Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 14, 2014 8:57:48 GMT -5
As a member of the same demographic as the person who used the n-word, that is not even close to being as bad. Not even close. I'm not even sure it's an insult in all contexts. I wouldn't take offense unless it were prefaced by "you stupid ____" or similar. I forget which comedian (Jon Stewart?) said "if you're comparing two slurs, and one is so bad you can't even say it, but refer to it as the ____ word, THAT'S the worse one!" Is that what you were asking? Yes, that's what I'm asking, though I am open to varying opinions and not just agreeing with mine which is the same as yours.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 14, 2014 8:58:36 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd spend too much effort differentiating between which name is worse. Obviously neither should be used in a negative way.
If the first name used was used in such a way as to be insulting, I would consider it worthy of punishment. The same punishment?
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Pants
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Post by Pants on May 14, 2014 8:58:57 GMT -5
I'm confused - does the mother believe that the other kid was using "ginger" as an insult? If so, she must believe that her son was responding to the insult in using the N-word, in which case I believe that yes, both kids should be punished, but the son should still be punished more. Sorry, the N-word is pretty much the nuclear option.
If she does believe the two kids were joking around, well her kid took it too far. My kid's a ginger, bless her little no-soul-having self, and while I would be upset about someone calling her that maliciously, it still would not give her the right to retaliate with a more inflammatory name.
We're working hard on the "there are no bad words, but there are hurtful words" premise.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 14, 2014 9:00:33 GMT -5
Yeah let's ask folks on the internets for their opinion. Everyone admitted they were using slang and you still suspended them? Kids have been insulting other kids since the beginning of time. I was told how inferior I was because I was white and it didn't affect me. You should tell mom to grow a spine. Why are you here then. And and I don't generally try to be rude to people who aren't being rude to me, so I won't tell the mom that, but thanks for sharing your opinion.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 14, 2014 9:02:29 GMT -5
OMG nothing worse than 'those' kind of parents. Kudos to you for doing that job. Thank you. Truly, I appreciate it. that's not something I hear/read often.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 14, 2014 9:05:35 GMT -5
My first instinct is to say no, not even close. I looked it up, and there might be contexts though... Are they British? Apparently in some areas Ginger is used to degredate Irish populations, so the context would be similar. Also apparently South Park once did an episode in which they actually used ginger basically as a 'metaphor' for the n word? ... Given the age of the students, that could be taken literally?? Mostly, with name calling, and the n word, etc. I think intent and response are important. Was the kid really upset by the ginger comment? Or did he just want the other kid in trouble too? Were they using them the same way? I ended up looking it up late last night also. ( don't know why it took me so long to think if that ). I was surprised that the mom wasn't completely lying about the "no souls" part. Im im still not sure that, in our society, it's as bad as the n-word.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 9:08:24 GMT -5
Yeah let's ask folks on the internets for their opinion. Everyone admitted they were using slang and you still suspended them? Kids have been insulting other kids since the beginning of time. I was told how inferior I was because I was white and it didn't affect me. You should tell mom to grow a spine. Why are you here then. I believe truthbound has been unsuccessfully trolling since he got here.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on May 14, 2014 9:08:48 GMT -5
Yeah, the more I think about this situation the more I think you're in the right Chloe. In my brain it kind of went down like this: African-American kid "'Sup Ginger." Red-headed kid "'Sup N-word." Everyone else "................................." (Shocked silence.) For better or worse, the word ginger doesn't have the same impact. If the first kid had said "Mick" or "Heeb" (maybe Irish, maybe Jewish, maybe any number of other things) something I would agree he should also be punished. That is also a racial/ethnic slur. I was called "Blondie" as an insult when I was a kid, and also in a lot of those "in-group" situations where it a teasing insult made in friendship. Even when it upset me, I never thought it gave me the right to escalate. This kid needs to be taught the beauty of general insults. "Dickhead" could have been used in this situation to great effect.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 14, 2014 9:08:50 GMT -5
But gingers have no soul.
