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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 14:25:12 GMT -5
I'm so over words having double standards. Either it's a bad word or it's not. If you use it, don't go nuclear if someone else uses it. If it's bad to come out of others mouths, then don't say it. And hmmm...apparently I missed out on several days, well probably weeks, of in school suspension for calling names. There was a time frame where my friends and I would always part with "love ya bitch" with sometimes a "love ya whore" thrown in for good measure. It amused us. It's not that easy. You may be "so over words having double standards," but until society as well does, y ou stand a chance of being fired for using the same word that a black man might use to describe his friend. Your second example illustrates the point. You and your friends appropriated language meant to be insulting. But I doubt if some girl in the bathroom that you didn't really like that much had used the same terms to describe you that you would be so amused. Maybe she called you that because you were "messing with" her boyfriend. But, hey, you use it to describe yourself, right? So that means she's just "playing," right?
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justme
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Post by justme on May 14, 2014 14:26:19 GMT -5
... If you use it, don't go nuclear if someone else uses it. If it's bad to come out of others mouths, then don't say it. ... So I get to go nuclear on anyone who uses words I don't use? Or do you mean that if some other human being on the planet somewhere uses it, then I can't go nuclear about someone using it? I mean, I find the it's ok for [one group] to use a word, but all hell will break loose if someone not from that group uses the word hypocritical as hell. Of course there's some nuances to it (like intent/tone), but if the word is off limits to some people regardless of intent/tone/etc than I think it should be off limits for everyone regardless of intent/tone/etc.
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justme
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Post by justme on May 14, 2014 14:30:56 GMT -5
I'm so over words having double standards. Either it's a bad word or it's not. If you use it, don't go nuclear if someone else uses it. If it's bad to come out of others mouths, then don't say it. And hmmm...apparently I missed out on several days, well probably weeks, of in school suspension for calling names. There was a time frame where my friends and I would always part with "love ya bitch" with sometimes a "love ya whore" thrown in for good measure. It amused us. It's not that easy. You may be "so over words having double standards," but until society as well does, y ou stand a chance of being fired for using the same word that a black man might use to describe his friend. Your second example illustrates the point. You and your friends appropriated language meant to be insulting. But I doubt if some girl in the bathroom that you didn't really like that much had used the same terms to describe you that you would be so amused. Maybe she called you that because you were "messing with" her boyfriend. But, hey, you use it to describe yourself, right? So that means she's just "playing," right? No, but I would think most people would say a white person can't use the n-word in any context/tone. A parallel would be society ok with any woman using the word bitch, but if a guy does then all hell breaks lose. I think that's a load of crap. Either it's a bad word 100% of the time or it's only a bad word when it's used to insult/hurt. The color/gender/religion of the person stating it doesn't make a word bad/insulting/hurtful. The manner in which they do does.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 14, 2014 14:46:06 GMT -5
So I get to go nuclear on anyone who uses words I don't use? Or do you mean that if some other human being on the planet somewhere uses it, then I can't go nuclear about someone using it? I mean, I find the it's ok for [one group] to use a word, but all hell will break loose if someone not from that group uses the word hypocritical as hell. ... A "group"? Do you mean like a musical group? A group like the Rotary Club? Do all members of the group, whatever you mean by group, have to use it? What if only half use it? Ten percent? One percent? Are all members of the group, whatever you mean by group, equal in creating the appropriateness\acceptability of a term?
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justme
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Post by justme on May 14, 2014 14:51:19 GMT -5
I mean, I find the it's ok for [one group] to use a word, but all hell will break loose if someone not from that group uses the word hypocritical as hell. ... A "group"? Do you mean like a musical group? A group like the Rotary Club? Do all members of the group, whatever you mean by group, have to use it? What if only half use it? Ten percent? One percent? Are all members of the group, whatever you mean by group, equal in creating the appropriateness\acceptability of a term? Either it's a bad word for ANYONE to say, or it's only bad based on context/intent/tone/etc. A word doesn't become bad or insulting simply by coming of the mouth of someone with white skin color, or of Jewish religion, or of the male gender regardless of the intent/tone used.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 14, 2014 15:40:18 GMT -5
Off topic nearly completely, but curious to me - in the States, the C word seems to be reserved for the most vile nasty women and it's a nuclear word.
