djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 5, 2014 18:15:09 GMT -5
But I thought those were supposed to be the good old days, where life was idyllic and this was a god-fearin' country!! My grandfather often says "The only thing 'good' about the 'good old days' is that they are gone!" The 50's and 60's were the "good old days" for rural and small-town North America. The "good old days" for urban North America would have come a considerable time before that. nostalgia for an age that never existed.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 5, 2014 18:48:41 GMT -5
Not a whole lot, I agree. I was more addressing your general statement "repeating claims is not research".
Anyway, it's not a big deal. It definitely did for some. I know plenty of seniors that enjoyed the fabled halcyon days of youth. I marvel at tales of what life was like for them--both good and bad.
Granted, most of these were men and women who grew up on the Canadian prairies--about as rural and small town as you can get.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 5, 2014 19:45:36 GMT -5
Not a whole lot, I agree. I was more addressing your general statement "repeating claims is not research". well, it isn't. not of you don't do any analysis. if you don't, it could be called "summarizing" or "collecting data", but the research part (i always thought) involved the analysis of the data toward to goal of proving or disproving a proposition.Anyway, it's not a big deal. It definitely did for some. I know plenty of seniors that enjoyed the fabled halcyon days of youth. I marvel at tales of what life was like for them--both good and bad. i think my point was that in the 50's and 60's, life sucked if you were a woman (generally speaking) or a person of color (generally speaking) in the US. so, yeah- it was great, if you were a white guy.Granted, most of these were men and women who grew up on the Canadian prairies--about as rural and small town as you can get. i have read Little House on the Prarie. i don't find it romantic at all. horrifying is the word i would use.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 5, 2014 23:54:31 GMT -5
"Research" simply means "systematic investigation". Formal research typically includes analysis, conclusions, and an element of novelty, but not all research is formal. For example, I could research hotel prices for a friend by visiting a few dozen hotel booking sites and entering pertinent data into a spreadsheet. It's up to my friend to draw his own conclusions based on the factors he considers important. That seems to be the approach taken by the JustFacts authors.
I actually don't mind it. It reminds me of older documentaries, which are/were typically just video footage and brief interviews, without the overriding narrative and analysis telling the viewer (reader) what to think.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 11:54:15 GMT -5
Using your comparison this means if I don't bait the criminals I can shoot them ? Does this apply to all convicted criminals and crime in progress ? There are additional conditions beyond baiting that must be satisfied for you to legally shoot a bear. There are specific conditions under which you can shoot someone legally. Really ? I always thought I could walk down the road, six guns blazing away at anyone who looked suspicious. I guess that's out. Now what am I supposed to do tonight.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 9, 2014 12:31:03 GMT -5
There are additional conditions beyond baiting that must be satisfied for you to legally shoot a bear. There are specific conditions under which you can shoot someone legally. Really ? I always thought I could walk down the road, six guns blazing away at anyone who looked suspicious. I guess that's out. Now what am I supposed to do tonight. Yeah, I thought it was a stupid ass question but sense you asked it, I thought I would answer it.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 13:19:59 GMT -5
Really ? I always thought I could walk down the road, six guns blazing away at anyone who looked suspicious. I guess that's out. Now what am I supposed to do tonight. Yeah, I thought it was a stupid ass question but sense you asked it, I thought I would answer it. I didn't think hunting regulations made a good comparison to the possible murder situation. The bears will come and feed at the bait with no conception of doing wrong. If baiting was allowed the bag limit would have to be lowered or the number of permits so all hunters have an equal chance. This regulation system prevents the bear population from being overly diminished. That is the only reason the hunting license/regulations exist. Controlling the harvest. This really has nothing to do with trap and murder. We don't control our human population that way. Does this help clarify my stupid ass question ? ("SINCE" I asked it )
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 17, 2014 17:03:37 GMT -5
Montana man convicted in exchange student's deathMISSOULA, Mont. (AP) — A Montana man who shot and killed a German exchange student caught trespassing in his garage was convicted of deliberate homicide Wednesday in a case that attracted attention as a test of "stand your ground" laws in the U.S. that govern the use of deadly force against attackers. Cheers erupted in the packed courtroom when the verdict was read in the case against Markus Kaarma, 30, of Missoula. Kaarma shot 17-year-old high school student Diren Dede in the early hours of April 27 after being alerted to an intruder by motion sensors. Witnesses testified Kaarma fired four shotgun blasts at Dede, who was unarmed. The teen's parents were in the courtroom and hugged and cried at the outcome, while others applauded. "It is very good," said Dede's father, Celal Dede, with tears in his eyes. "Long live justice." Kaarma remained stoic as he was taken into custody at the end of the hearing. He faces a minimum penalty of 10 years in prison when he is sentenced Feb. 11. His lawyers plan to appeal. Montana man convicted in exchange student's death
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 17, 2014 17:06:00 GMT -5
. Well, that should please some people.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 17, 2014 17:09:15 GMT -5
States need to clarify their laws in what a homeowner can and cannot do in defense of their property.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Dec 17, 2014 17:38:32 GMT -5
. Well, that should please some people. Why does that make you sad? He killed an unarmed kid who was in his garage with no warning given. The only reason to shoot someone in the given situation is anger & revenge, not self-defense. Had the kid not ran after being giving a warning or had the kid entered the house, that would be different.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 20:28:26 GMT -5
. Well, that should please some people. Why does that make you sad? He killed an unarmed kid who was in his garage with no warning given. The only reason to shoot someone in the given situation is anger & revenge, not self-defense. Had the kid not ran after being giving a warning or had the kid entered the house, that would be different. What good and valid reason did the "unarmed kid" have for being in the shooter's garage? Sorry. The Jury got this one wrong.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 17, 2014 21:02:44 GMT -5
Doesn't matter one bit why the kid was in the garage- only matters if it was self-defense or not- and it obviously was not.
