frankq
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Post by frankq on May 4, 2014 9:09:24 GMT -5
"That's pretty much it- crime has been dropping for decades- and continues to drop- and the NRA and gun ownership has jack to do with it- in fact gun ownership was going DOWN during this time.
Of course if we wanted to discuss real gun control we would look at the crime rates outside of the US where they have severely restricted gun ownership- and of course we know what happened in those countries- something the NRA likes to sweep under the rug. It is no secret gun crime is so high in the USA- by their own logic these other countries should be overflowing with crime. Yet- not so."
Not even close........ Lets take a look....
* In 1920, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess any firearm except a shotgun. To obtain this certificate, the applicant had to pay a fee, and the chief of police had to be "satisfied" that the applicant had "good reason for requiring such a certificate" and did not pose a "danger to the public safety or to the peace." The certificate had to specify the types and quantities of firearms and ammunition that the applicant could purchase and keep.[38]
* In 1968, Britain made the 1920 law stricter by requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess a shotgun. This law also required that firearm certificates specify the identification numbers ("if known") of all firearms and shotguns owned by the applicant.[39]
* In 1997, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to surrender almost all privately owned handguns to the police. More than 162,000 handguns and 1.5 million pounds of ammunition were "compulsorily surrendered" by February 1998. Using "records of firearms held on firearms certificates," police accounted for all but fewer than eight of all legally owned handguns in England, Scotland, and Wales.[40]
www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
Not counting the above-listed anomalies, ( in a chart too large to post, you can check it out the homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.[42]
www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
As far as the rest of Europe, you can check this out. In a nutshell, countries with the highest gun ownership (like Norway) have the lowest crime. Worth noting is Russia, which has all but eradicated private gun ownership and has one of if not the highest murder rate in Europe.
theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/
In Austrailia, crime is up since banning guns....
www.worldpublicunion.org/2013-04-05-NEWS-australian-gun-ban-resulted-in-higher-crime-rates.html freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2974487/posts www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php/index.php?Article_ID=17847
* In 1982, the city of Chicago instituted a ban on handguns. This ban barred civilians from possessing handguns except for those registered with the city government prior to enactment of the law. The law also specified that such handguns had to be re-registered every two years or owners would forfeit their right to possess them. In 1994, the law was amended to require annual re-registration.[43] [44] [45]
* In the wake of Chicago's handgun ban, at least five suburbs surrounding Chicago instituted similar handgun bans. When the Supreme Court overturned the District of Columbia's handgun ban in June 2008, at least four of these suburbs repealed their bans.[46] [47] [48] [49] [50]
* Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect.[55]
* In 2005, 96% of the firearm murder victims in Chicago were killed with handguns.[56]
Since the outset of the Michigan right-to-carry law, the Michigan murder rate has averaged 4% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 2% lower.[119]
* Since the outset of the Texas right-to-carry law, the Texas murder rate has averaged 30% lower than it was before the law took effect, while the U.S. murder rate has averaged 28% lower
And lets remember that Texas is one of the fastest growing states in the nation.
Lets also remember that the most accurate polls on the subject rely on self reporting of gun ownership and mistrust of government is pretty high.... Lots of people would rather keep it to themselves.
www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993
www.gallup.com/.../self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.as...
The New York Times cites the General Social Survey to claim that the gun ownership rate is low and falling. Here is something that I wrote in my 2003 book The Bias Against Guns.
A few years ago, while I was doing research at the University of Chicago, I had lunch with Tom Smith, who is the director of the General Social Survey at the National Opinion Research Center (NORC). This private organization conducts many important national surveys for the government as well as other clients. During lunch Tom mentioned how important he thought the General Social Survey was. He felt the large drop in gun ownership implied by his survey would “make it easier for politicians to do the right thing on guns” and pass more restrictive regulations. His surveys have traditionally shown one of the lowest gun ownership rates among any of the surveys: for example, almost 20 percentage points lower than recent polling by John Zogby. . . .Tom Smith is still the director of the GSS. It is interesting to note that both the JAMA study this week as well as Tom Smith have received funding from the Joyce Foundation.
The Joyce Foundation embraces gun control initiatives, as implied by Lott’s comments
www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/11/has-the-rate-of-gun-ownership-in-american-homes-really-decreased-this-dramatically/
blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/guns-present-polling-conundrum-1223/
I don't know where you get your info, but I'll take a pass on the NYT stuff. You guys can believe what you want and swallow what media outlets like the NYT want to feed you. Background checks over the last few years are at their peak. .In my opinion, your info is flawed.
