One more senseless killing- justified?

[zibazinski]

She needs more time at the gun range. I'm sorry for the guys stupidity but choices were made that night and he chose poorly. No one enjoys taking another persons life except sickos. I'm sorry for her. Too bad he wasn't a career criminal, though. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Mar 19, 2014 8:45:24 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

She needs more time at the gun range. I'm sorry for the guys stupidity but choices were made that night and he chose poorly. No one enjoys taking another persons life except sickos. I'm sorry for her. Too bad he wasn't a career criminal, though. 

She does as well as many cops, Zib.  I think in that shooting in NYC a couple years ago, the  2 cops fired 17 shots.  2 shots hit their mark, and they were supposedly <15 feet from the shooter.

[jkapp]

Mar 18, 2014 17:46:18 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So when would it not be justified to shoot someone on your porch?

At least here there is a presumption of reasonable fear if someone breaks into your house- porch doesn't count- you have to prove your case of self defense- that's why the cops tell you if you shoot someone better drag them into the house- and we have a SYG law- it is just not effed up like FL.

You do not get to take a life while in a safe place without being able to show why you had no other choice and that you were in imminent fear of great bodily harm or death.  I don't see it- but it is TX- could go either way. 

Anyone that thinks this is OK and has guns better look at the laws of your state- if some incident were to occur you might find yourself A) Locked up and B) Sued into bankruptcy if you are operating under assumptions.

Its not justified if they knock/ring the bell and leave when asked...

Calling 911 in a situation like this is pretty much useless...if they guy did break in, all the cops would be able to do is call the meat wagon for the owner's dead corpse (or an ambulance for the owner's beaten body if all the attacker wanted to do was assault someone).  Maybe the police would be lucky enough to arrest the attacker if they got there within ten minutes or so, but in a 20600 block of a large city, that ain't happenin'.

Chalk this incident up to another reason NOT to get drunk. How many drunken assholes have to die before people wake the fuck up?

[jkapp]

Mar 18, 2014 20:37:59 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

It's easy to say now - not so easy in the heat of the moment. There are consequences for being stupid. This one was lethal.

No - she didn't take the correct precautions - she could have dialed 911, retreated from the door several feet then stood her ground and waited until authorities arrived. She heard her doorknob rattling, and immediately fired through a closed door without even seeing an intruder - and before her home had been breached. She no doubt probably also didn't have proper firearms training.

It was reckless and careless action on her part - this is a senseless death due to her actions - it could very well have been prevented - if only she'd used her head instead of "jumping the gun".

Or if only the dead guy hadn't been a stupid drunk...why does he get a pass in all this?

[mollyanna58]

Mar 19, 2014 10:05:57 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Mar 18, 2014 20:37:59 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Or if only the dead guy hadn't been a stupid drunk...why does he get a pass in all this?

He got killed for being drunk - that's hardly a pass.

[Shooby]

Yes. He put himself in a vulnerable position for bad things to happen. And, they did. But for his actions that night, he would be alive. Yeah, it sucks to make a stupid mistake like that. We have all done things in life that could have turned out badly. That's how it goes. That isn't the fault of the homeowner.

[jkapp]

Mar 19, 2014 10:12:50 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Yes. He put himself in a vulnerable position for bad things to happen. And, they did. But for his actions that night, he would be alive. Yeah, it sucks to make a stupid mistake like that. We have all done things in life that could have turned out badly. That's how it goes. That isn't the fault of the homeowner.

Exactly...if he had been driving drunk, blown through a stop light, and been t-boned by a semi, would the semi driver have been at fault for killing the drunk driver?

[mollyanna58]

Mar 19, 2014 10:15:23 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Mar 19, 2014 10:12:50 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Exactly...if he had been driving drunk, blown through a stop light, and been t-boned by a semi, would the semi driver have been at fault for killing the drunk driver?

No, but the semi driver was already just driving down the road.  He did not deliberately hit the drunk.  The homeowner decided to shoot through an unopened door. 

[zibazinski]

Well, fortunately for her,she is old and female, and its Texas. Otherwise some people would like her to pay for her supposed "crime."

