one insult is worse than another is a disservice. That said, as a parent I would not go to the school complaining. I would teach my child that the world isn't fair and unfortunately the groups that scream the loudest get catered to. So she would need to consider that going forward.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 14, 2014 11:17:01 GMT -5
::I want to teach my kids that no name calling is acceptable. I will never agree that one insult is worse ham another and I will never teach my kids that one is worse. Both people are wrong for insulting one another::
What name calling isn't acceptable though? Can they not say "Hi friend"? How about "sup buddy?". Those are names, and those are names that are slang and not insults, which is what happened in this scenario from the sounds of it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2014 11:25:18 GMT -5
::I want to teach my kids that no name calling is acceptable. I will never agree that one insult is worse ham another and I will never teach my kids that one is worse. Both people are wrong for insulting one another:: What name calling isn't acceptable though? Can they not say "Hi friend"? How about "sup buddy?". Those are names, and those are names that are slang and not insults, which is what happened in this scenario from the sounds of it. I speaking more in general terms. It annoys me that one insult is supposedly worse than another. If you are saying something to hurt the person, it is just as bad as these supposed "nuclewr" words.I have no idea what happened between these two kids.
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Baby Fawkes
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Post by Baby Fawkes on May 14, 2014 11:30:10 GMT -5
Perhaps the other kid is just dyslexic and really meant to use the same word... I'll just leave this here: (a couple of NSFW words, so consider headphones)
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 11:32:12 GMT -5
::I want to teach my kids that no name calling is acceptable. I will never agree that one insult is worse ham another and I will never teach my kids that one is worse. Both people are wrong for insulting one another:: What name calling isn't acceptable though? Can they not say "Hi friend"? How about "sup buddy?". Those are names, and those are names that are slang and not insults, which is what happened in this scenario from the sounds of it. No, I don't think so. Maybe it's just in Alabama, but by middle school, all kids know that only black kids can use the n-word. Supposedly, it's a cultural thing where you take a word that is considered an insult and transform it into an insider word. It's only slang when it is used within the black culture. It is racist outside of it. I understand to some extent why this word is privileged for black use only. I grew up in the South in the 1960s. I have friends who tell of their parents stopping at a service station so that they could go to the bathroom. The shop owner would shake his head and point to the road. It is an ugly word that testifies to man's capability for inhumanity towards each other in much the same way a swastika does. What I don't understand is why the black community embraces it the way it does. It's not acceptable in my classroom by either race.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on May 14, 2014 11:33:07 GMT -5
::I want to teach my kids that no name calling is acceptable. I will never agree that one insult is worse ham another and I will never teach my kids that one is worse. Both people are wrong for insulting one another:: What name calling isn't acceptable though? Can they not say "Hi friend"? How about "sup buddy?". Those are names, and those are names that are slang and not insults, which is what happened in this scenario from the sounds of it. That is highly offensive to Jamaicans. My SIL and BIL found that out recently. Buddy means dick or penis. Per their friend that's why they say "Hey Mon". And I'm surprised some don't get why the n word and Ginger aren't comparative. I've not seen or heard of large groups of people in slavery or being considered "lesser than" or experienced racism due to being a red head/Ginger. I have a lot of Irish and auburn/red heads in my family. Irish were known for being drunks and they have black hair too. Nobody used Ginger as an insult that I've ever heard. Red headed step child was used in a somewhat derogatory way implying you didn't belong in the family but that was said to anybody regardless of hair color and usually in a facetious way.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 14, 2014 11:37:58 GMT -5
Society isn't perfect and there are words that just shouldn't be said no matter what the intent behind them is. I think this is a good lesson for the kid who dropped the N-bomb that people react strongly to that word so he should stop using it. Maybe a better lesson is to have him research the history of the word so he can see WHY society is so against people saying it. Who says society is against it? Who do you define as society? It's used all the time across the country in ways completely acceptable to a massive group of people. I would argue society is NOT against people saying it. Society is against white people saying it...which is pretty racist...which is ironic given the word. I know plenty of white people that say it. Yes, a lot fewer white people than black people use it, but it isn't just race that makes it inappropriate to use. It also has to do with the setting, connotation, pronounciation, and most importantly - familiarity with the people you are speaking to. We all have to know what language to use in various settings. I call my boss by his first name, I would guess in some workplaces that isn't appropriate. I don't care if the kids cuss at home, but they better not do it in public. Use of the N-word is the same - you have to know when it is acceptable. But, because it is such an intense word with its history, using it at the wrong time or wrong place is really, really bad & can seem very offensive. Instead of just looking stupid, like an old guy saying YOLO, you look like a racist ass even if that wasn't the intent.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on May 14, 2014 11:43:40 GMT -5
