Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Mar 20, 2014 10:31:38 GMT -5
Old people have no business on my porch, dammit!
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 20, 2014 11:00:27 GMT -5
Here's what I don't get....
I took a look at the clip, and it showed a picture of the house. It is not a townhouse, where each front door is identical to the next. The house looks like it is at least on a half an acre of ground. It does not look like all the adjacent houses are similar AND there looks like there was a gate in front.
How drunk was this guy that he could not tell that this house was not his?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 20, 2014 11:35:47 GMT -5
Judged by 12 or carried by 6? Ill take my chances with the 12!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 20, 2014 11:41:53 GMT -5
I'm familiar with that study. If I remember correctly it did not find that "most" of either victims or perpetrators had consumed alcohol. Seems to me it was around 50% and didn't go into detail about whether the individual was intoxicated or had had one drink. That doesn't constitute "most" were intoxicated, does it?
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Mar 20, 2014 12:04:42 GMT -5
Well, you're probably familiar with the notion that "intoxicated" covers more than "drunk" - I linked to two studies deliberately, the second concerns "date rape" drugs rather than alcohol specifically.
If 50% of victims (my claim; I'll let the perp claim defend itself, thanks) were intoxicated with alcohol, it would be necessary for 0% to be intoxicated with eg. GBH in order for the claim that "most" were intoxicated to be debunked. I find that unlikely, but then I don't have a nursing qualification.
"Buzzed driving is drunk driving," the ad campaign tells us. For good reason: even "one drink" can be sufficient to impair judgment, slow reactions, and lower inhibitions. But you can't expect me to believe you don't know this.
What gives, mmhmm? Is there some reason you don't want to accept that drug and alcohol abuse is a factor in rape, especially "acquaintance rape"? Or do you have some source, beyond your vast experience of the world, to refute the claim?
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Mar 20, 2014 12:06:54 GMT -5
In the second link, a survey of 1179 samples collected from victims of sexual assault showed 468 tested negative for any sort of drug or alcohol.
468/1179 < 0.5
711/1179, the number of samples positive for one or more substances, is around 60%. Or "most," colloquially.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 20, 2014 12:13:58 GMT -5
In the second link, a survey of 1179 samples collected from victims of sexual assault showed 468 tested negative for any sort of drug or alcohol.
468/1179 < 0.5
711/1179, the number of samples positive for one or more substances, is around 60%. Or "most," colloquially.
The number is probably skewed because those victims that are very drunk/drugged out are more unlikely to report a rape. The data also does not discern between those who were drugged without their knowledge, where it was slipped into a drink.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Mar 20, 2014 12:19:20 GMT -5
Neither did my claim, though. I just said most rape victims are intoxicated, I didn't specify how they got in that condition. I also shared your observation that intoxicated rape victims are less likely to report - in some cases, even to remember - the event.
To clear this up, in case there's any doubt, I'm not saying that women who imbibe or use recreational drugs are 'asking for it' - there's probably a significant correlation between opportunistic rape and the wearing of provocative attire, but that doesn't mean a girl in a short skirt is 'asking for it,' either. I just mentioned a data point.
We can challenge data points with other data points - that's what science is properly all about - or we can dispute what they mean (more the province of philosophy, in my opinion, although science helps us out there by allowing us to form falsifiable hypotheses generated from the data). We can only do that once they've been introduced to the conversation, however.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 20, 2014 12:19:46 GMT -5
Well, you're probably familiar with the notion that "intoxicated" covers more than "drunk" - I linked to two studies deliberately, the second concerns "date rape" drugs rather than alcohol specifically.
If 50% of victims (my claim; I'll let the perp claim defend itself, thanks) were intoxicated with alcohol, it would be necessary for 0% to be intoxicated with eg. GBH in order for the claim that "most" were intoxicated to be debunked. I find that unlikely, but then I don't have a nursing qualification.
