One more senseless killing- justified?

[mmhmm]

Mar 18, 2014 19:51:39 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It does raise a valid point: How completely bombed would a person have to be to not register a yelling, gun-wielding senior woman through the screen door that won't open?

No. Late at night. Little old lady home alone. Guy drunk out of his mind repeatedly trying to get into the residence, ignoring all warnings. His number was up.

What screen door?  I understood this to be a solid door, not a screen door.  I also read the woman told him to go away.  I read nothing about multiple warnings.  No way to know if he even heard her through the door; although, he probably did but being drunk didn't register it.  It was 9:30pm.  That's not the middle of the night, either.

As I said, I can understand what happened, but it didn't need to happen.  

[swamp]

Mar 18, 2014 19:51:39 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It does raise a valid point: How completely bombed would a person have to be to not register a yelling, gun-wielding senior woman through the screen door that won't open?

Pretty bombed. 

I live out in the middle of nowhere. A 911 call might get me a response in 15 minutes if there is a car in the area. 

Im shooting. 

[Shooby]

There are lots if cases with very questionable self defense. This isn't one of them.

[Miss Tequila]

Mar 18, 2014 20:07:03 GMT -5 swamp said:

Mar 18, 2014 19:51:39 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It does raise a valid point: How completely bombed would a person have to be to not register a yelling, gun-wielding senior woman through the screen door that won't open?

Pretty bombed. 

I live out in the middle of nowhere. A 911 call might get me a response in 15 minutes if there is a car in the area. 

Im shooting. 

I remember when we built out old house way out in the mountains. My husband wound up knowing the guy that installed our security system. He actually said "state police are 30 minutes away. You need a fun otherwise this security season will do nothing more than alert the police of a body retrieval". Scared the hell out of me! Luckily we have guns

[swamp]

I used to have a large scary looking dog as a security system.  I think that's better than a gun. It hears things before I do. 

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Mar 18, 2014 19:51:39 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It does raise a valid point: How completely bombed would a person have to be to not register a yelling, gun-wielding senior woman through the screen door that won't open?

No. Late at night. Little old lady home alone. Guy drunk out of his mind repeatedly trying to get into the residence, ignoring all warnings. His number was up.

I didn't read where it was a screened-door. And how loud do we know this "little old lady" was speaking (if at all she did give a warning) - it's her word against his - and he can't speak for himself and give his side now, because he's dead.

For all we know, she fired out of panic, before even uttering a word. He's not here to speak for himself now that she's blown him away.

Something stinks here - as mmhmm and Tenn have stated, it's not the first time an intoxicated person has been "confused of their surroundings".

[Green Eyed Lady]

I don't think anybody is saying it's the first time an intoxicated person has been confused.  I think they are saying being drunk doesn't give him a pass to do anything he wants.  And, as Miss T pointed out, how was she to know whether he was some confused drunk or a home invader?  It's easy to say now - not so easy in the heat of the moment.  There are consequences for being stupid.  This one was lethal.

[Shooby]

The reckless one was him for getting drunk. Yeah it is sad that he loses his life over a stupid life moment. But it is what is. He screwed up and paid the price. It happens.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

It's easy to say now - not so easy in the heat of the moment. There are consequences for being stupid. This one was lethal.

No - she didn't take the correct precautions - she could have dialed 911, retreated from the door several feet then stood her ground and waited until authorities arrived. She heard her doorknob rattling, and immediately fired through a closed door without even seeing an intruder - and before her home had been breached. She no doubt probably also didn't have proper firearms training.

It was reckless and careless action on her part - this is a senseless death due to her actions - it could very well have been prevented - if only she'd used her head instead of "jumping the gun".

[mmhmm]

As I said,  I can see how this situation came to be.  In all probability, based on the information we have, nobody was really guilty of anything more than gross stupidity secondary to drunkeness on his part and over-reaction secondary to fear on her part.   My problems is the embellishments given to the story that aren't anywhere in any of the reported data.  There's nothing about a "screen door".  There's a picture of a solid door with glass inserts on each side.  It was 9:30 at night, so I'd assume that door was locked which is why he didn't just stroll right on in.  She said she warned him to go away and that she had a gun but he continued to try to enter.  We don't know what he did to try to enter.  Was he rattling the doorknob or kicking the door?  We don't know; nor, do we know there were multiple warnings.  I get my tail in a knot when people embellish to try to make something fit the scenario in their head instead of going with the facts we've got.

Whatever happened, it will go to the grand jury.  Hopefully, they'll have more information than we have.  It's a tragedy.  I feel for her, and I feel for his family.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Mar 18, 2014 20:37:59 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

It's easy to say now - not so easy in the heat of the moment. There are consequences for being stupid. This one was lethal.