In the UK, at least from watching a bunch of UK movies, the C word seems to be tossed off casually, like the B word. Men use it on other men to mean jerk or a-hole. It does not seem to be nuclear, there.
And I really don't understand how their word for cigerette turned into our nuclear word for a gay guy. Watching nice British lady asking casually for a "f" just seems be a punch in the face every time I hear it, although I understand what she means.
I wonder what American words I use every day are offensive to the Brits (I've been told dirty nelly's is one of them, which used to be the name of a very nice Irish pub here in town). Oh yes, and bloody. I'm not sure how that became what it means to the Brits.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 14, 2014 15:47:30 GMT -5
... And I really don't understand how their word for cigerette turned into our nuclear word for a gay guy. Watching nice British lady asking casually for a "f" just seems be a punch in the face every time I hear it, although I understand what she means. .... I heard somewhere sometime (yeah) that homosexual males who were the minions of witches were tossed into the fires under the stakes which held the witches.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 15:52:59 GMT -5
If someone called me the c-word, I'd probably start laughing or say something stupid like "Yo Momma!". I've seen the word written, but really, who actually says that? I don't even know if I could take someone seriously if that's how they tried to insult me.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 14, 2014 15:56:25 GMT -5
... And I really don't understand how their word for cigerette turned into our nuclear word for a gay guy. Watching nice British lady asking casually for a "f" just seems be a punch in the face every time I hear it, although I understand what she means. .... I heard somewhere sometime (yeah) that homosexual males who were the minions of witches were tossed into the fires under the stakes which held the witches. Hmmm, interesting.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on May 14, 2014 15:58:19 GMT -5
Well, my DD attends a pretty diverse school district. Her regular group of friends includes a black girl, an indian girl, muslims, puertoricans, mexicans etc. They are not exactly PC with slang or words we adults would consider insults. They are a pretty cohesive group of friends. We are the last suburb of Milwaukee closest to Chicago. We are economically and ethnically pretty diverse.
I am curious how the students interact otherwise. Are they friends, enemies or ? Does the boy who was called an "N" word take issue with it?
I had this conversation with DD don't remeber exactly what word I thought she should never use, but I do remember I did not think it sunk in with her.
Personally I think it is more important that they don't see the barriers we used to see. It will be a different world they go to work in.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 14, 2014 16:00:38 GMT -5
If someone called me the c-word, I'd probably start laughing or say something stupid like "Yo Momma!". I've seen the word written, but really, who actually says that? I don't even know if I could take someone seriously if that's how they tried to insult me. The C word is the only word that would make me punch someone, I think. The B word doesn't bother me because to me, it just means a woman who is being assertive like a man. It's almost a compliment. But the C word, to me, implies a really vile and nasty woman, physically dirty, morally corrupt and riddled with STD's. Which is weird, because one of my favorite words is c-word-unny (rhymes with bunny) for lady parts. I prefer that to the cat term. I can't explain why one is offensive and the other term cute. It is what it is.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 16:23:36 GMT -5
But the C word, to me, implies a really vile and nasty woman, physically dirty, morally corrupt and riddled with STD's.