But seriously, I think the punishment is appropriate. "Ni***r" is a vile slur, ginger is meh. and the kid who got in trouble can also take it as a lesson that sometimes you're gonna get in trouble when you retaliate. It's like a hockey game, the first elbow is never caught. The retaliator gets the penalty.
Im also left-handed and an atheist. I eat souls for breakfast! Left handed! Holy goodness!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 14, 2014 9:10:17 GMT -5
In our society (here in the US), it isn't anything close to as bad as the n-word. We don't use the word "ginger" in that way. It's just a term for a red-haired person to us and not intended to be derogatory.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 14, 2014 9:12:33 GMT -5
It would depend on the schools policy. If the policy is no racial slurs, than they should get the same punishment. If the school has a list of words you can't say than only the child who said the forbidden word should be punished. I don't think 12 is old enough to know that x is word yoy never ever say. Dd wouldn't understand the power of that word. She simply has no exposure to it. School policy doesn't include a list of words. Harrassment/bullying is lumped together and includes "racial" incidents.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on May 14, 2014 9:13:44 GMT -5
Must drive to work now. Didn't intentionally not answer anyone. Be back later. As always, open to all thought hand opinions and questions! have a great morning!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on May 14, 2014 9:16:39 GMT -5
Thankfully I am used to being flamed, so here goes....
If I understand it correctly, the black kid called red-haired kid a "name" and then a red-haired WHITE kid called black kid a name. So, really, the only thing everyone is huffing and puffing about is the name the white kid used, correct? and of course that the "horrible" name was used by the white kid
So.........no, *I* don't think one name is worse than the other. Yes, I know our brilliant society disagrees, but the way I see this particular situation - the black kid "insulted" something that the other kid was born with and part of who he is. The second kid did exactly the same.
I know, I know we've discussed the importance and not importance of words over and over again and while I generally agree that it's not OK to intentionally hurt another person, it doesn't seems to be the case here.
So, either punish both or neither.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 14, 2014 9:18:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd spend too much effort differentiating between which name is worse. Obviously neither should be used in a negative way.
If the first name used was used in such a way as to be insulting, I would consider it worthy of punishment. The same punishment? If it had malicious intent, sure, why not?
Half a day of ISS isn't that big of a deal.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 9:25:33 GMT -5
It would depend on the schools policy. If the policy is no racial slurs, than they should get the same punishment. If the school has a list of words you can't say than only the child who said the forbidden word should be punished. I don't think 12 is old enough to know that x is word yoy never ever say. Dd wouldn't understand the power of that word. She simply has no exposure to it. School policy doesn't include a list of words. Harrassment/bullying is lumped together and includes "racial" incidents. There you go! "Ginger" isn't a race, it's a hair color.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 14, 2014 9:43:21 GMT -5
Wow. A ginger. That poor, poor child! I hope he recovers from that insult. ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME?! The one kid needs a lesson in appropriate taunting if he thought the n-word (or even the f"riendly with an a" version) was the logical response to ginger. Give me a f*cking break. Isn't the point that neither was an insult, just a "name" though? The kid didn't say he thought it was taunting, just that the other kid called him a name, he called that kid a name, both in slang, but only one kid got in trouble for it. I think the more interesting (or comparable) question is whether you'd suspend a black kid for saying the same thing. I also think this is a different conversation if the kids were fighting and insulting each other, as opposed to using it as slang in a friendly way. ::Maybe if the kids were in grade school, skubikky. These are 12 & 13 year olds and they know what "the N word" is by now. :: They do. And one of the uses is as a slang term to call a friend.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 14, 2014 9:50:36 GMT -5
FWIW I think the more appropriate response is that this word is unacceptable to be used in school. That you understand both words were used in a slang and non-insulting way, but that one of those slang words are not acceptable. That it isn't about who said it to whom or whatever else, it's purely about an inappropriate word being used.
My friend can say "Hi moron" in a happy friendly way. I can respond with "Sup fuckface?". Neither of us are really being more insulting or less insulting, we're just goofing around. One of those words is less acceptable for use though in general.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 10:00:59 GMT -5
Chloe, I think they deserve equal punishment. Since you don't think either student meant it to be inflammatory, the punishment should be equal. It IS name-calling, sweet and simple.