FYI since you live in TN I would not recommend testing your theories on self-defense here
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 22:51:28 GMT -5
Doesn't matter one bit why the kid was in the garage- only matters if it was self-defense or not- and it obviously was not.
FYI since you live in TN I would not recommend testing your theories on self-defense here If someone is in my property (not standing on the ground I rent or own, but physically inside the structure of a building that I own), and I don't know WHY they are there, and there's no possible legitimate, lawful reason for them to BE there... it's self defense. And that's what I'd say in Jury deliberations. Maybe if he hadn't been in the man's garage in the first place, he might still be alive.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Dec 17, 2014 23:02:01 GMT -5
So...why was the kid in the garage?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Dec 17, 2014 23:04:01 GMT -5
Never mind. I remember the thread now. I thought it was a new one - but was just updated.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 17, 2014 23:19:54 GMT -5
Doesn't matter one bit why the kid was in the garage- only matters if it was self-defense or not- and it obviously was not.
FYI since you live in TN I would not recommend testing your theories on self-defense here If someone is in my property (not standing on the ground I rent or own, but physically inside the structure of a building that I own), and I don't know WHY they are there, and there's no possible legitimate, lawful reason for them to BE there... it's self defense. And that's what I'd say in Jury deliberations. Maybe if he hadn't been in the man's garage in the first place, he might still be alive. So you are pro-baiting people and then killing them on your property?
How can it be self-defense if you intentionally leave something out for them to steal and then when someone comes to do that, you kill them? Its basically deciding the penalty for theft is death.
Self defense is defending yourself. Self defense is not going out of your way to kill people just because you feel entitled to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 23:29:17 GMT -5
If someone is in my property (not standing on the ground I rent or own, but physically inside the structure of a building that I own), and I don't know WHY they are there, and there's no possible legitimate, lawful reason for them to BE there... it's self defense. And that's what I'd say in Jury deliberations. Maybe if he hadn't been in the man's garage in the first place, he might still be alive. So you are pro-baiting people and then killing them on your property?
How can it be self-defense if you intentionally leave something out for them to steal and then when someone comes to do that, you kill them? Its basically deciding the penalty for theft is death.
Self defense is defending yourself. Self defense is not going out of your way to kill people just because you feel entitled to.
I didn't say I was "pro baiting and killing" I said if someone is in my building, and they have no justifiable right to be there, and there's no legitimate reason for them to be there, then it's justifiably self defense. Is "laying a trap" immoral? Maybe... that's kind of on murky ground for me. But, that aside... did he have to go into the trap? did anyone force him to? No. He freely chose to enter into someone else's property that he KNEW he had no right to do.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 17, 2014 23:30:46 GMT -5
Doesn't matter one bit why the kid was in the garage- only matters if it was self-defense or not- and it obviously was not.
FYI since you live in TN I would not recommend testing your theories on self-defense here If someone is in my property (not standing on the ground I rent or own, but physically inside the structure of a building that I own), and I don't know WHY they are there, and there's no possible legitimate, lawful reason for them to BE there... it's self defense. And that's what I'd say in Jury deliberations. Maybe if he hadn't been in the man's garage in the first place, he might still be alive. Only if they are in your home- an open garage door is not going to cut it- might as well be a carport.
I'm not worried what you would do on a jury- you probably wouldn't make the cut anyway- I said it because you should know what is going to happen if you shoot someone under similar circumstances in this state- you will be the one in front of a jury.
* And maybe if the homeowner had any sense the kid would be alive too- and he wouldn't be headed to prison.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 17, 2014 23:41:07 GMT -5
Ok so you aren't pro-baiting. However, just because they are there does not mean nor guarantee they are a physical threat to you. It is only self defense if you actually need to defend yourself. Pre-emptive shooting or assault is generally not self defense.
I think there are more people like this homeowner going to do jail time in the future because they don't understand what self defense is legally versus what they want it to be. I don't think its going to change to be its legal to shoot anyone on your property you don't know unless we as a society or going to be fine on declaring open season on the population with dementia, alzheimers, or even children who aren't good with boundaries.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 17, 2014 23:48:19 GMT -5
Yep- in TN even if they bust into your house it is still only a rebuttable presumption that you are in fear for your life or great bodily harm.