No - she didn't take the correct precautions - she could have dialed 911, retreated from the door several feet then stood her ground and waited until authorities arrived. She heard her doorknob rattling, and immediately fired through a closed door without even seeing an intruder - and before her home had been breached. She no doubt probably also didn't have proper firearms training.

It was reckless and careless action on her part - this is a senseless death due to her actions - it could very well have been prevented - if only she'd used her head instead of "jumping the gun".

She most certainly did take the correct precautions.  She armed herself for purposes of self-defense.   

We don't know, at least from the article, that she didn't retreat from the door several feet.  In addition, the article states she DID see somebody through the window, ordered them to retreat (why should she have to retreat - it's her damn house) and informed him she had a gun.  The article also doesn't say one word about whether she did or did not have proper firearms training. 

It was reckless and careless action on HIS part - a senseless death due to his own actions.  It could have very well been prevented - if only he hadn't decided to get so shit-faced that he didn't know his own house.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

If she was in fear, she should have dialed 911 before even reaching for her weapon - which obviously was just "laying around" if she accessed it that quickly. It wasn't locked-up or secured in a safe place.

She heard a noise in the early evening and fired. We don't know how loudly she gave her warning - if in fact she did give one.

Like I said, at the moment it's her word against his - and he's in no position to speak for himself or explain his actions - since he's dead.

She's a senior citizen - did you even think she might have acted in panic? I still doubt she had proper firearms training - she just approached the door and fired.

No, she didn't retreat before firing, because the bullet(s) would have had to travel farther to the door and then exit on the other side, ultimately hitting the victim - and also probably would not have been fatal. The shots were more than likely at close range with only the door between the assailant and the victim.

DH and I were in a gun club & had weapons of varying calibers - I'm well aware of impact and distance from doing target shooting with rifles & pistols.

.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 18, 2014 20:18:36 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Mar 18, 2014 19:51:39 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It does raise a valid point: How completely bombed would a person have to be to not register a yelling, gun-wielding senior woman through the screen door that won't open?

No. Late at night. Little old lady home alone. Guy drunk out of his mind repeatedly trying to get into the residence, ignoring all warnings. His number was up.

I didn't read where it was a screened-door. And how loud do we know this "little old lady" was speaking (if at all she did give a warning) - it's her word against his - and he can't speak for himself and give his side now, because he's dead.

For all we know, she fired out of panic, before even uttering a word. He's not here to speak for himself now that she's blown him away.

Something stinks here - as mmhmm and Tenn have stated, it's not the first time an intoxicated person has been "confused of their surroundings".

I assumed a screen door based on the fact that she saw him and shot him through the door. It would appear that wasn't the case.

As for whether she warned him before shooting at him, I'm not disputing the fact that all we have is her word. We do know that he'd been drinking so heavily that he had to take a taxi home and then tried to gain entry to the wrong house. It isn't a stretch to think he might have been too drunk to heed any warnings to leave.

As for "multiple warnings", this more detailed report states that she warned him at least twice.

[Virgil Showlion]

Mar 18, 2014 21:13:49 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

If she was in fear, she should have dialed 911 before even reaching for her weapon - which obviously was just "laying around" if she accessed it that quickly. It wasn't locked-up or secured in a safe place.

She heard a noise in the early evening and fired. We don't know how loudly she gave her warning - if in fact she did give one.

Like I said, at the moment it's her word against his - and he's in no position to speak for himself or explain his actions - since he's dead.

She's a senior citizen - did you even think she might have acted in panic? I still doubt she had proper firearms training - she just approached the door and fired.

No, she didn't retreat before firing, because the bullet(s) would have had to travel farther to the door and then exit on the other side, ultimately hitting the victim - and also probably would not have been fatal. The shots were more than likely at close range with only the door between the assailant and the victim.

DH and I were in a gun club & had weapons of varying calibers - I'm well aware of impact and distance from doing target shooting with rifles & pistols.

.

The question is: would you indict her based on your hunch that she just blind-fired with no warning?

There's not going to be any hard evidence either supporting or refuting her claim that she warned him. We do know for a fact that there was no bad blood between them, that her neighbours testified she was a stable person, and that this fellow was intoxicated.

If you were on the grand jury, would you indict her based on that? I wouldn't. Not unless the police turned up some kind of evidence to contradict her version of events. There's no way on Earth a jury would convict her if the case went to trial.

No, she didn't retreat before firing, because the bullet(s) would have had to travel farther to the door and then exit on the other side, ultimately hitting the victim - and also probably would not have been fatal. The shots were more than likely at close range with only the door between the assailant and the victim.