I think there are degrees of insult. I'd barely pause at bitch, but call me a c word and the reaction is more visceral... Different connotations. huh...to me it would be the same "Bitch" (and Son of a Bastard/Bastard) has apparently lost it's bite... I think TV has changed the semantics of the words. I had a coworker with we old people considered a Potty Mouth. She called all her friends "Bitch" - especially when greeting them on the phone or in person. She once shouted down the hallway at work "Hey! Bitch!" in greeting to someone she knew/worked with from one of the other floors. My coworker was lily white. The Cube Farm went silent when she dropped that bomb. I can only surmise that the younger generation has softened "Bitch" from a cuss word to a kind of 'greeting' or 'endearment'. Seriously though, I'm thinking it's the inflection/context used when saying the word(s) that indicate what the person saying means. Pretty much any word/description/phrase can be an insult if said correctly. FWIW: I lovingly call my very strikingly patterned red/orange cat - my Ginger Cat or Ginger Boy ... cause he's so darn cute!! I never realized I've been insulting him.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 14, 2014 11:48:43 GMT -5
Tit for tat would work if this were a perfect world. Do you want "fairness" or do you want to teach the kids how society works? I want to teach my kids that no name calling is acceptable. I will never agree that one insult is worse ham another and I will never teach my kids that one is worse. Both people are wrong for insulting one another I agree both kids should have gotten the same punishment for being engaged in name calling. However, someone needs to pull the ginger aside and have a discussion about the n-word and other nuclear words like the C-word and the F-word (the one regarding gays). These are words that are guaranteed to get a very negative reaction, and that kid needs to understand that. I had a colleague who got fired for using the N-word. I had another one demoted for using the C word. If you're in a crowded bar and shout the N-word, chances are, there will be a fight. Calling a co-worker 'ginger' or shouting the word 'ginger' in a bar will not have the same consequences. That's just how life is. Failing to understand this or refusing to accept that this is the truth will make your life much harder than it needs to be.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 12:13:00 GMT -5
Who says society is against it? Who do you define as society? It's used all the time across the country in ways completely acceptable to a massive group of people. I would argue society is NOT against people saying it. Society is against white people saying it...which is pretty racist...which is ironic given the word. I know plenty of white people that say it. Yes, a lot fewer white people than black people use it, but it isn't just race that makes it inappropriate to use. It also has to do with the setting, connotation, pronounciation, and most importantly - familiarity with the people you are speaking to. We all have to know what language to use in various settings. I call my boss by his first name, I would guess in some workplaces that isn't appropriate. I don't care if the kids cuss at home, but they better not do it in public. Use of the N-word is the same - you have to know when it is acceptable. But, because it is such an intense word with its history, using it at the wrong time or wrong place is really, really bad & can seem very offensive. Instead of just looking stupid, like an old guy saying YOLO, you look like a racist ass even if that wasn't the intent. Saying "What's up, my n***a" is different from saying "Hey n****r". N***a(s) can be anybody, male, female, white, black, Asian, smart or dumb. A lot of times saying "this n***a", means "this stupid ass person". Ending it with an r usually means one thing, and one thing only. I've only ever heard one white person use it with an a, in the same context some black people do. I decided she meant no harm and the conversation continued. I've never heard a black person end it with an r. I've heard white people say it like that and it was very clear what they meant. I taught my children not to use that word in either form. At least I've learned today not to call red-heads gingers. It's not the first thing that comes to mind in reference to people with red hair (I'm lame, I just think "red hair"), so refraining from using it shouldn't be a problem for me.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on May 14, 2014 12:13:31 GMT -5
huh...to me it would be the same "Bitch" (and Son of a Bastard/Bastard) has apparently lost it's bite... I think TV has changed the semantics of the words. I had a coworker with we old people considered a Potty Mouth. She called all her friends "Bitch" - especially when greeting them on the phone or in person. She once shouted down the hallway at work "Hey! Bitch!" in greeting to someone she knew/worked with from one of the other floors. My coworker was lily white. The Cube Farm went silent when she dropped that bomb. I can only surmise that the younger generation has softened "Bitch" from a cuss word to a kind of 'greeting' or 'endearment'. Seriously though, I'm thinking it's the inflection/context used when saying the word(s) that indicate what the person saying means. Pretty much any word/description/phrase can be an insult if said correctly. FWIW: I lovingly call my very strikingly patterned red/orange cat - my Ginger Cat or Ginger Boy ... cause he's so darn cute!! I never realized I've been insulting him. At my bachelorette party, the drag queens very heartily wished me a 'Good Luck Bitch'. Actually everyone in the club did. It was not done with malice at. all. If someone called me 'bitch' with malice behind it, it would be different. As it was, I had an awesome night
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 12:16:00 GMT -5
It sounds like it would be!!!
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on May 14, 2014 12:17:02 GMT -5
Bitch" (and Son of a Bastard/Bastard) has apparently lost it's bite... I think TV has changed the semantics of the words. I had a coworker with we old people considered a Potty Mouth. She called all her friends "Bitch" - especially when greeting them on the phone or in person. She once shouted down the hallway at work "Hey! Bitch!" in greeting to someone she knew/worked with from one of the other floors. My coworker was lily white. The Cube Farm went silent when she dropped that bomb. I can only surmise that the younger generation has softened "Bitch" from a cuss word to a kind of 'greeting' or 'endearment'.
