One more senseless killing- justified?

[EVT1]

www.chron.com/neighborhood/kingwood/article/Porter-homeowner-fatally-shoots-neighbor-believed-5326991.php?cmpid=rrhoustontx

Real quick- 64yo woman shoots drunken neighbor to death through the door- then calls the cops.

Without SYG laws this is a criminal act- in TX who knows what a grand jury will do.  I believe the proper order is to grab your weapon, call the police and be prepared to shoot an intruder if they do in fact intrude.

     The shooting happened about 9:30 p.m. at the house in the 20600 block of Youpon in Porter, said Lt. Brady Fitzgerald, spokesman for the Montgomery County Sheriff's Office.

The man, Fitzgerald said, is identified as 27-year-old Samuel Keen, the woman's next door neighbor.

Keen was a firefighter with the Houston Fire Department for three years, according to HFD officials.

Fitzgerald said the woman, whose name has not been released, was home alone when she heard noises outside her front door. She peered outside and saw a man. She grabbed a revolver and called out to the man, telling him to get away from the house and that she had a gun.

But the man, Fitzgerald said, appeared to try to enter the home. That's when the woman fired two shots through the front door, hitting the man. Then she called 911.

Justified?  Need more evidence?  

[kittypuppymom]

The woman on the other side of that door did not know who he was. Have you ever been to Houston? When someone tells you that they have a gun, then you need to get the hell away. So what did you want her to do. Open them damn door and invite whoever was on the other side in. Another little fact about the Houston area there happens to be a few state prisons there. So justified Yes!

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

It is tragic but I'd say justified.  She saw the guy thru the window, told him to stop.  He did not stop and proceeded to try to open her door.  She's a 64 year old woman who was home alone.  Was she supposed to wait to see if he got in and then ask nicely what his intentions were?

If I was home alone with the kids I wouldn't wait till he got the door open either, I'd shoot too.

[EVT1]

So that's where we want to go?  It should be OK to shoot anyone on your property or at your door any time you feel threatened?

Also- do we automatically take her word for it that he was trying to break in or should some evidence of that be required? Maybe he was trying to put his key in the lock because he was that drunk.

I know in most states you are not allowed to use deadly force against someone that is merely in your yard, at your door, etc.

If they are trying to kick it in- or broke a window- that's a different story.  If I was on the grand jury I would expect to see some evidence of a break in or I would charge her.  Hard to claim self-defense when the person you killed was outside of a perfectly good door- probably dead-bolted.  Even worse- she cannot see what she is shooting at- might have killed some kid across the street.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

If you're asking if I'd shoot the Jehovah Witnesses who show up on my doorstep on Saturday mornings while tempting the answer would be no.   I have no reason to.

If it's one o-clock in the morning and I hear someone trying to get in my door that's different.  There isn't anybody who should be trying to get in my door at 1 am.  If I tell them to stop and they do not stop, I would have to decide if I want to shoot them or not.

I'm not going to wait for them to get in the door and ask nicely if they are just at the wrong address. 

I'm not going to blow away every person who looks at me cross-eyed but at the same time there are instances where I might not want to wait around to decide if the person is innocent or not.  It's not a decision I'd make lightly but it's one I'd be prepared to make to protect myself and my kids.

[Virgil Showlion]

So that's where we want to go? It should be OK to shoot anyone on your property or at your door any time you feel threatened?

If the particulars are the same as for this case, then the consensus is obvious: yes.

[kittypuppymom]

It is a law in Texas.

[Peace Of Mind]

Mar 18, 2014 14:25:11 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So that's where we want to go?  It should be OK to shoot anyone on your property or at your door any time you feel threatened?

Also- do we automatically take her word for it that he was trying to break in or should some evidence of that be required? Maybe he was trying to put his key in the lock because he was that drunk.

I know in most states you are not allowed to use deadly force against someone that is merely in your yard, at your door, etc.

If they are trying to kick it in- or broke a window- that's a different story.  If I was on the grand jury I would expect to see some evidence of a break in or I would charge her.  Hard to claim self-defense when the person you killed was outside of a perfectly good door- probably dead-bolted.  Even worse- she cannot see what she is shooting at- might have killed some kid across the street.