We don't even know the caliber of the weapon. If it was a .35, or (heaven forbid in Texas) a .45, a bullet shot through a door is going to blow a mighty big hole through you.

[Green Eyed Lady]

She apparently lives alone, SL.  My weapon isn't locked up either - unless I have children visiting.  Why in the hell would I make it hard to get to?  That doesn't even make any sense.  It's easily reachable in an emergency.

Of course I think she may have acted in a panic.  She was probably terrified witless.  Again...that was HIS fault.

I can guarantee you that you don't have to be standing immediately on the other side of the door to fire through that door and into a person standing outside of it.  I can do that from clear across the room or probably even from my backyard.  It depends on the weapon and the ammo (and also what the door is made of, of course). 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

If she was in fear, she should have dialed 911 before even reaching for her weapon - which obviously was just "laying around" if she accessed it that quickly. It wasn't locked-up or secured in a safe place.

How do you know this? I'm sitting in the LR and I can access my gun in less than 10 seconds from the gun safe in the closet. If someone was bursting through the door, you can be damn sure that I would reach for my weapon first before the phone, as that's in the kitchen.

[EVT1]

So more evidence is needed I think.

Whether she warned him or not doesn't matter really- what matters- or at least should- is whether there was evidence of an attempt to break in.  If the door is unmarked and undamaged she has some explaining to do.

What if it was 3AM and someone was banging on the door yelling?  Could have been the same guy years down the road alerting her that her house was on fire......

This shoot first mentality really bothers me.  It is supposed to be a last resort- and it is pretty obvious a lot of people in this country do not agree. 

I will say this, whether or not she was justified as the evidence will bear out, on its face she is a hell of a lot more justified than the man that shot the old confused man in his yard, or that other creep that stalked the teenager.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I actually agree with you, EVT, that deadly force should be a last resort.  I have two other lines of defense I'd use before I'd have to resort to shooting someone.  First comes my locks and deadbolts.  A person would have to use a battering ram to get into one of my doors (a window is a different story).  Secondly, I have a ferocious dog who would do his level best to tear an intruder to ribbons.  Failing both of those, I am prepared to defend myself.  I probably wouldn't have shot through the door but I can't say that for sure.  It didn't happen to me.  If he got past it?  He's a dead man one way or the other.  However, I'm not a 60-some year old lady living completely alone.  While I wouldn't have probably done it exactly the way she did, I'm sure not going to stand in judgment of her.  Mmhmm is right.   Some people with all the information will decide if she deserves punishment.  It's a sad situation all around.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

What if it was 3AM and someone was banging on the door yelling? Could have been the same guy years down the road alerting her that her house was on fire......

This shoot first mentality really bothers me. It is supposed to be a last resort- and it is pretty obvious a lot of people in this country do not agree

Precisely - and I said just about as much - if indeed he was intoxicated, his key would never have worked in her door to begin with - he wasn't kicking-in, or banging on the door - he was jiggling his key in the lock - we don't know that she yelled, or if she was 2" from the door, or 20' when she fired her weapon. She reacted first, without taking proper precautions. This was supposedly a patio entrance if the link is providing accurate information - she probably could have safely exited the home from another doorway to get away without resorting to this.

And a (probably) innocent man would not be lying dead on her doorstep.

[EVT1]

abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=9470222

Nice video of the door- pretty substantial door with a deadbolt- small windows on the side- doubt it could be kicked in easily.

Houses do not look alike. 

Looks to me she would have been plenty safe to call the police and wait and see- door doesn't look damaged other than bullet holes.

Going to be a tough one for the grand jury- but it is TX and have no problems letting people walk for outright murder sometimes- although this would not be such a case.

Also-holes in the door are right around stomach and head levels to the side right where someone holding the handle would be standing. I'd bet she was right there next to the door when she shot.

[whoisjohngalt]

Mar 18, 2014 14:25:11 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So that's where we want to go?  It should be OK to shoot anyone on your property or at your door any time you feel threatened?

Also- do we automatically take her word for it that he was trying to break in or should some evidence of that be required? Maybe he was trying to put his key in the lock because he was that drunk.

I know in most states you are not allowed to use deadly force against someone that is merely in your yard, at your door, etc.

If they are trying to kick it in- or broke a window- that's a different story.  If I was on the grand jury I would expect to see some evidence of a break in or I would charge her.  Hard to claim self-defense when the person you killed was outside of a perfectly good door- probably dead-bolted.  Even worse- she cannot see what she is shooting at- might have killed some kid across the street.

If you are on my property and I didn't expect you coming, you will have exactly 30 seconds to tell me why you are there.  After that, all bets are off.

I am 5'1 and not very fit and not very strong.  If I "give you a chance" to get too close and you are not a good guy, I have a very good chance to be raped or killed or both. 