That's a matter of knowing your audience. When my girl friends and I get together "Bitch" really is a term of endearment on our weekend get aways. We'll say things like 'I love you bitches' and "you bitches are alright". However I am smart enough to know that although those 12 ladies and I use that term in a friendly manner I would never say that to another woman outside that group. My husband knows that's how we girls refer to each other on those weekends (he has seen the posts on facebook- pics of us "hanging with my crazy bitches") but he would never think to call them Bitch when he sees them out and about. That's a term only reserved for us girls and only towards each other.
If my friend R called me up and said "hey Bitch, wanna do lunch this week?" I'd think nothing of it and would likely smile because I would be looking forward to seeing R for lunch. If a male co-worker (because I only work with men) stopped in my office and said "Hey Bitch, where's my paystub?" I'd have a much different reaction.
* My group of friends (13 of us including me) are mostly in our mid-30's to mid-40's, one of them is in her 60's I'd guess
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 12:28:48 GMT -5
So what's the difference between female friends calling each other bitches even though they'd get offended if a stranger or a man called them that and black people using the other word? I personally don't call my friends bitches. If I call someone that, most likely, I mean to offend. However, I stopped fighting the tide and getting outraged when women use it toward me in a friendly manner. I definitely wouldn't like a man calling me that, at all. And I know that if I dare to call a man a bitch, I better be prepared for fight or flight. I think what some women have done with the word bitch is similar to what some black people have done with the other word. ETA: Tina's called me a bitch before.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on May 14, 2014 12:30:22 GMT -5
My quick 2 cents here:
We are adults, so we think South Park using the term "ginger" as an equivalent on an episode is irrelevant/absurd. However 12-13 year olds are on the cutting edge of slang--yes, they're the ones who create it or popularize it much of the time. If they pick this up this connotation as an equivalency, then it really becomes one. So, if these kids had picked this up from TV or their friends somewhere along the line, then it really was equivalent and deserves similar punishment (or not, if you determine they were using it in jest as friends, YMMV).
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 14, 2014 13:10:21 GMT -5
So what's the difference between female friends calling each other bitches even though they'd get offended if a stranger or a man called them that and black people using the other word? I personally don't call my friends bitches. If I call someone that, most likely, I mean to offend. However, I stopped fighting the tide and getting outraged when women use it toward me in a friendly manner. I definitely wouldn't like a man calling me that, at all. And I know that if I dare to call a man a bitch, I better be prepared for fight or flight. I think what some women have done with the word bitch is similar to what some black people have done with the other word. ETA: Tina's called me a bitch before. Around here, the word is "hussy". Nobody calls one another "bitch". Instead, they call one another "hussy". Like you, it doesn't offend me. I take it in the context in which it's delivered. Of course, I also have a cousin we call "Ginger girl". She's got red hair - go figure.
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justme
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Post by justme on May 14, 2014 13:44:49 GMT -5
I've never met a ginger that was insulted by the word. But I've also never met a ginger that has a soul, so that could have something to do with it. I would thinking asking a ginger if the curtains match the drapes would be more insulting, and along that vein calling a red head fire crotch would be insulting. I'm so over words having double standards. Either it's a bad word or it's not. If you use it, don't go nuclear if someone else uses it. If it's bad to come out of others mouths, then don't say it. And hmmm...apparently I missed out on several days, well probably weeks, of in school suspension for calling names. There was a time frame where my friends and I would always part with "love ya bitch" with sometimes a "love ya whore" thrown in for good measure. It amused us.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 14, 2014 14:16:30 GMT -5
... If you use it, don't go nuclear if someone else uses it. If it's bad to come out of others mouths, then don't say it. ... So I get to go nuclear on anyone who uses words I don't use? Or do you mean that if some other human being on the planet somewhere uses it, then I can't go nuclear about someone using it?
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on May 14, 2014 14:16:52 GMT -5
So DS (16) and his friends are always teasing each other. They harass one kid for living on a "tree" street as being the "rich neighborhood" since the other kids live on "bird" named streets (in the same subdivision). Things like that. Good natured and they all laugh and rib each other. So one kid named Cedar is a redhead so they are forever teasing him about how he has no soul. They've all been friends and harassing each other for years.
DH meets his new co-worker a couple of years ago and they get to talking about their kids and he mentions his son Cedar and my husband blurts out "he's a redhead!" and the guy looked at him like what the hell? So DH tells him "oh, I've seen him hanging out with my son before" He claims he almost said "but he has no soul" but caught himself in time.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 14, 2014 14:23:03 GMT -5
I'm so over words having double standards. Either it's a bad word or it's not. If you use it, don't go nuclear if someone else uses it. If it's bad to come out of others mouths, then don't say it. See, I am the opposite. I think it is all about the context. The meaning of words is fluid & in some situations they may not be offensive & the same word in another situation can be very offensive. I could really care less if someone uses cuss words in their language, but I certainly care if they use a cuss word to call me a name. The word isn't bad, IMO, but the intent of the word can be.
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