I think there is going to be a certain level of crime regardless of laws- whether you arm every citizen and let them carry everywhere, whether you have the death penalty or not, whether you have strict gun control laws or not.
On this we agree...but I'll go with less gun control thanks...There you go, not one NRA source.....
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frankq
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Post by frankq on May 4, 2014 9:40:59 GMT -5
i am not dogmatic. i am swayed by what i read. sway me.
See the above..as for not being dogmatic.....well....
I don't want to turn this thread into a gun control thing. We're done now.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 4, 2014 10:42:51 GMT -5
i am not dogmatic. i am swayed by what i read. sway me.
See the above..as for not being dogmatic.....well....
well what? you don't know me, frankq. i don't know you. i intend to keep it that way.
I don't want to turn this thread into a gun control thing. We're done now. i don't give a crap what you want. this is not about you, bro. nor is it about me.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 4, 2014 10:57:48 GMT -5
Not even close........ Lets take a look....
* In 1920, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess any firearm except a shotgun. To obtain this certificate, the applicant had to pay a fee, and the chief of police had to be "satisfied" that the applicant had "good reason for requiring such a certificate" and did not pose a "danger to the public safety or to the peace." The certificate had to specify the types and quantities of firearms and ammunition that the applicant could purchase and keep.[38]
i don't know why this website mentions the 1920 law, since their study period starts in 1968. * In 1968, Britain made the 1920 law stricter by requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess a shotgun. This law also required that firearm certificates specify the identification numbers ("if known") of all firearms and shotguns owned by the applicant.[39]
* In 1997, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to surrender almost all privately owned handguns to the police. More than 162,000 handguns and 1.5 million pounds of ammunition were "compulsorily surrendered" by February 1998. Using "records of firearms held on firearms certificates," police accounted for all but fewer than eight of all legally owned handguns in England, Scotland, and Wales.[40]
www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
Not counting the above-listed anomalies, ( in a chart too large to post, you can check it out the homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.[42]
www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
As far as the rest of Europe, you can check this out. In a nutshell, countries with the highest gun ownership (like Norway) have the lowest crime. Worth noting is Russia, which has all but eradicated private gun ownership and has one of if not the highest murder rate in Europe.
There you go, not one NRA source.....
true, but TheBlaze and WSJonline are pretty crappy sources. i like the justfacts site, and i find this evidence fairly compelling. point conceded. you win this one. how is that for dogmatic?
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 4, 2014 11:05:25 GMT -5
Well I could take the time to dispute what justfacts has to say about crime in these other countries- but not going to make a difference. This person summed it up well:
www.cwu.edu/~garrisop/FactCheck_v_JustFacts.pdf
JustFacts.com presents a rather emotionally charged summary of the gun control issue right at the start, asking, in its introduction, “Does increased government control of firearms lead to a more civilized, less violent society; or does it leave law abiding citizens at the mercy of violent criminals?"
The web site's two authors – James D. Agresti and Stephen F. Cardone - both hold bachelor’s degrees, the former in Engineering, the latter in Psychology. Neither has any background experience that would make him an expert on any of the fourteen major issues this web site tackles. Despite claims of being “researchers,” they seem to rely mainly on the research of others (as do journalists). Neither has published any peer-reviewed research. Agresti ... is a conservative Christian who has written a book that purports to have uncovered objective evidence for the literal accuracy of the Bible.
No not the NRA, but just about as worthless.
Gallup is a valid source- and if you take out the Obama blip in gun ownership you will see it has been trending down- look at a better graph from gallup:
www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 4, 2014 11:12:56 GMT -5
nice counterargument, EVT. i don't have time for Gish's Gallup this morning, so i appreciate the effort. edit: i really thought the WaPo article was pretty objective. that is why i posted it. but apparently objectivity is not what we are after, here. edit2: i found this critique of the site pretty amusing: I have presented here only a small sample of what is available on this web site. An entire college course could (and probably should) be de voted to an exploration of the logical flaws and deliberate misrepresentation on display here.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 4, 2014 11:45:43 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 4, 2014 16:50:38 GMT -5
I think I'll side with the Harvard ICRC conclusion mentioned in the fackcheck.org article: In 2008, the Harvard Injury Control Research Center reviewed the reams of scientific research on concealed gun-carrying laws and broadly concluded “the changes have neither been highly beneficial nor highly detrimental.”