But how would she know that was his only intention or that he was drunk and at the wrong door?  What if she was wrong and he was a psycho killer who wanted to rob her or rape her and/or torture her? Who wants to find that out? I don't have a gun but if I did I may have reacted the same way under the same circumstances. That's probably why I don't own a gun. I just don't know. 

Here is what you listed from the article (I rarely click on links any more due to viruses in the past):

-Older woman was home alone when she heard noises outside her front door.

-She peered outside and saw a man.

-She grabbed a revolver and called out to the man, telling him to get away from the house and that she had a gun.

-But the man, Fitzgerald said, appeared to try to enter the home.

-That's when the woman fired two shots through the front door, hitting the man. Then she called 911.

I do think I'd personally fire off a warning shot first to see if that would have scared him off.  She said he appeared to try to enter the home.  Not being there myself who knows exactly what happened but if I thought somebody was trying to pick the lock to get into my home I'm not going to wait to find out what his intentions are if he gets in.

It's a sad situation but I do see why she did what she did.  Again - I'd like to think I would fire off a warning shot or maybe shoot down towards the legs/knees first but who knows what a person would really do under the same circumstances?  I also wonder what the neighborhood is like.  I'm thinking of what Sam (a regular poster here) describes her neighborhood to be like and if I lived in one like that I'd have fired my weapon too but I'm just not sure in what way.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I'm wondering if these two neighbors' homes were similar in design/exterior appearance - the man (if truly intoxicated), may have mistook her home for his - and was trying to continually get the key to work in the door.

The woman should have called 9-1-1 FIRST - before ever putting her finger on the trigger - she should have also hollered a warning through the door that she was armed and the police had been dispatched.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Many times, to call 911, you would have to turn your back to the door to find a phone.

Something like this happened to me last year, while I was still needing the walker. Dawg was working late and I was in the house by myself. I was using my walker to get myself to the bathroom and I noticed a shadow on the front door. Shadow was a rather large man who was just lurking on the doorstep.

My choices were to turn around and get my cell phone, which was sitting by my chair and turn my back to the door. Walk down the hall and sequester myself in the bedroom, but there was no phone there and I would still have to turn my back to the door. So I opened up the gun safe that is in the closet by the door and stood there with a loaded gun in my hand. Had he come through the door, he would have been met by the muzzle of the Glock and I was NOT going to miss.

I waited for what seemed like forever for the person to turn around and leave. I have no idea why they were there, or what they were up to but I did NOT imagine the shadow as the front door is mostly glass.

Other facts....had I called 911, it would be a good 20 minutes before anyone got here. We live at the end of a dead end street and there was NO reason for someone to be on the front porch at 10 pm, without ringing the doorbell or knocking. All houses look different, and there are only 4 houses at this end of the street, 2 are elderly couples and the other couple is always gone, so very unlikely a neighbor.

Unless you are ever in the situation, you have absolutely NO idea what you would do. I do know that I had a tremendous burst of adrenalin and while I was deadly calm while it was going on, I shook like a leaf when I went to put the gun back into the gun safe.

[Shooby]

Sounds justified to me.

[mmhmm]

I wouldn't shoot at someone on the other side of a locked door, no.  However, I don't condemn this woman for doing so.  I can understand her reasoning if she felt the guy was trying to open her door.  My thought processes tell me the door is locked.  Unless he has a key, he isn't getting in unless he batters down the door.  I'll hear any attempts to do that, and I'm the one armed with my eye on the door.  If he does have a key, or try to batter down the door, he's a dead man.

[EVT1]

So when would it not be justified to shoot someone on your porch?

At least here there is a presumption of reasonable fear if someone breaks into your house- porch doesn't count- you have to prove your case of self defense- that's why the cops tell you if you shoot someone better drag them into the house- and we have a SYG law- it is just not effed up like FL.

You do not get to take a life while in a safe place without being able to show why you had no other choice and that you were in imminent fear of great bodily harm or death.  I don't see it- but it is TX- could go either way. 

Anyone that thinks this is OK and has guns better look at the laws of your state- if some incident were to occur you might find yourself A) Locked up and B) Sued into bankruptcy if you are operating under assumptions.

[Peace Of Mind]

Mar 18, 2014 17:46:18 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So when would it not be justified to shoot someone on your porch?

At least here there is a presumption of reasonable fear if someone breaks into your house- porch doesn't count- you have to prove your case of self defense- that's why the cops tell you if you shoot someone better drag them into the house- and we have a SYG law- it is just not effed up like FL.