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I can't remember the exact time my firearm said, but you have SECONDS to react if someone comes at you.  Seconds.  Hell, 911 would not even pick up in that amount of time.

In TX, there is no duty to retreat in your own home, even though it is the prudent thing to do.  However, when you have SECONDS to make a decision, ultimately you are going to want to protect yourself first.  The prudent thing to do would be to call 911, if you can do so safely.  However, if there is someone breaking down your door, AND YOU ARE ALONE, you protect yourself first.  

Had this yahoo gotten through the door, and had a weapon, this woman would have had SECONDS to live had he intended to harm her.  911 would have been picking p her body instead.

[Shooby]

Again, the homeowner did SEEK out this trouble. He presented himself on her doorstep. She is not a criminal for reacting in a way most reasonable people would. As for calling 911. Yes, you should call 911 while you are grabbing your gun. But, some of you apparently live very close to help. There are many areas in the country where help is going to take a long time to arrive. You have the right to protect yourself. That is what she did. It isn't on HER to try to sort out what his intentions supposedly are or aren't.

[Shooby]

Did NOT Seek - correction.

Sorry my edit button isn't working for some reason.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

www.apnewsarchive.com/1988/Police-Neighbors-Ignored-Screams-Ex-Boyfriend-Charged-in-Slayings/id-f55f8989623b2cdba049968d79f417ba

This happened while I lived in San Antonio, and it scared the utter crap out of me. I remember hearing the 911 tape while those kids were being murdered and it was blood chilling.

He killed 4 kids with knives, no guns.

[Shooby]

Guns are great for women. They are the great equalizer. Women cannot fight hand to hand with fists or knives. But, with a gun you can stop an intruder. More women should arm themselves across the board.

[Shooby]

Actually, stories like this only reinforce how vulnerable we really are in our homes and that we only have seconds to protect ourselves because most like the police will not get there before they crash through the door.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I'd like to think I'd be calm/rational.  I'd barricade myself and the kids and calmly ask the guy what his intentions were and once I found out his drunk, nicely send him home and we'll all have a good laugh over it later.

But I can't know unless it happens.  My duty is is to my children, not to whoever it is that is trying to get into my house.  In a perfect world I'd talk to him thru the door and everything would be fine, but the world isn't Mayberry.

I'm not going to condemn the woman for shooting.  It is tragic and it is senseless but you don't know what you'd do in that situation.  It's very easy to sit and judge when you know all the facts in hindsight.   She DID NOT know that was her drunk neighbor mistaking her house for his.   She shouldn't have to wait to see if he gets in to determine if he's actually a predator or not, by then you could be dead. 

I'm not saying blow every person away who looks at you funny, but A LOT of people end up dead b/c they don't want to judge people or make snap decisions.

If I'm alone at night with my kids and someone is trying to enter my home I only have a few minutes/seconds to decide what I am going to do.  I may not make hte "right" decision and I'd have to live with that but it's better than ending up dead.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Mar 19, 2014 10:58:12 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Actually, stories like this only reinforce how vulnerable we really are in our homes and that we only have seconds to protect ourselves because most like the police will not get there before they crash through the door.

Until this happened, I never realized how vulnerable I really was living alone.  I lived about 20 miles from this incident and at the time, I was getting very early morning phone calls from someone who told me what he'd like to do with me....and it was NOT going out for coffee.

Right now, TD is out of town and I'm here by myself with a couple of animals.  Neither of them would be helpful if an intruder tried to break through either.  There is a gun in the bedroom, and another in the gun safe by the door and both I could access in less than 10 seconds from anywhere on this floor.

[justme]

1) If someone is at my door late at night and I'm not expecting anyone I'm going to grab a weapon before I grab a phone to call police that are several minutes away. Preferably grab a phone and a weapon at the same time but they're not always in the same place.

2) I personally couldn't tell you the difference between someone trying to use keys in a doorknob and using tools to try and pick the lock. And aren't a lot of the deadbolts re-keyable with one of those master keys? Yeah...sorry just because some random guy at the door doesn't have the keys to my house doesn't mean he doesn't have something metal he could use on the doorknob to get in.