"Buzzed driving is drunk driving," the ad campaign tells us. For good reason: even "one drink" can be sufficient to impair judgment, slow reactions, and lower inhibitions. But you can't expect me to believe you don't know this.
What gives, mmhmm? Is there some reason you don't want to accept that drug and alcohol abuse is a factor in rape, especially "acquaintance rape"? Or do you have some source, beyond your vast experience of the world, to refute the claim?
The study didn't say 50% of victims were intoxicated with alcohol. It said 50% had consumed alcohol. It didn't give details on how much alcohol each had consumed; nor, did it break it down from having had a glass of wine to having had a fifth of scotch. What gives? Simple. I've got a thing about spurious claims. It's really that simple. I didn't make any effort to refute the claim. I merely asked for the source. Terms like "most", "all", "the majority" are thrown around like confetti and are, for the most part, meaningless - if not spurious. For the record, I believe drug and alcohol use are most definitely factors in rape in many cases. I will not say "most" cases, however.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Mar 20, 2014 12:23:37 GMT -5
Okay, fair enough. 711/1179, lifted from the second link, is more specific. "Most" rolls more easily off the tongue, in my view.
I personally feel refutation of spurious claims does better service to the debate than challenge on the itself-spurious ground that they might be spurious, which is why I came back on it the way I did. As far as I'm concerned, if you think I'm wrong about something, prove me wrong and let's have at it (that's a general, not a specific, you).
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 20, 2014 12:32:49 GMT -5
Okay, fair enough. 711/1179, lifted from the second link, is more specific. "Most" rolls more easily off the tongue, in my view.
I personally feel refutation of spurious claims does better service to the debate than challenge on the itself-spurious ground that they might be spurious, which is why I came back on it the way I did. As far as I'm concerned, if you think I'm wrong about something, prove me wrong and let's have at it (that's a general, not a specific, you).
If I think you're wrong about something, I'll say so. I didn't. I asked for a source cite.
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Mar 20, 2014 12:34:09 GMT -5
Yes, I know. Like I said, it was a general, not a specific, you.
We're good.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Mar 20, 2014 15:06:35 GMT -5
I grew up not far from where this happened. Porter is a poor and "rough" town to say the least. My step father had his truck stolen last november from the Walmart parking lot while picking up a prescription... At 11am. It was found a few days later in the general area of this shooting (stripped if tens of thousands of dollars of tools) I would guess that there is a reason the woman has a revolver handy by the door. I can't blame the lady...
Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Mar 20, 2014 15:09:27 GMT -5
In the town where I was born, they'd steal anything that wasn't nailed down.
Things didn't get really bad until the big theft at the hardware store took all the nails...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2014 21:58:56 GMT -5
Also, most rapists consumed alcohol or drugs before raping their victims. Most rape victims, too. It's one component of the appallingly low report rate on that particular crime. Can either of you cite your source(s) for those statistics? No statistics on my statement, only observations from my years of working at a social service agency.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 20, 2014 22:02:40 GMT -5
Can either of you cite your source(s) for those statistics? No statistics on my statement, only observations from my years of working at a social service agency. Well, lonewolf, I've spent a whole lot of years working in hospitals, including their ERs, and I can't say I can verify your observations with my experience. Most of the rape victims I dealt with weren't impaired, unless you consider their horrified state of mind to be impairment. Mostly, they were just scared, and suffering from a horrific sense of violation.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Mar 20, 2014 22:08:25 GMT -5
I was going to ask you to cite a source too - apparently you don't have one.
While many rape incidents involve alcohol or drugs (including the date-rape drug), they also usually involve young people experimenting with and/or abusing these substances (teens/college students).
Rapes involving more mature adults, are usually due to a perversion or psychological problem on the part of the rapist. It's an act of violence.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2014 22:39:03 GMT -5
I was going to ask you to cite a source too - apparently you don't have one.