You do not get to take a life while in a safe place without being able to show why you had no other choice and that you were in imminent fear of great bodily harm or death.  I don't see it- but it is TX- could go either way. 

Anyone that thinks this is OK and has guns better look at the laws of your state- if some incident were to occur you might find yourself A) Locked up and B) Sued into bankruptcy if you are operating under assumptions.

I'm personally more concerned that I would be the one that is drunk and at the wrong door.    

[Shooby]

It appears he tried to enter the home.

So yeah that is reasonable use of lethal force in self defense.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

You do not get to take a life while in a safe place without being able to show why you had no other choice and that you were in imminent fear of great bodily harm or death. I don't see it- but it is TX- could go either way.

If someone is breaking into an obviously occupied house, there IS the suggestion of fear of great bodily harm. Do you really think that if you yell "stop, I have a gun" and the person continues to try to break in, that they are going to want to have tea with you?

I don't need to be raped or assaulted to be in fear of great bodily harm. A 27 year old man (firefighter, so imagine he's not a small guy) breaks into a house where an elderly woman lives alone, there is already a huge disparity of force and that is also taken into consideration.

[Tennesseer]

Mar 18, 2014 17:52:32 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Mar 18, 2014 17:46:18 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So when would it not be justified to shoot someone on your porch?

At least here there is a presumption of reasonable fear if someoninsi breaks into your house- porch doesn't count- you have to prove your case of self defense- that's why the cops tell you if you shoot someone better drag them into the house- and we have a SYG law- it is just not effed up like FL.

You do not get to take a life while in a safe place without being able to show why you had no other choice and that you were in imminent fear of great bodily harm or death.  I don't see it- but it is TX- could go either way. 

Anyone that thinks this is OK and has guns better look at the laws of your state- if some incident were to occur you might find yourself A) Locked up and B) Sued into bankruptcy if you are operating under assumptions.

I'm personally more concerned that I would be the one that is drunk and at the wrong door.    

Years ago I drove a co-worker home as he was too drunk to drive.  He directed me to where he lived.  He got out of the car and went to the back door to enter.  I waited for him to flash the front light so I was sure he was inside.  Instead, he came back to my car, drunk laughing.  He tried to enter the wrong house.

It happens.  He was lucky nothing happened.

[EVT1]

Mar 18, 2014 17:53:40 GMT -5 Shooby said:

It appears he tried to enter the home.

So yeah that is reasonable use of lethal force in self defense.

Appears to whom?  That's her side of it.  Same with giving him a warning- quite a self-serving statement-maybe true- but the victim can't tell their side.  Unless there is evidence such as a busted door jamb, shoe prints on the door, or some other sign that it was attempted breaking and entering then I maintain it was not justified.  Jiggling the handle does not warrant a death sentence in any civilized society. 

[Shooby]

She doesn't have to wait until he actually breaks the door down and comes in the house to try to sort out his intention.
What is clear is she was at her home not out looking for trouble with a gun.

[Shooby]

I will be outraged when there is something to be outraged about. Thus isn't one of them.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Years ago I drove a co-worker home as he was too drunk to drive. He directed me to where he lived. He got out of the car and went to the back door to enter. I waited for him to flash the front light so I was sure he was inside. Instead, he came back to my car, drunk laughing. He tried to enter the wrong house.

It happens. He was lucky nothing happened.

And that is pretty much what I said - this person was also intoxicated - and could very well (as I posted earlier), mistaken his neighbor's house for his own - shit happens. He was trying his key in the wrong lock - I'm pretty sure a person wishing do do harm wouldn't be fiddling with a key in the lock - they'd be kicking the door in or breaking in through a window.

[mmhmm]

That's how I see it, as well, SL.  If you're trying to kick in my door, or break a window to try to get in, I'll shoot.  Other than that, I'll be on the cell phone calling 911 and yelling loudly at you to get away from my door before I blow you into the next county.  I wouldn't shoot at someone on the other side of a well-locked door who's just jiggling the handle.  Not enough perception of danger for me to fire.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 18, 2014 13:19:49 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

www.chron.com/neighborhood/kingwood/article/Porter-homeowner-fatally-shoots-neighbor-believed-5326991.php?cmpid=rrhoustontx

Real quick- 64yo woman shoots drunken neighbor to death through the door- then calls the cops.