There are two reasons why the effects of CCW laws on crime are likely to be negligible, the authors wrote. First, only a tiny percentage of the population seeks to obtain a concealed weapon permit. And those who do tend to be from groups who are at relatively low risk for either crime perpetration or victimization. They are generally older, higher-income, rural whites. It's not, actually. The piece is less objective than the work it's criticizing, and it randomly attacks fewer than 10 of the 1,000+ gun statistics on JustFacts. I'm not saying JustFacts is just peachy. Their conclusions should certainly be scrutinized. But Reply #95 isn't even a counterargument, let alone a "nice" one. Reply #97 is a counterargument.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 4, 2014 17:29:27 GMT -5
I was looking for a quick summation of justfacts as a source- rather than having to spend a week exposing their bias
I am just shooting down the idea of gun laws being a cause of anything- and that cuts both ways. Some could take my argument as gun control laws are not effective.
What is complete bullshit is more guns or less gun regulation=less crime. The USA stands out quite well when it comes to guns and crimes. But the good news is the crime rates are still dropping- so what if some people want to credit guns. I credit global warming for the drop in crime
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 5, 2014 8:24:20 GMT -5
It's funny watching one admin up one posters butt with kissing it and another so not. Like parents defending a child. One thinks the kids a shit and the other thinks its god.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 5, 2014 9:07:57 GMT -5
It's funny watching one admin up one posters butt with kissing it and another so not. Like parents defending a child. One thinks the kids a shit and the other thinks its god. Really, zib? Show us what you're talking about, please. Give us some post numbers that prove your point. Otherwise, you need to stop targeting posters with your opinions of what they think, since you don't have a clue what they think; particularly, what they think about another poster. Keep your comments relevant to the discussion and off other posters. mmhmm, Administrator
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 5, 2014 9:17:14 GMT -5
We didn't have gangs 1968
Almost all of the gun crime is gang members in the Capitol...and they shoot each other.
Burglars don't have them...householders don't have them.....General public doesn't have them.. Though Farmers have shot guns to protect their livestock. Police don't have them....though they can call out an armed response unit if someone is wielding a gun.....and there are gun clubs where the weapons stay at the venue.
We have had a couple of maniacs on the loose in the last 45 years......including, not unlike the US.. when a man broke into a school and killed a class of 5 year olds and their teacher.(Dunblane)
After the public outrage..... there has been periodic gun and weapon amnesties to get these things out of circulation.
You can make statistics say whatever you want.....but the fact is the general population of the UK.... don't have them.... and don't want them.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 5, 2014 9:56:50 GMT -5
It's funny watching one admin up one posters butt with kissing it and another so not. Like parents defending a child. One thinks the kids a shit and the other thinks its god. Give 'em a break zib. Maybe they are posting as "people" rather than as mods? We have that right you know.... Jeez deminmaine not nearly as hardworking a mod as the ones getting grief. I didn't see any evidence of anybody being "up one posters [sic] butt". Nor, did I see any evidence of anyone else being "so not". Other posters than zib seem to be discussing the subject of the thread, not each other. I'll await contrary evidence from zib. I imagine I'm going to have a looooong wait.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 5, 2014 10:14:02 GMT -5
Sorry mmhmm, good point. Nor did I see it. I wuz just commenting that mods are allowed to post their opinions as people.... We sure are! If our posts don't carry a moderator/administrator signature, they're simply posts from another poster. Our opinions don't carry any more weight, any more onus, or any more importance than anyone else's.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 5, 2014 10:47:06 GMT -5
Washington was a Brit and the culture is quite similar.......but on this issue there is no comparison. Then again, we never had frontier towns.
Dunblane broke our hearts.....and still does. Carrying a weapon is likely to cause outrage and a stiff prison sentence.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 5, 2014 10:54:07 GMT -5
Washington was a Brit and the culture is quite similar.......but on this issue there is no comparison. Then again, we never had frontier towns. Dunblane broke our hearts.....and still does. Carrying a weapon is likely to cause outrage and a stiff prison sentence. Different country. In the US, there is the Bill of Right and the SECOND Amendment of the Bill of Rights is the right to bear arms. Jacking around with the Bill of Rights is comparable in Great Britain to abolishing the Monarchy.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 5, 2014 11:22:40 GMT -5
I'm aware of that The point was Britain frequently gets used for as justification for gun ownership in the US. Seeing as I'm in Britain and have been all my life....I get a right of reply. You are talking about two whole different outlooks.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 5, 2014 11:38:17 GMT -5
I kiss butt... ...I don't tell.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on May 5, 2014 12:06:35 GMT -5
Leave my butt alone.....
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 5, 2014 12:26:46 GMT -5
Leave my butt alone..... Yeesh. You smokers are so touchy.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 5, 2014 14:27:20 GMT -5
It's not, actually. The piece is less objective than the work it's criticizing, and it randomly attacks fewer than 10 of the 1,000+ gun statistics on JustFacts. what are they supposed to do, Virgil? attack all 1000+? the point was this: repeating claims is not research, any more than plagiarism is original work.