While many rape incidents involve alcohol or drugs (including the date-rape drug), they also usually involve young people experimenting with and/or abusing these substances (teens/college students).
Rapes involving more mature adults, are usually due to a perversion or psychological problem on the part of the rapist. It's an act of violence.
Yes, and from what I was told by victims and abusers, most often drugs or alcohol had been used before the offense and it was most always used as an excuse.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2014 22:40:37 GMT -5
No statistics on my statement, only observations from my years of working at a social service agency. Well, lonewolf, I've spent a whole lot of years working in hospitals, including their ERs, and I can't say I can verify your observations with my experience. Most of the rape victims I dealt with weren't impaired, unless you consider their horrified state of mind to be impairment. Mostly, they were just scared, and suffering from a horrific sense of violation. No! Not the rape victims. The abusers were on drugs or drinking at the time they offended.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 20, 2014 22:49:11 GMT -5
Well, lonewolf, I've spent a whole lot of years working in hospitals, including their ERs, and I can't say I can verify your observations with my experience. Most of the rape victims I dealt with weren't impaired, unless you consider their horrified state of mind to be impairment. Mostly, they were just scared, and suffering from a horrific sense of violation. No! Not the rape victims. The abusers were on drugs or drinking at the time they offended. Ahh. Sorry to have misinterpreted. Often, that was indeed the case.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 21, 2014 1:17:21 GMT -5
No! Not the rape victims. The abusers were on drugs or drinking at the time they offended. Ahh. Sorry to have misinterpreted. Often, that was indeed the case. If I read the Lizard King correctly he was saying that half of rape victims were also drinking or drugged up. Why that matters I have no idea other than to maybe blame the victim a little. Or maybe it is real simple- that rapes happen to women that are out at night more than those that do not go out, and it is a good chance that women that go out at night might have a drink. Pure wild ass speculation and a hijack of my thread. What could the point possibly be? Rapists like targeting women that are drinking- or is he taking the side of date rapists where no means yes?
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Mar 21, 2014 7:10:45 GMT -5
EVT, even for you that's absurd trolling.
I went to the trouble of clarifying that wasn't my intention precisely because I knew some numbnuts somewhere would run in that direction.
Or, in your case, be standing far out in that direction already, waiting for something you could take a swing at.
I do apologize for hijacking your thread. I know you have strong principles on this matter, since you've never hijacked one yourself.
I grant myself some credit for hijacking the thread by cleverly encouraging others to raise the issue of rape, and begin debating it, before my contribution.
It is not "wild ass speculation" - it is documented by the National Institutes of Health. It is not "blame the victim" - it is the case that in a survey spanning 49 states, the preponderance of victims, around 60%, tested positive for incapacitating substances. I don't know whether those substances were taken willingly or knowingly - it seems likely that the 48 who tested positive for GBH (not a component of the standard drug screen) didn't, for example, and there's usually at least a component of peer pressure in social drinking, particularly social drinking with a member of the opposite sex and particularly when that individual is a sexual predator motivated to encourage disinhibition.
If you want to get back to the topic of why it's not particularly smart to shoot somebody through a door, go back a few years and take it up with Joe Biden. And if anybody around here is taking a "blame the victim" approach, it's the guy vilifying the lonely and terrified elderly lady believing her home and person are under threat from a stranger who persists in trying to gain entry after being warned off.
California has proposed changes to the criteria for reporting rape, precisely because - even if the ramifications escape you, a male - campus rape is an endemic problem in which drink and drugs are a prominent component and the question of consent is made murkier by the all-too-frequent condition of intoxication of the victim. This may give you a clue as to "why that matters."
Congratulations, you got a bite I try not to assume you're a nihilistic pinhead spewing hate to compensate for perceived inadequacies in your own life; maybe you can extend me the same courtesy? I've worked with rape victims, personally and professionally - have you?