It's no different from one student saying the b-word and the other saying the f-word. The f-word is considered much "worse" by most of us, but the intent is the same. Both are curse words that are inappropriate in most public situations. I wouldn't let the first student go and write the other one up.
Your problem is complicated, though, by race. And you have to be very careful about punishment because of race that you don't seem to be dismissing the use of the n-word. If he admits to using the word "ginger," why not ask the boy who instigated the problem write a one-page "report" on the use of the word "ginger" in some cultures? I don't think his mom can complain if he has to learn why what he did was also wrong. Notice I said "also" wrong and not "equally" wrong. His mom can concede that point, I imagine.
Good luck. This is why you get paid the big bucks!
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on May 14, 2014 10:02:53 GMT -5
Wow. A ginger. That poor, poor child! I hope he recovers from that insult. ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME?! The one kid needs a lesson in appropriate taunting if he thought the n-word (or even the f"riendly with an a" version) was the logical response to ginger. Give me a f*cking break. Isn't the point that neither was an insult, just a "name" though? The kid didn't say he thought it was taunting, just that the other kid called him a name, he called that kid a name, both in slang, but only one kid got in trouble for it. I think the more interesting (or comparable) question is whether you'd suspend a black kid for saying the same thing. I also think this is a different conversation if the kids were fighting and insulting each other, as opposed to using it as slang in a friendly way. ::Maybe if the kids were in grade school, skubikky. These are 12 & 13 year olds and they know what "the N word" is by now. :: They do. And one of the uses is as a slang term to call a friend. Uh, maybe because the one kid used the "no if and or but" word as his comeback? One word is worthy of a name calling is bad lecture, the other merits the stronger punishment. This is a good life lesson for the one kid. Just because he might hear other people use a word in jest doesn't mean it's appropriate for him. Them's the breaks.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on May 14, 2014 10:10:00 GMT -5
Chloe, I think they deserve equal punishment. Since you don't think either student meant it to be inflammatory, the punishment should be equal. It IS name-calling, sweet and simple.
It's no different from one student saying the b-word and the other saying the f-word. The f-word is considered much "worse" by most of us, but the intent is the same. Both are curse words that are inappropriate in most public situations. I wouldn't let the first student go and write the other one up.
Your problem is complicated, though, by race. And you have to be very careful about punishment because of race that you don't seem to be dismissing the use of the n-word. If he admits to using the word "ginger," why not ask the boy who instigated the problem write a one-page "report" on the use of the word "ginger" in some cultures? I don't think his mom can complain if he has to learn why what he did was also wrong. Notice I said "also" wrong and not "equally" wrong. His mom can concede that point, I imagine.
Good luck. This is why you get paid the big bucks! See, and that's a problem in itself. Everyone says they want equality, but yet, no one treats anyone "equally". this shouldn't be a problem with a "race", it should be a problem with two kids calling each other names (if that is even a problem)
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2014 10:18:08 GMT -5
It's all in the context. In polish, the words for polish person are polka(female) and polak(male). If someone says you're a polak because they don't know the correct term is Pole, I'm ok with it. If someone is making polish jokes and says stupid polak, that gets corrected as not acceptable. Not even close to N word but still completely unacceptable( unless black person to black person) I notice that some redheads turn the word ginger into a positive. Is that also a term that can only be used between redheads? Generally ginger and polak are in the same acceptance level as insulting family members. I can do it because she's my sister, but don't you dare try it. But why is calling someone a Polack not as bad as calling someone an N? They are bioth derogatory. I stand by my statement that one insult is just as bad as another.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2014 10:22:06 GMT -5
In our society (here in the US), it isn't anything close to as bad as the n-word. We don't use the word "ginger" in that way. It's just a term for a red-haired person to us and not intended to be derogatory. I don't know anything about ginger...my point was that one insult is just as offensive as another. Why is one nuclear while another isn't? If you are saying something to me to offend me, it doesn't matter what the word is. I will be just as pissed if you call me a bitxh, ****, dumb Polack or any other insult (my husband and kids are polish). I don't know why one group of people gets to claim a nuclear option but others don't. To me Retard is nuclear and I want to rip your f'n head off when I hear it. That doesn't make it any worse or better than any other insult
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 10:26:53 GMT -5
Society isn't perfect and there are words that just shouldn't be said no matter what the intent behind them is. I think this is a good lesson for the kid who dropped the N-bomb that people react strongly to that word so he should stop using it.