I'm not saying JustFacts is just peachy. Their conclusions should certainly be scrutinized. But Reply #95 isn't even a counterargument, let alone a "nice" one. Reply #97 is a counterargument. that's nice.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 5, 2014 14:28:26 GMT -5
I was looking for a quick summation of justfacts as a source- rather than having to spend a week exposing their bias
I am just shooting down the idea of gun laws being a cause of anything- and that cuts both ways. Some could take my argument as gun control laws are not effective.
What is complete bullshit is more guns or less gun regulation=less crime. The USA stands out quite well when it comes to guns and crimes. But the good news is the crime rates are still dropping- so what if some people want to credit guns. I credit global warming for the drop in crime it is the decline in the pirate population, imo.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 5, 2014 14:33:03 GMT -5
Washington was a Brit and the culture is quite similar.......but on this issue there is no comparison. Then again, we never had frontier towns. Dunblane broke our hearts.....and still does. Carrying a weapon is likely to cause outrage and a stiff prison sentence. Different country. In the US, there is the Bill of Right and the SECOND Amendment of the Bill of Rights is the right to bear arms. is it? Jacking around with the Bill of Rights is comparable in Great Britain to abolishing the Monarchy. is it?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 5, 2014 15:53:34 GMT -5
No, not at all, especially when you constantly post on every subject.
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 5, 2014 16:37:18 GMT -5
They ought to group them into categories, identify a principal hypothesis in each category, and present factual counterarguments to each hypothesis. The factcheck.org article does this without knowing it (i.e. without any references to the JustFacts article). Compiling a body of existing research (with citations), summarizing it, and augmenting it with one's own analysis and conclusions is the sine qua non of meta-analysis. Peer-reviewed journals are filled with meta-analyses, many of them highly celebrated for their utility. I assure you that they are very much considered to be research. I was looking for a quick summation of justfacts as a source- rather than having to spend a week exposing their bias
I am just shooting down the idea of gun laws being a cause of anything- and that cuts both ways. Some could take my argument as gun control laws are not effective.
What is complete bullshit is more guns or less gun regulation=less crime. The USA stands out quite well when it comes to guns and crimes. But the good news is the crime rates are still dropping- so what if some people want to credit guns. I credit global warming for the drop in crime Popular theory attributes declining crime rates to a combination of lower rates of drug use (coming down steadily from the drug-fueled cultures of the 70's and early 80's), dramatic increases in social welfare spending, declining public willingness to report both violent and nonviolent crimes, and lazier, less ambitious males in younger generations. We also have to note that rates of violent crimes skyrocketed during the 50's, 60's, and 70's, hence mean reversion likely plays a factor as well.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on May 5, 2014 16:42:37 GMT -5
But I thought those were supposed to be the good old days, where life was idyllic and this was a god-fearin' country!! My grandfather often says "The only thing 'good' about the 'good old days' is that they are gone!"
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Post by Tennesseer on May 5, 2014 16:44:38 GMT -5
But I thought those were supposed to be the good old days, where life was idyllic and this was a god-fearin' country!! My grandfather often says "The only thing 'good' about the 'good old days' is that they are gone!" The Cleaver family kept an arsenal in their basement.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 5, 2014 16:53:48 GMT -5
No, not at all, especially when you constantly post on every subject. Zib, this is the last time. Posters can post wherever they like. You posted this post and you don't even have anything to say about the subject! You seem more interested in taking jabs at the posters. If it continues, your posts will simply disappear. I hope I've made myself clear. mmhmm, Administrator
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 5, 2014 17:04:42 GMT -5
But I thought those were supposed to be the good old days, where life was idyllic and this was a god-fearin' country!! My grandfather often says "The only thing 'good' about the 'good old days' is that they are gone!" The 50's and 60's were the "good old days" for rural and small-town North America. The "good old days" for urban North America would have come a considerable time before that.
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Post by djAdvocate on May 5, 2014 18:13:09 GMT -5
They ought to group them into categories, identify a principal hypothesis in each category, and present factual counterarguments to each hypothesis. The factcheck.org article does this without knowing it (i.e. without any references to the JustFacts article). Compiling a body of existing research (with citations), summarizing it, and augmenting it with one's own analysis and conclusions is the sine qua non of meta-analysis. Peer-reviewed journals are filled with meta-analyses, many of them highly celebrated for their utility. I assure you that they are very much considered to be research. is it your opinion that any actual analysis was done?
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