Green Eyed Lady
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Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Dec 19, 2014 21:34:28 GMT -5
I'm not saying that is what everyone should do b2r. I'm just saying that is me. Your scenario is completely different than the thread topic. If someone were in my home, I would consider myself in immediate danger and under threat of physical harm. They come into my home, I am in danger, and they are dead. I don't know their intentions. I don't know if they are armed. I don't know if they are there to take things or hurt me. Personally, I am not going to ask them or wait to find out. However, if they are in my garage and have to come through two locked doors to get into my home, I'm calling the police. Everyone has the right to choose their own avenue.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 19, 2014 22:14:18 GMT -5
If they bust in your house I don't think anyone has a problem- but it should at least be reasonable- sitting and waiting and intending to kill people coming down the stairs is not reasonable, and even if the first shot or two was- adding 'finishing shots' after they are down and not calling the police or ambulance was not.
This man was not burgled- someone trespassed- and self-defense in no way gives a right to kill a trespasser- and in my state the law specifically states you cannot use deadly force to prevent a trespass or to stop a theft of property- TX might I think they allow murder over property there- a real bastion of morality.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 20, 2014 9:19:32 GMT -5
I share a driveway with my next door neighbors. When they leave their garage door open, I call them first to make sure it's okay if I close it. I don't just wander onto their property or into their garage willy nilly. That's called trespassing. I'm absolutely ASTOUNDED that you could figure out that wandering into another's garage might be wrong! Astounded, I say. Utterly astounded. Where on Earth did you learn this? Oddly enough, I actually had parents who did bother to teach me right from wrong and if I had done wrong, they'd have not blamed the other person. Trespassing is wrong, no matter how you try to excuse it. I feel guilty when I look at my neighbors patio to see what new stuff she's planted. She's a master Gardner and her back area is amazing. I try to not get onto her property to peek but I have to kind of go around into the common area behind all our properties to see it. But she is usually around anyway so if I ask what's new? She shows me. But to just meander onto her property? Hell no! She even asked me if she could plant something she bought for DF for his birthday before doing it and it basically is behind our property and not even our land! But I've glommed onto it because I can see it and want it pretty. But our parents raised us to be respectful of other people's stuff and property. I tried to raise mine to do the same thing but other parents seemed to have missed the boat.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 20, 2014 9:21:19 GMT -5
Before anyone gets pissy about me appropriating land that isn't ours to plant stuff on, it belongs to the association that we are a part of and they don't care what we do with it as long as they don't have to pay for it or maintain it.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 20, 2014 15:18:47 GMT -5
If they bust in your house I don't think anyone has a problem- but it should at least be reasonable- sitting and waiting and intending to kill people coming down the stairs is not reasonable, and even if the first shot or two was- adding 'finishing shots' after they are down and not calling the police or ambulance was not.
This man was not burgled- someone trespassed- and self-defense in no way gives a right to kill a trespasser- and in my state the law specifically states you cannot use deadly force to prevent a trespass or to stop a theft of property- TX might I think they allow murder over property there- a real bastion of morality.
I would like to start by saying I do not share this homeowner's bloodlust, and I frankly find the man's whole demeanor and statements about the matter disturbing, but it is his home, and there is no doubt that the intent of the deceased was to, as he had done several times before, trespass in order to steal property. Here's what I don't find wrong with deadly force to defend property: property is life. If I spend a day of my life working, that's a day I can never get back. If I spend that day working and I use the proceeds of my efforts that day which I can never get back, to acquire something, and someone takes it- they've taken my life- that day anyway. To replace that item that was stolen, I must exchange another day of my life for it-- that's forced labor or slavery. No one is entitled to do that to someone else, and our basic morality must instruct people that the consequences for such action may be death.So, while I personally disagree with the homeowner's decisions, I have no problem supporting them from a legal / policy standpoint. I favor the freedom of choice to use deadly force to defend one's life spent acquiring property, or to prevent their future forced labor. Once again, I think the morality is turned on its head- the trespassing thief can NEVER, to my way of thinking, be a "victim".