I know it's suppose to be a terrible insult, but in my mind, it's so old fashioned and maybe that's why I think it would sound funny to me. I don't even think I've heard it used IRL.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2014 17:52:55 GMT -5
So what's the difference between female friends calling each other bitches even though they'd get offended if a stranger or a man called them that and black people using the other word? I personally don't call my friends bitches. If I call someone that, most likely, I mean to offend. However, I stopped fighting the tide and getting outraged when women use it toward me in a friendly manner. I definitely wouldn't like a man calling me that, at all. And I know that if I dare to call a man a bitch, I better be prepared for fight or flight. I think what some women have done with the word bitch is similar to what some black people have done with the other word. ETA: Tina's called me a bitch before. Lol! I'm an equal opportunity offender :-p
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 14, 2014 17:57:29 GMT -5
If someone called me the c-word, I'd probably start laughing or say something stupid like "Yo Momma!". I've seen the word written, but really, who actually says that? I don't even know if I could take someone seriously if that's how they tried to insult me. The C word is the only word that would make me punch someone, I think. The B word doesn't bother me because to me, it just means a woman who is being assertive like a man. It's almost a compliment. But the C word, to me, implies a really vile and nasty woman, physically dirty, morally corrupt and riddled with STD's. Which is weird, because one of my favorite words is c-word-unny (rhymes with bunny) for lady parts. I prefer that to the cat term. I can't explain why one is offensive and the other term cute. It is what it is. Years ago, I was working in the ER when the doctor asked me to get her a "cooter scoop". Why, yes! Of course! I hadn't been in South Carolina that long and had no clue what a "cooter sccop" might be. The charge nurse nearly fell on the floor when I asked her what one was and where to find it. Doc was going to do a vaginal smear.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2014 18:09:29 GMT -5
It's not that easy. You may be "so over words having double standards," but until society as well does, y ou stand a chance of being fired for using the same word that a black man might use to describe his friend. Your second example illustrates the point. You and your friends appropriated language meant to be insulting. But I doubt if some girl in the bathroom that you didn't really like that much had used the same terms to describe you that you would be so amused. Maybe she called you that because you were "messing with" her boyfriend. But, hey, you use it to describe yourself, right? So that means she's just "playing," right? No, but I would think most people would say a white person can't use the n-word in any context/tone. A parallel would be society ok with any woman using the word bitch, but if a guy does then all hell breaks lose. I think that's a load of crap. Either it's a bad word 100% of the time or it's only a bad word when it's used to insult/hurt. The color/gender/religion of the person stating it doesn't make a word bad/insulting/hurtful. The manner in which they do does. I agree with this. Someone can call me a bitch in a joking way (girlfriends, etx) and that is completely different than someone getting nasty with me and calling me a bitch. It is all about intent to me. But I would get just as pissed off at a woman who insulted me by calling me a bitch as I would a male. I would not get offended if a man was joking with me about being a bitch. But I have just as much right to get offended over being called a bitch as every other derogatory name. I will never believe one is worse than the other...being nasty and calling names is wrong, regardless of what you are called.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on May 14, 2014 18:28:39 GMT -5
I think Eastern European connotations to 'bitch' are more closely aligned to 'c word' than here. I am trying to think if it's true for where I am from.... People used SO MUCH foul language that I think I became completely oblivious to it. People just used very colorful and very rich in cursing kind of way. I guess I look for sentiment behind the words, more than the word itself, if it makes sense
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 18:33:47 GMT -5
As someone else said, bitch here has come to more commonly mean assertive and overbearing woman, in many cases a woman acting more 'like a man'... Whereas my husband came from the tradition of bitch being an immoral slut more like 'bitch in heat' type thing.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 14, 2014 18:34:20 GMT -5
Off topic nearly completely, but curious to me - in the States, the C word seems to be reserved for the most vile nasty women and it's a nuclear word. In the UK, at least from watching a bunch of UK movies, the C word seems to be tossed off casually, like the B word. Men use it on other men to mean jerk or a-hole. It does not seem to be nuclear, there. And I really don't understand how their word for cigerette turned into our nuclear word for a gay guy. Watching nice British lady asking casually for a "f" just seems be a punch in the face every time I hear it, although I understand what she means. I wonder what American words I use every day are offensive to the Brits "Fanny" is one. Not that you'd use it every day, but it's innocuous in America. Growing up in America, my family used that as kind of a funny, old-fashioned word to describe a backside. Cute and granny sounding. Well, DH is British and about died the first time he heard someone say "fanny." Apparently it's not the backside there.... and is not at all cute or old fashioned.
The C word is nuclear offensive. Since I started watching more cable TV, I now also put the word "Gash" in that category as well. Ah, the wonderful things we learn from SOA.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 18:45:40 GMT -5
Are you sure, Milee? Fanny is a typical 18th and 19th century name. Jane Austen uses it in more than one novel.
What does it mean to your DH? I'm just curious. I teach Brit Lit, and we talk a lot about the difference in language.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 14, 2014 19:04:21 GMT -5
Are you sure, Milee? Fanny is a typical 18th and 19th century name. Jane Austen uses it in more than one novel.
What does it mean to your DH? I'm just curious. I teach Brit Lit, and we talk a lot about the difference in language. I'm sure. He alternates between blushing and turning a little green when he hears the word. As for it being used in Jane Austen, language evolves. Think of how as recently as the '20s the word "gay" did not have homosexual connotations and now that's it's primary connotation. Or the fact that "Dick" used to be a commonly acceptable nickname for Richard, but there aren't many "Dick"s out there that are under 50 since younger people connect that word with something other than "Richard."