[EVT1]

Mar 19, 2014 10:05:57 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Mar 18, 2014 20:37:59 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

No - she didn't take the correct precautions - she could have dialed 911, retreated from the door several feet then stood her ground and waited until authorities arrived. She heard her doorknob rattling, and immediately fired through a closed door without even seeing an intruder - and before her home had been breached. She no doubt probably also didn't have proper firearms training.

It was reckless and careless action on her part - this is a senseless death due to her actions - it could very well have been prevented - if only she'd used her head instead of "jumping the gun".

Or if only the dead guy hadn't been a stupid drunk...why does he get a pass in all this?

Cut the guy some slack- while he may have went overboard (it was St. Patrick's day and that kind of thing happens)- he was smart enough to take a taxi home and not drive- as opposed to the shitload of drunk people that night that did.

 

The only thing that matters as far as TX law goes is was he trying to break in or not.  If he was then it is an unfortunate situation, if he was not then we have a homeowner that over-reacted and broke the law.

Probably somewhere in the middle- he may have been pulling and shaking the door in frustration- who knows.  That's why we have juries.

I am not near as concerned about the amount of punishment that may or may not be warranted here- I am concerned about the message it sends to other people about when it is OK to pull the trigger.  In most states in this country she would have already been charged.

[Green Eyed Lady]

In what states do you think she would have already been charged?  I can say with 95% certainty that she wouldn't have already been charged in my state.  I'm not saying the case wouldn't be brought before the grand jury (or whatever you call it) for them to decide IF charges should be filed, but no way would she have been charged already.  This opinion is, of course, based on what the article said. 

Where I live, you don't get stupid drunk and frighten senior citizens half to death.  If you choose to do so, you get what you get and what you get isn't going to be sympathy, victim-blaming and a bunch of "you should haves".

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

In most states in this country she would have already been charged.

I believe that California is the only state that it is supposed to be the homeowner's duty to retreat.

Most of the other states the reading is that the homeowner can use force if they think it is necessary to protect them from bodily harm. As there is a large disparity of strength between a 64 year old woman and a 27 year old, drunk firefighter, then the use of force is justified by law.

This is from Self Defense Laws of all 50 states, by Vilos and Vilos.

[EVT1]

I didn't say she had a duty to retreat- I am saying she was never in a position where the 'castle doctrine' came into play.  There was no imminent threat of death or bodily harm- he was not in the house or looking at the door even in the process of trying to get in.

Don't believe me look at TX law:

(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessaryA) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was usedA) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; - See more at: codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/2/9/C/9.32#sthash.Og7wgN16.dpuf

I understand she was an older woman and alone- but she may be a timid mouse or an angry bat- we don't just take the word of people that kill other people and assume it was justified or not- all I have said is it needs more evidence to determine yet some of you have already let her off the hook.

You shoot someone in your home I am 100% OK with it, but this shooting people in the yard, porch, driveway without consequences is bullshit.  The GA man got away with murder- poor old confused man and this guy thinks he has the right to not wait on police, but go out and investigate then kill- knowing damn well he is not trained to deal with a 'mysterious stranger'.  Seems like in spite of violent crime dropping to the lowest levels, there are so many paranoid people ready to shoot, and so many others promoting this state of fear ...errr.....umm....NRA.....

Or simply- chances are someone at your door is not there to kill you- be vigilant and aware sure- but don't be a dumbass.

[Green Eyed Lady]

You missed bolding the part where the actor reasonably BELIEVES the deadly force is immediately necessary.  It is reasonable to believe this when some dude that you don't know is jigging your door knob at 9:30 at night in an attempt to get in (even if he was drunk and thought he was at his own house).    He was, in her belief, "unlawfully and with force entered or was ATTEMPTING TO ENTER unlawfully and with force". 

I'm on the jury and the story unfolds as written in the initial article?  She goes home to fight another day. 

You are right, chances are someone at your door is not there to kill you.  There is also a chance they are.  You want to take that chance?  Be my guest.  I don't intend to.  If that makes me a "dumbass", so be it. 

I do agree we need more evidence.  It could very well be that this 60-something lady who lives alone just had a very bad day, picked up a gun and waited for the first drunken idiot that crossed her path and started blasting away just for the hell of it.  Maybe at some point, his dog crapped in her yard and she was still upset about it.  Somehow, I doubt it, but I've been wrong before.