Maybe a better lesson is to have him research the history of the word so he can see WHY society is so against people saying it.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 14, 2014 10:27:00 GMT -5
In our society (here in the US), it isn't anything close to as bad as the n-word. We don't use the word "ginger" in that way. It's just a term for a red-haired person to us and not intended to be derogatory. I don't know anything about ginger...my point was that one insult is just as offensive as another. Why is one nuclear while another isn't? If you are saying something to me to offend me, it doesn't matter what the word is. I will be just as pissed if you call me a bitxh, ****, dumb Polack or any other insult (my husband and kids are polish). I don't know why one group of people gets to claim a nuclear option but others don't. To me Retard is nuclear and I want to rip your f'n head off when I hear it. That doesn't make it any worse or better than any other insult I definitely agree. An insult is an insult. If you insult someone by calling them a derogatory name, that's wrong and kids need to learn it's wrong. Some words are known to be insults. "Ginger", in this country, isn't. To be fair, though, we don't know what these kids said to one another. All we know is the n-word and the word "ginger" were used. Out of context, "ginger" isn't an insult but the n-word is.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 10:27:25 GMT -5
To me taking South Park literally would be akin to getting your news from the Onion. I don't see much how anyone could, but I'm presented with evidence daily that teaches me otherwise... So I don't know how people might take things...
It's a bit scary actually.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 14, 2014 10:29:03 GMT -5
It's all in the context. In polish, the words for polish person are polka(female) and polak(male). If someone says you're a polak because they don't know the correct term is Pole, I'm ok with it. If someone is making polish jokes and says stupid polak, that gets corrected as not acceptable. Not even close to N word but still completely unacceptable( unless black person to black person) I notice that some redheads turn the word ginger into a positive. Is that also a term that can only be used between redheads? Generally ginger and polak are in the same acceptance level as insulting family members. I can do it because she's my sister, but don't you dare try it. But why is calling someone a Polack not as bad as calling someone an N? They are bioth derogatory. I stand by my statement that one insult is just as bad as another. I don't use the word "polack". I know the proper term to be "Pole". However, I wouldn't consider the word "polack", by itself, to be an insult necessarily. It would depend on how it was said and by whom. Now "dumb polack" is another matter. That's an insult, but the insult is in the additional word "dumb".
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 10:29:06 GMT -5
To me taking South Park literally would be akin to getting your news from the Onion. I don't see much how anyone could, but I'm presented with evidence daily that teaches me otherwise... So I don't know how people might take things... It's a bit scary actually. Exactly! Which is what brought Idiocracy to mind.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 10:29:53 GMT -5
I think there are degrees of insult. I'd barely pause at bitch, but call me a c word and the reaction is more visceral... Different connotations.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2014 10:35:35 GMT -5
But why is calling someone a Polack not as bad as calling someone an N? They are bioth derogatory. I stand by my statement that one insult is just as bad as another. I don't use the word "polack". I know the proper term to be "Pole". However, I wouldn't consider the word "polack", by itself, to be an insult necessarily. It would depend on how it was said and by whom. Now "dumb polack" is another matter. That's an insult, but the insult is in the additional word "dumb". I grew up in an area where there are a lot of polish people. Polack was used as an insult to mean the person was stupid.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 10:35:56 GMT -5
They are kids still. I guess.
My only pause would be, well, in that SP episode they basically took all the connotations of the n word and applied them to 'ginger' ... So IF the first kid actually took it as a slur of that magnitude, while it dies not justify retaliating with one, it might seem unfair that one was treated like the other, in the mind of that kid. Those things can fester and have the opposite impact intended.
It's an if though, as I have no idea how anything was taken or given... Most likely we are guving this more thought than the boys involved...
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