And if they do not break in- like walking into an open garage- you do not even get that.
Even more interesting is you cannot use deadly force over trespassing or even theft of your property- it's codified.
It would do a lot of good if all gun owners had to attend some training or even be given a pamphlet with a purchase on the self-defense laws of their state. A lot of people are misinformed- some of those are doing time.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Dec 18, 2014 11:16:27 GMT -5
"This is why we can't have nice things"
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workpublic
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Catch and release please
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Post by workpublic on Dec 18, 2014 11:18:40 GMT -5
No thread about the 14 year old who saved his grandma by killing the returning theives in NC? His dad was murdered by theives when he the boy was 8.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Dec 18, 2014 11:42:29 GMT -5
No thread about the 14 year old who saved his grandma by killing the returning theives in NC? His dad was murdered by theives when he the boy was 8. And no link either.
Was probably self-defense
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Dec 19, 2014 12:47:06 GMT -5
Why does that make you sad? He killed an unarmed kid who was in his garage with no warning given. The only reason to shoot someone in the given situation is anger & revenge, not self-defense. Had the kid not ran after being giving a warning or had the kid entered the house, that would be different. What good and valid reason did the "unarmed kid" have for being in the shooter's garage? Sorry. The Jury got this one wrong. We don't know because he is dead. Maybe he was going to be nice & close the garage. I've accidently left mine open all night & told the neighbors if they see it open in the middle of the night to just go in & close it.
Sorry, but it isn't self-defense if there is no threat. At that moment there was no threat at all. And since they intentionally set up the garage as bait with the intention of killing whoever came in, that seems like murder to me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 19:55:47 GMT -5
What good and valid reason did the "unarmed kid" have for being in the shooter's garage? Sorry. The Jury got this one wrong. We don't know because he is dead. Maybe he was going to be nice & close the garage. I've accidently left mine open all night & told the neighbors if they see it open in the middle of the night to just go in & close it.
Sorry, but it isn't self-defense if there is no threat. At that moment there was no threat at all. And since they intentionally set up the garage as bait with the intention of killing whoever came in, that seems like murder to me.
In hind-sight we know there was no threat... was that known AT THE TIME? I doubt it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 19, 2014 19:59:13 GMT -5
I share a driveway with my next door neighbors. When they leave their garage door open, I call them first to make sure it's okay if I close it. I don't just wander onto their property or into their garage willy nilly. That's called trespassing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 20:07:56 GMT -5
I share a driveway with my next door neighbors. When they leave their garage door open, I call them first to make sure it's okay if I close it. I don't just wander onto their property or into their garage willy nilly. That's called trespassing. I'm absolutely ASTOUNDED that you could figure out that wandering into another's garage might be wrong! Astounded, I say. Utterly astounded. Where on Earth did you learn this?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Dec 19, 2014 20:08:42 GMT -5
In my simple mind, it's pretty simple. I would not hesitate to shoot someone in self-defense. That means that I...myself...me....my body is under threat of physical harm. I would never ever shoot someone for "things". I get the premise. I really really do. I get that we work hard for the things we have (most of us). I get that nobody has a right to take those things. I get the anger and frustration and sense of being violated when someone goes through your things and takes what they want. I do not get shooting someone who is not directly threatening me.
In my opinion, this situation is totally different than the situation where the man in the basement shot those two teenagers coming down the stairs. There aren't any similarities in the two cases in my opinion. Those two had come down my basement stairs, they were goners. I guess, from the court decision, I'd be in jail. But I'd still be alive to appeal.
On the flip-side, I do know that incidents like these make criminals thing twice before victimizing people. To me, that's a good thing. As I've said before, I can't remember ever celebrating the death of anyone, but there are sure some I won't miss. I can't sit here and pretend to mourn one who got caught in the act. If that makes me a shitty person, I guess that's what I am. But this guy did not do the right thing, IMO.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Dec 19, 2014 21:23:40 GMT -5
In my simple mind, it's pretty simple. I would not hesitate to shoot someone in self-defense. That means that I...myself...me....my body is under threat of physical harm. I would never ever shoot someone for "things". I get the premise. I really really do. I get that we work hard for the things we have (most of us). I get that nobody has a right to take those things. I get the anger and frustration and sense of being violated when someone goes through your things and takes what they want. I do not get shooting someone who is not directly threatening me.
In my opinion, this situation is totally different than the situation where the man in the basement shot those two teenagers coming down the stairs. There aren't any similarities in the two cases in my opinion. Those two had come down my basement stairs, they were goners. I guess, from the court decision, I'd be in jail. But I'd still be alive to appeal.
On the flip-side, I do know that incidents like these make criminals thing twice before victimizing people. To me, that's a good thing. As I've said before, I can't remember ever celebrating the death of anyone, but there are sure some I won't miss. I can't sit here and pretend to mourn one who got caught in the act. If that makes me a shitty person, I guess that's what I am. But this guy did not do the right thing, IMO. So, I'm home....I get burgled...as long as he/she does not threaten me, I should allow him/her to go about their business? I've walked by many-an-open garage door and was never tempted to go have a look-see.
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