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 20, 2014 15:19:32 GMT -5
Before anyone gets pissy about me appropriating land that isn't ours to plant stuff on, it belongs to the association that we are a part of and they don't care what we do with it as long as they don't have to pay for it or maintain it. Smart. The economics of that is that it gives individuals an incentive to maintain it.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 20, 2014 18:49:00 GMT -5
Here's what I don't find wrong with deadly force to defend property: property is life. If I spend a day of my life working, that's a day I can never get back. If I spend that day working and I use the proceeds of my efforts that day which I can never get back, to acquire something, and someone takes it- they've taken my life- that day anyway. To replace that item that was stolen, I must exchange another day of my life for it-- that's forced labor or slavery. No one is entitled to do that to someone else, and our basic morality must instruct people that the consequences for such action may be death.So, while I personally disagree with the homeowner's decisions, I have no problem supporting them from a legal / policy standpoint. I favor the freedom of choice to use deadly force to defend one's life spent acquiring property, or to prevent their future forced labor. Once again, I think the morality is turned on its head- the trespassing thief can NEVER, to my way of thinking, be a "victim". That's an immoral position. Even the good book says an eye for an eye, not an eye for an IPOD. It's just a bunch of stuff that is going to be a pile of dust one day just like you- not worth killing anyone over. Sure it is upsetting- So far I have had a car and a boat stolen, I was broke into and had some guns, tv, guitars taken-but that's what insurance is for. Replaced it all- didn't have to work a single extra hour either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 19:34:03 GMT -5
Here's what I don't find wrong with deadly force to defend property: property is life. If I spend a day of my life working, that's a day I can never get back. If I spend that day working and I use the proceeds of my efforts that day which I can never get back, to acquire something, and someone takes it- they've taken my life- that day anyway. To replace that item that was stolen, I must exchange another day of my life for it-- that's forced labor or slavery. No one is entitled to do that to someone else, and our basic morality must instruct people that the consequences for such action may be death.So, while I personally disagree with the homeowner's decisions, I have no problem supporting them from a legal / policy standpoint. I favor the freedom of choice to use deadly force to defend one's life spent acquiring property, or to prevent their future forced labor. Once again, I think the morality is turned on its head- the trespassing thief can NEVER, to my way of thinking, be a "victim". That's an immoral position. Even the good book says an eye for an eye, not an eye for an IPOD. It's just a bunch of stuff that is going to be a pile of dust one day just like you- not worth killing anyone over. Sure it is upsetting- So far I have had a car and a boat stolen, I was broke into and had some guns, tv, guitars taken-but that's what insurance is for. Replaced it all- didn't have to work a single extra hour either. Au contraire... you worked many "single extra hour{s}"... to pay for the insurance that wouldn't have been necessary if there weren't thieves. Basically, you worked to pay to replace everything that was stolen... ahead of time (and if you still have theft insurance, you are still working to pay for it).
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Dec 20, 2014 19:40:04 GMT -5
Not to mention, with these claims your insurance is bound to go up and you'll be working longer to pay for it.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 20, 2014 20:12:54 GMT -5
The insurance is necessary- theft is just a small component of it.
Works a lot better than sitting around with a gun trying to catch a thief too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 21:12:40 GMT -5
The insurance is necessary- theft is just a small component of it.
Works a lot better than sitting around with a gun trying to catch a thief too. Is it a "small component" that you pay for... that the Insurance Industry amortizes into it's cost of doing business? If you said "yes" (which you had to do, unless you were lying), then my point is valid. You paid (and are still paying) for it... and TO pay for it, you worked many "single extra hour{s}"
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 20, 2014 22:23:02 GMT -5
So does everyone if you want to get down to it- a small price for civility instead of PBP complaining his junk is so important it should deserve protection under the law to kill someone who attempts to take some of it.