I don't want to take that chance.  Would you want your mother/daughter/sister to take that chance?


BTW, I live in a small town. Our police department is about 7 min away from my house (if I am driving) and probably 4-5 min if they are driving.  A LOT can happen in that 5 minutes.  Again, I would rather not take that chance.

[Shooby]

This isnt Trayvo Martin. And even the story of the man shooting the teen in hus daughters bed. This case seems pretty cut and dry.

[Virgil Showlion]

One thing I do tend to point out to people in discussions like this is not to take a rational state of mind for granted.

An untrained person suddenly confronted with a dangerous situation is subject to an innate "fight or flight" response. At best, he's hit with a massive rush of stress hormones, a mild sense of panic, and a "whammy" response from his brain's sympathetic nervous system. At worst, his heart rate skyrockets, his reasoning and short term memory centers shut down, and he's left totally at the mercy of his instincts.

Even seasoned police officers often succumb to the F-o-F response during suspect shootings, perceiving time in slow motion and losing the ability to remember much of the engagement.

There are of course different degrees of panic, but to suggest "Oh, I would issue a verbal warning, then proceed to obtain my gun, then take up a position behind my couch and issue a second warning, then wait until I saw the door breached, then issue a third and final warning, then fire if..." is more than slightly optimistic. It's possible that you'd have such presence of mind, but it's equally possible that you'll be in a panicked state, blitzed out of your mind on stress hormones, with all the cognitive faculties of a 6-year-old. There's a reason people lose control of all their bodily functions while under attack, and it's not because they rationally think to themselves at some point "Ah, step seven in my self-defense contingency plan: soil myself."

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

EVT, after viewing your link it appears that the bullet exit points on the door were not aimed, but shot "helter-skelter" (I can't think of a better term than that - and it seems fitting).

They appear not to be aimed, but made by someone just blasting away in a fit of panic, without taking time to assess their situation and be prepared for a "possible" invasion.

The bullet marks on the door aren't centered where a person's chest would be - they're scattered - some near the door frame, and seem to be shot randomly by someone shooting first, and not even taking the time to aim their weapon before firing the trigger.

[Virgil Showlion]

So she was panicked out of her mind, and this somehow makes you less sympathetic toward her?

What is that you want? Do you want her to rot in jail? Whipped and beheaded maybe? Hang her body out on the ramparts to teach everyone a lesson on what happens to panicked ladies who shoot at drunks trying to get through their front doors at 9:30 PM?

Perhaps Texas should pass laws banning old ladies from owning guns? Or how about Texas passes a law requiring all citizens to wait for an assailant to come through the front door before shooting at them?

What do you want? How do you plan on "fixing" this situation?

You're telling us again and again that this lady is guilty as sin, so tell us what a just punishment is and how we prevent similar shootings in future.

[EVT1]

? I only saw the two- one low, one high but in the same line.  But- this is a more evidence situation.

The law says she can't just shoot through a door- he would have to have been forcing it- and that's what the grand jury gets to figure out- probably no bill it.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

What is that you want? Do you want her to rot in jail? Whipped and beheaded maybe? Hang her body out on the ramparts to teach everyone a lesson on what happens to panicked ladies who shoot at drunks trying to get through their front doors at 9:30 PM?

Did I (or anyone else) say that we want her to "rot in jail?"? No.

The "alleged" intruder had not entered/breached her premises - the door was still secured at the time of the shooting - by EVT's link the bullet marks on the door clearly show she shot the weapon without aiming - she shot without assessing the situation and fired away - I've had to call 911 on a couple of incidents in the past - I didn't grab my weapon and fire first - I reacted responsibly and took precautions - this lady did not - she just fired away.

Due to her age, and (supposed) panic, she most likely will get off lightly - but she clearly didn't handle this in the most rational way.

[Shooby]

So she shot the weapon without aiming but somehow shot twice and managed to hit him twice?
This is a sad event. But there is no fault here.

[Shooby]

Getting outraged over legitimate self defense does nothing to help the cause of weeding out so-called self defense gone awry. There definitely are cases where that is the case. I just dont' think this is one of them.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Exactly, Shooby.  It's a case-by-case thing.  I don't get the controversy here at all.  Maybe it's becaue there are a lot of people who, down deep inside, think "That could have been me the last time I got drunk."  I dunno.  I feel so bad for this poor woman.  Of course, I feel for the drunk guy's wife and family, too.  What a horrible thing for everyone.  It makes me think of my mom (although Mom is older than this woman) and what would go through her head if it seemed like someone was trying to break into her home.  She'd be scared witless.  It makes me very angry that anyone would put someone like my mom through that - drunk or not.