No idea what the exact translation of fanny is, he - as a gentleman - has declined to elaborate. At one point he hinted that it still referred to anatomy and was similar to the C word. I haven't pressed the issue since it wasn't huge deal to refrain from using the term "fanny."
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milee
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Post by milee on May 14, 2014 19:09:31 GMT -5
You got me curious, so I FGI. Here's the definition of that bit of British slang:
"Fanny - This is the word for a woman's front bits! One doesn't normally talk about anyone's fanny as it is a bit rude. You certainly don't have a fanny pack, or smack people on their fannys - you would get arrested for that! Careful use of this word in the UK is advised! "
www.effingpot.com/slang.shtml
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 19:09:44 GMT -5
Lol. When I first started teaching a retiring teacher gave me some of her old books, one depicted how to make a bulletin board entitled, "How to Build A Gay Snowman"
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 20:30:02 GMT -5
The 1st kid meant ginger as an insult so the 2nd kid insulted him in what he probably thought was a similar way. I think you punish either both or neither.
I did not grow up in the US so i didnt go through any of this. My thinking is some people are trying so hard to make it equal for black people that they are making unequal for everybody else. My ex-stepson at the time was going to a pretty good school in a rich neighborhood, where they also had kids (mostly black) from poor neighborhoods. One day i find out the black kids keep taking his and friends' ball when they are playing and nobody does anything because they are black!! That pissed me off! While trying to give better opportunities for some kids you need to make sure you are not creating a worse situation!
If the black kid called the white kid some name black people call white people as a racial insult, i wonder if anybody would bother to say xx word or would you spell it out?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 14, 2014 21:04:57 GMT -5
The OP suggested that the white kid was using the version ending in -a, not the version ending in -er. If that is true, it seems to me there is a third level here.
Whether or not 12 year olds are able to comprehend the subtleties of double standards, and the context of the two versions of that word, I can't say. I do have some sympathy for how often the -a version is used in casual conversation and how it is accepted in certain situations but not others.
But how many times have you heard me opine that the instigator should not get off scot-free just because the reactor took it to the next level. If I were the reactors father, I would be upset that the other boy got nothing. I'd also be having a talk with my own son about the words we use.
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Baby Fawkes
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Post by Baby Fawkes on May 14, 2014 21:46:21 GMT -5
Are you sure, Milee? Fanny is a typical 18th and 19th century name. Jane Austen uses it in more than one novel.
What does it mean to your DH? I'm just curious. I teach Brit Lit, and we talk a lot about the difference in language. She's absolutely correct. I'm British and grew up knowing that as slang for lady parts in the front, more correctly referred to using the 'V-' name
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on May 14, 2014 22:55:32 GMT -5
Totally OT, but am I the only one who doesn't like to be called "honey" or "sweetie" by random people, especially by older women?
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truthbound
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Post by truthbound on May 15, 2014 4:52:56 GMT -5
I believe truthbound has been unsuccessfully trolling since he got here. No just stating the truth.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 7:19:09 GMT -5
Well, then you can see why I was confused.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 15, 2014 7:51:50 GMT -5
Lol. When I first started teaching a retiring teacher gave me some of her old books, one depicted how to make a bulletin board entitled, "How to Build A Gay Snowman" Does it include a hot pink feather boa?
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on May 15, 2014 8:07:44 GMT -5
Sounds like the kids were not tossing insults to one another, just using it as slang. I do think that a general discussion of which words are unacceptable at school (and in society in general) is in order, more than punishment. I know that my kids have mentioned that the more comfortable they get with cursing or calling friends things like bitch (in a friendly manner, not insulting), the more difficult it is for them to censor themselves in situations where it is not appropriate. It has become a habit, and just pops out of their mouth. Better not to get in the habit in the first place. DS2 is very fair but has dark hair, and friends would often comment (in friendly jest) that he was 1/2 ginger, no soul, etc. When he got into college he decided to dye his hair, so he could really be a ginger. It was all a funny joke to him, not insulting at all. After the first semester, he changed majors, so was in a different set of classes with all new people. After a few months, when his roots began growing out, many of his new classmates were surprised to learn that he was not really a ginger. At least amongst highschool/college age kids, the SP thing is viewed as a joke. Younger kids may not have that discernment yet.
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