[Shooby]

How do any of you know what his intention was? Maybe he thought it was his house ir maybe while intoxicated he thought it might be a good idea to rape or rob her. She had no obligation to find out.

[EVT1]

No I didn't.  That's a jury call.  I can believe she was scared to death and could see my mom freaking out in a similar situation- as I said this boils down to what is reasonable- and it may very well be this was a reasonable response- and even if legally not- I could see a judge giving probation.  I am not out to lock this lady up- what possible good would it do?  I don't doubt for a minute she was doing just fine home alone until this guy showed up.

BUT- when we are talking the legality of shooting people that are not in your home- I have a real problem with setting any precedent that it is OK to do- as in taking the law into your own hands- like other cases.

And good point- how do we know she didn't recognize the guy and plug him- probably unlikely- but should we not do the best we can to figure out what happened?

She's going to walk unless there is some serious evidence that she had some bad intentions- and as I said I am more worried about the precedent it sets- because sure as shit if a cop shot a man through his front door he would have to explain himself, I would have to explain myself. 

Even more to the point- there should not exist in this country some free reign to shoot people on your property- it's fucking ridiculous.  I remember that one boy- went to the wrong house on Halloween and was shot to death on the porch.  He knocked but had a mask on......At some point an example has to be set because if we do nothing then more innocent people die.

[Shooby]

If we stop homeowners from being able to protect themselves then even more people will die.

[EVT1]

Who is stopping homeowners from protecting themselves?  How can you possibly read that into what I am saying?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

So what you are saying is that any attacker has to make it through the door and have his hands on her before there is enough 'proof' that he intends to harm her?

At that point, she is dead.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

The man hadn't even gained access - and she couldn't see him - she just fired away.

I have to wonder if she'd even had proper gun handling/training - I seriously doubt it - by the video/pictures of the door - she shot at random without aiming - and probably without even shouting a warning through the door that she was armed.

A weapon in the hands of someone not trained to handle & use it properly is a recipe for disaster.

From the links, the guy got the cab to drop him off in front of what he thought was his house - and he tried his key. Now he's dead at the hands of someone who was clearly not proficient on using a weapon. The bullet marks on the door show this to be the case. She just blasted away in a state of panic.

Now he's gone - she probably will get a light sentence (if any) due to her age, but she probably won't be able to be in possession of firearms anymore either - which is a good thing - for her or anyone else's safety.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Mar 19, 2014 21:17:49 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

No I didn't.  That's a jury call.  I can believe she was scared to death and could see my mom freaking out in a similar situation- as I said this boils down to what is reasonable- and it may very well be this was a reasonable response- and even if legally not- I could see a judge giving probation.  I am not out to lock this lady up- what possible good would it do?  I don't doubt for a minute she was doing just fine home alone until this guy showed up.

BUT- when we are talking the legality of shooting people that are not in your home- I have a real problem with setting any precedent that it is OK to do- as in taking the law into your own hands- like other cases.

And good point- how do we know she didn't recognize the guy and plug him- probably unlikely- but should we not do the best we can to figure out what happened?

She's going to walk unless there is some serious evidence that she had some bad intentions- and as I said I am more worried about the precedent it sets- because sure as shit if a cop shot a man through his front door he would have to explain himself, I would have to explain myself. 

Even more to the point- there should not exist in this country some free reign to shoot people on your property- it's fucking ridiculous.  I remember that one boy- went to the wrong house on Halloween and was shot to death on the porch.  He knocked but had a mask on......At some point an example has to be set because if we do nothing then more innocent people die.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't believe that not charging this lady will set any kind of precedent.  I do have faith in our legal system and these types of things will be considered on a case by case basis.  It's not going to be a case "didn't charge her - can't charge anybody".  It's not going to be a case of "she gets off - everybody gets to shoot anybody in their yards."  When this type of thing happens again, the facts of that particular case will be considered.

This guy wasn't "innocent", EVT.  He was stupid drunk and scared the living hell out of a senior citizen.  I'm not saying he deserved to die, but bad things happen when you act in an irresponsible manner.  Sometimes, the price is high.