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Lizard King
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Post by Lizard King on Mar 22, 2014 10:58:09 GMT -5
Eh, it's the Internet. We're all multimillionaire hermaphrodite supermodel geniuses on here.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 22, 2014 19:39:15 GMT -5
Zing. But I feel it's my duty to explain: the left-approved policy is to never blame a drinker for harm that comes to him/her while in a state of intoxication. For example, if a woman gets drunk out of her mind, accepts a ride from the nice man who paid for her drinks all night, and is raped, we must conclude that this woman is in no way responsible for the harm that befell her. If she's victimized a second and third time, we must come to the same conclusion. If a man gets drunk off his can, mistakenly tries to gain access to a neighbour's house at a late hour, ignores warnings by the terrified owner to cease and desist, and is shot dead, we must conclude that this man is in no way responsible for the harm that befell him. If a man gets completely tanked, climbs over a fence into a lion exhibit at a zoo, and is eaten by lions, we must conclude that this man i- ... eh... actually, in this case the man is partly responsible. Animals strictly outrank drunk people in the leftist do-not-blame-for-anything hierarchy. But suppose instead of lions, the exhibit was full of gangsters. In that case, drunk people outrank gansters, and the man would not be responsible for his death. ...unless of course they were unsupervised child gangsters (age 8 and under), in which case the man would be responsible again. It gets complicated.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 22, 2014 20:17:25 GMT -5
I don't want to go back and try to dig it up, but I have to ask ... who said drunks never bear ANY responsibility when they suffer some calamity while potted to the gills?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 22, 2014 21:06:27 GMT -5
EVT states in Reply #140: "If I read the Lizard King correctly he was saying that half of rape victims were also drinking or drugged up. Why that matters I have no idea other than to maybe blame the victim a little." He then goes on to explain why we must not "blame the victim a little", and insinuates that Jim sympathizes with rapists.
If EVT is unwilling to "blame the victim a little", he clearly believes the drunk victim bears no responsibility for the calamity.
As for the rule applying to all calamities, I've clearly acknowledged that it doesn't. In most cases I find that people make a snap assessment of the more sympathetic party--perpetrator or victim--and hold this party "practically" blameless in the sense that any criticism of the chosen party is fiercely rebutted with explanations of why the non-chosen party is in fact far more to blame. The rules that leftists in particular use to select which party is "practically blameless" are a tangled web indeed; hence my satire about lions and gangsters.
By the definition of "practically blameless" I've just given, it's clear that the chosen party in this thread is the drunk firefighter. If I were to ask SL and EVT to assign blame for the tragedy to the shooter and to the firefighter by percentage weighting, it would greatly surprise me if either rated the firefighter more than 5% responsible.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 22, 2014 22:01:47 GMT -5
EVT states in Reply #140: "If I read the Lizard King correctly he was saying that half of rape victims were also drinking or drugged up. Why that matters I have no idea other than to maybe blame the victim a little." He then goes on to explain why we must not "blame the victim a little", and insinuates that Jim sympathizes with rapists. If EVT is unwilling to "blame the victim a little", he clearly believes the drunk victim bears no responsibility for the calamity. As for the rule applying to all calamities, I've clearly acknowledged that it doesn't. In most cases I find that people make a snap assessment of the more sympathetic party--perpetrator or victim--and hold this party "practically" blameless in the sense that any criticism of the chosen party is fiercely rebutted with explanations of why the non-chosen party is in fact far more to blame. The rules that leftists in particular use to select which party is "practically blameless" are a tangled web indeed; hence my satire about lions and gangsters. By the definition of "practically blameless" I've just given, it's clear that the chosen party in this thread is the drunk firefighter. If I were to ask SL and EVT to assign blame for the tragedy to the shooter and to the firefighter by percentage weighting, it would greatly surprise me if either rated the firefighter more than 5% responsible. You might be right. On the other hand, you might be wrong. Without asking SL and/or EVT, we don't have an answer to that one.
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