Without SYG laws this is a criminal act- in TX who knows what a grand jury will do.  I believe the proper order is to grab your weapon, call the police and be prepared to shoot an intruder if they do in fact intrude.

     The shooting happened about 9:30 p.m. at the house in the 20600 block of Youpon in Porter, said Lt. Brady Fitzgerald, spokesman for the Montgomery County Sheriff's Office.

The man, Fitzgerald said, is identified as 27-year-old Samuel Keen, the woman's next door neighbor.

Keen was a firefighter with the Houston Fire Department for three years, according to HFD officials.

Fitzgerald said the woman, whose name has not been released, was home alone when she heard noises outside her front door. She peered outside and saw a man. She grabbed a revolver and called out to the man, telling him to get away from the house and that she had a gun.

But the man, Fitzgerald said, appeared to try to enter the home. That's when the woman fired two shots through the front door, hitting the man. Then she called 911.

Justified?  Need more evidence?  

She yelled out for him to retreat and told him she had a gun. I don't know what I would have done in that situation but I have two kids so odds are I would have shot him, too. If I give you a warning and you still try to get into my house, I am standing my ground :-)

[Shooby]

Yeah and when I was a kid some drunk just stumbled through our front door one evening. My dad said "Get out of here you stupid drunk. This isn't your house". And he did.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Without SYG laws this is a criminal act- in TX who knows what a grand jury will do. I believe the proper order is to grab your weapon, call the police and be prepared to shoot an intruder if they do in fact intrude.

Precisely - she should have been calling 911 the moment she heard a noise & thought there was an intruder - THEN stood her ground - but she should not have pulled the trigger until her entryway had actually been breached - she didn't do that.

She shot the gun through a locked door - without knowing who was there - BEFORE calling 911 - what if it had been a relative - or someone warning her of a fire nearby? She was reckless with a weapon - plain & simple.

[mmhmm]

My mother found one of the male neighbors in her kitchen one morning.  He was just as mystified as she was as to why he was there.  He was plowed, to say the least, but he just left.

[Virgil Showlion]

It does raise a valid point: How completely bombed would a person have to be to not register a yelling, gun-wielding senior woman through the screen door that won't open?

No. Late at night. Little old lady home alone. Guy drunk out of his mind repeatedly trying to get into the residence, ignoring all warnings. His number was up.

[Shooby]

She wasnt reckless. She told him to retreat. She didn't look for him he came to her. He was at the door trying to get in.

[Green Eyed Lady]

You don't get a pass because you are drunk.  Getting drunk is a choice - not an excuse.  A woman alone can't be expected to ask some dude jiggling her door knob to take a breathalyzer test.   It's awful this happened, but it's nobody's fault but the dude who got drunk and started jiggling some poor woman's door knob at 9:30 at night.  I would have shot him, too.  Sure.  I would have called 911 while I was taking aim, but there is no way they would get there in time if whomever decided to break my door down.

I don't understand the mind set of people expecting the bad guy to have a knife at my throat and his penis in his hand before I can defend myself.  Screw that.  Don't get drunk and mess with people.  It's an ugly world out there and getting uglier.  Making stupid decisions is getting to be downright deadly.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 18, 2014 19:59:21 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

You don't get a pass because you are drunk.  Getting drunk is a choice - not an excuse.  A woman alone can't be expected to ask some dude jiggling her door knob to take a breathalyzer test.   It's awful this happened, but it's nobody's fault but the dude who got drunk and started jiggling some poor woman's door knob at 9:30 at night.  I would have shot him, too.  Sure.  I would have called 911 while I was taking aim, but there is no way they would get there in time if whomever decided to break my door down.

I don't understand the mind set of people expecting the bad guy to have a knife at my throat and his penis in his hand before I can defend myself.  Screw that.  Don't get drunk and mess with people.  It's an ugly world out there and getting uglier.  Making stupid decisions is getting to be downright deadly.

I agree completely. I will do what I can to not be the victim that read about each day in the paper. If someone is trying to get into my house and won't retreat when I yell that I have a gun, I am going to be in fear for my life and that if my children.

It is very easy to sit and judge this women because now we know this was just some drunken moron. It would be a different story if he was found to be carrying duct tape, rope and a knife.