But unlike his assertion- I had to do nothing except file a claim- so no overtime, no extra hours. I was paying for it anyway- that's the way it works.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 22:34:18 GMT -5
So does everyone if you want to get down to it- a small price for civility instead of PBP complaining his junk is so important it should deserve protection under the law to kill someone who attempts to take some of it. But unlike his assertion- I had to do nothing except file a claim- so no overtime, no extra hours. I was paying for it anyway- that's the way it works. You are missing the point though... if it wasn't for thieves stealing stuff... you wouldn't HAVE to have insurance to cover theft losses. So, BOTH of you work extra to replace stolen stuff. If you think about it, you actually do it worse than Paul does... because you do it through insurance and if something DOESN'T get stolen, you just basically threw away all that extra work you did to earn that money to pay the premium. Both of you are betting on theft. Basically you only win the bet (get value for the money you gave to the insurance company) if you win (get stuff stolen from you), and Paul only wins the bet (has no cost to replace stuff) if he wins (gets no stuff stolen from him). ETA: If thieves know that Paul is accepting of death to them for them even attempting stealing stuff, and you are not o.k. with it... I'd bet you both win (your house would be stolen from, his house wouldn't be) if the only two houses available to steal from are yours and his. So... congratulations? on your victory?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 20, 2014 22:38:11 GMT -5
Well, I keep my garage door closed at all times. It also is alarmed. If someone is dumb enough to set off my alarm and not run away, they deserve whatever happens to them. I have insurance to protect my stuff from fire or other natural causes, not feral people.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 21, 2014 0:41:07 GMT -5
I wasn't aware there were homeowner policies that exclude theft for a discount.
So Zib if you come home one day and your missing a lot of expensive things you aren't going to file a claim?
BTW why have an alarm at all- that is paying for theft as well isn't it?
I'd call it smart.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 6:28:22 GMT -5
I wasn't aware there were homeowner policies that exclude theft for a discount.
So Zib if you come home one day and your missing a lot of expensive things you aren't going to file a claim?
BTW why have an alarm at all- that is paying for theft as well isn't it?
I'd call it smart. I'd call it smart too. However, my point wasn't about "smart" or not... My point was you paid (and had to work, so you could pay) for theft (whether or not it happens), contrary to your "didn't have to work a single extra hour either." stance.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Dec 21, 2014 11:16:04 GMT -5
Here's what I don't find wrong with deadly force to defend property: property is life. If I spend a day of my life working, that's a day I can never get back. If I spend that day working and I use the proceeds of my efforts that day which I can never get back, to acquire something, and someone takes it- they've taken my life- that day anyway. To replace that item that was stolen, I must exchange another day of my life for it-- that's forced labor or slavery. No one is entitled to do that to someone else, and our basic morality must instruct people that the consequences for such action may be death.So, while I personally disagree with the homeowner's decisions, I have no problem supporting them from a legal / policy standpoint. I favor the freedom of choice to use deadly force to defend one's life spent acquiring property, or to prevent their future forced labor. Once again, I think the morality is turned on its head- the trespassing thief can NEVER, to my way of thinking, be a "victim". That's an immoral position. Even the good book says an eye for an eye, not an eye for an IPOD. It's just a bunch of stuff that is going to be a pile of dust one day just like you- not worth killing anyone over. Sure it is upsetting- So far I have had a car and a boat stolen, I was broke into and had some guns, tv, guitars taken-but that's what insurance is for. Replaced it all- didn't have to work a single extra hour either.
I wonder if the thieves had a background check done on the people they sold your gun to?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 21, 2014 11:24:36 GMT -5
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 21, 2014 16:05:18 GMT -5
Probably not- but the cops have the serial numbers at least- might turn up in a pawn shop one day. If only there were some kind of registry............
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 21, 2014 16:52:57 GMT -5
Here's what I don't find wrong with deadly force to defend property: property is life. If I spend a day of my life working, that's a day I can never get back. If I spend that day working and I use the proceeds of my efforts that day which I can never get back, to acquire something, and someone takes it- they've taken my life- that day anyway. To replace that item that was stolen, I must exchange another day of my life for it-- that's forced labor or slavery. No one is entitled to do that to someone else, and our basic morality must instruct people that the consequences for such action may be death.So, while I personally disagree with the homeowner's decisions, I have no problem supporting them from a legal / policy standpoint. I favor the freedom of choice to use deadly force to defend one's life spent acquiring property, or to prevent their future forced labor. Once again, I think the morality is turned on its head- the trespassing thief can NEVER, to my way of thinking, be a "victim". That's an immoral position. Even the good book says an eye for an eye, not an eye for an IPOD. It's just a bunch of stuff that is going to be a pile of dust one day just like you- not worth killing anyone over. Sure it is upsetting- So far I have had a car and a boat stolen, I was broke into and had some guns, tv, guitars taken-but that's what insurance is for. Replaced it all- didn't have to work a single extra hour either. Nonsense. I just explained precisely why it's not "just property", it is the essence of life itself, and when property is defiled, life itself is defiled.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 21, 2014 17:09:21 GMT -5
That's an immoral position. Even the good book says an eye for an eye, not an eye for an IPOD. It's just a bunch of stuff that is going to be a pile of dust one day just like you- not worth killing anyone over. Sure it is upsetting- So far I have had a car and a boat stolen, I was broke into and had some guns, tv, guitars taken-but that's what insurance is for. Replaced it all- didn't have to work a single extra hour either. Au contraire... you worked many "single extra hour{s}"... to pay for the insurance that wouldn't have been necessary if there weren't thieves. Basically, you worked to pay to replace everything that was stolen... ahead of time (and if you still have theft insurance, you are still working to pay for it). I will say that insurance typically doesn't cover "mysterious disappearance". If there's no forced entry, or the item isn't forcibly taken from you- that's not considered theft covered by insurance.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 21, 2014 17:44:37 GMT -5
Well I had a brick tossed through my back door so no questions there.
And say what you will- my TV is not the essence of my life- nothing I own is- it could all go up in flames tomorrow and I will buy what I need moving forward and probably get rid of a bunch of clutter and junk in the process. Depends on how you look at things I guess.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 21, 2014 17:49:00 GMT -5
It exactly like what happened at work a while back- I let a coworker use my computer and he got it infected with cryptolocker- all of the photos, files, etc. were gone- I was pissed for about a week. That was it- just started over- not that hard- and I got rid of a bunch of crap in the process I never would have on my own.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 21, 2014 17:52:05 GMT -5
"Nonsense. I just explained precisely why it's not "just property", it is the essence of life itself, and when property is defiled, life itself is defiled."
Such friggin melodramatic rubbish. When my apartment was burglarized, I sure as shit didn't feel my life had been defiled.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 21, 2014 17:56:43 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 21, 2014 18:04:32 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 22, 2014 14:14:15 GMT -5
Well I had a brick tossed through my back door so no questions there.
And say what you will- my TV is not the essence of my life- nothing I own is- it could all go up in flames tomorrow and I will buy what I need moving forward and probably get rid of a bunch of clutter and junk in the process. Depends on how you look at things I guess.
At some point, you will acknowledge that a theft is unacceptable. What if someone were to take your house? They force you out, they move in? It's just a house- a material possession. Do you have the right to defend it?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 22, 2014 14:16:46 GMT -5
It exactly like what happened at work a while back- I let a coworker use my computer and he got it infected with cryptolocker- all of the photos, files, etc. were gone- I was pissed for about a week. That was it- just started over- not that hard- and I got rid of a bunch of crap in the process I never would have on my own.
Next time get iDrive or Carbonite. And shoot that idiot.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Dec 22, 2014 14:18:05 GMT -5
I share a driveway with my next door neighbors. When they leave their garage door open, I call them first to make sure it's okay if I close it. I don't just wander onto their property or into their garage willy nilly. That's called trespassing. I'm absolutely ASTOUNDED that you could figure out that wandering into another's garage might be wrong! Astounded, I say. Utterly astounded. Where on Earth did you learn this? My neighbor called me one Sunday morning to apologize for going into my garage the night before to get some beer from my beer fridge because he had run out during the PTO meeting they were having at his house... LOL. Good thing I sleep heavily and don't own a gun.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 22, 2014 15:09:45 GMT -5
Yes, it is. How'd he get into your garage?
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