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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 7:52:27 GMT -5
But I will be involved with him for the next 14 years no matter what I want. I just don't see where assuming he's an evil enemy out to get me all the time is going to do anything but drive me batshit crazy in no time. I don't think he's an evil enemy out to get you. But I do think he's more inclined to be selfish and to figure out how to get what he wants than you are. And I'm not sure your defenses against him are more than straw. Because even if he's not an evil bastard, his thinking is not the same as yours and you need to protect yourself - body, heart, mind and soul. Because that will make it easier to protect your kids from him. Because they, esp. the younger one, have NO defenses against him right now except you. This I can agree with. He doesn't often think of how his actions affect others or put a lot of weight on that.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 25, 2014 7:54:43 GMT -5
I don't think he's an evil enemy out to get you. But I do think he's more inclined to be selfish and to figure out how to get what he wants than you are. And I'm not sure your defenses against him are more than straw. Because even if he's not an evil bastard, his thinking is not the same as yours and you need to protect yourself - body, heart, mind and soul. Because that will make it easier to protect your kids from him. Because they, esp. the younger one, have NO defenses against him right now except you. This I can agree with. He doesn't often think of how his actions affect others or put a lot of weight on that. Which is why you need to be able to shelter/protect the boys from him. And how are the knees this morning?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 7:58:13 GMT -5
Oh. I'm just going by what she posts. She says she doesn't want to be involved with him but I'm thinking not really. But I will be involved with him for the next 14 years no matter what I want. I just don't see where assuming he's an evil enemy out to get me all the time is going to do anything but drive me batshit crazy in no time. Protecting yourself and your kids from any future "episodes" is not assuming he's evil. It's preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 8:00:53 GMT -5
Well, he is already stressing you out. You are taking responsibili for all his issues and problems as well as your own. The NICE thing about being divorced is that these/his problems are not yours unless you want them to be. But if you want them to be, that's your call as well. He is only going to be involved in your life as much as you want him to be. If you really got divorced so he could qualify for help then that's another story. I'm not sure if I would have got divorced if it wasn't for the medical assistance thing and the threats of liens on the property for medical bills. I think I would have hung on even if it was the wrong thing to do because the thought of being divorced twice was just unbearable, but I'll admit, I did feel relief when it happened.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 8:06:00 GMT -5
This I can agree with. He doesn't often think of how his actions affect others or put a lot of weight on that. Which is why you need to be able to shelter/protect the boys from him. And how are the knees this morning? Better! Not great, but I think I can do stairs today. Last night I made the mistake of getting on my hands and knees to clean cat puke up off the living room carpet and was having trouble getting back up. Younger son was calling for me and I said I couldn't get up, so he said "Just crawl over here and get me something to eat"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 8:11:46 GMT -5
MPL - been there, done that....I know everyone here is 'continue to kick him when he's down' and looking in from the outside it's easy to say that, but I know what it's like to want to at least be civil to your child's father. Good luck! The only time it is legitimate to kick a man when he is down, is when he's grabbed on to your ankle in attempt to take you with him... Personally, I don't think a kick is necessary here... But actively recognizing the potential tentacles and working proactively to avoid any situation which has the potential to ensnare could save one from getting into a situation where kicking like hell is the only recourse left....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 8:16:34 GMT -5
I can see why he seems to think you are still married, the divorce just being for the MA.
You can't feel sorry for him at this point. Every focus should be on you and the kids. Adults make their own choices.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 25, 2014 8:23:53 GMT -5
I just don't see where assuming he's an evil enemy out to get me all the time is going to do anything but drive me batshit crazy in no time
You don't need to think he's an evil enemy. You just need to recognize that you're not dealing with a routine divorce here. You're dealing with mental illness which is a totally different kettle of fish.
I get it's really hard to change your mindset and think "unpleasant" things about your ex but you gotta deal with reality. You're boundaries with your ex and his relationship with his son will have to be totally different than if you were dealing with say, ODS's father b/c ODS's father is sane where as your current ex-husband is not.
In time if he does get his act together you can work with a social worker/therapist to start re-drawing boundaries to reflect that things have changed. But until he actually proves to YOU that he's a fully functioning adult again you need to do what it takes to protect yourself and your son from his actions.
He'll take you down with him if given the chance. It may not be a deliberate "evil" type thing but when you get sucked into their vortex it's very hard to get out of it and usually doesn't end well. Wanting to keep yourself safe/sane and your son safe is not being a bitch or considering him to be evil. It's facing reality.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 8:27:57 GMT -5
Years ago on the old YM, when my first ex announced out of the blue that he was seeing a woman in China on his business trips and wanted out of the marriage, everyone flipped out too. They said he was going to abduct our son and take him to China, and when I decided to delay the divorce to stay on his health insurance and go back to school everyone flipped that I was just giving him time to plot and I was going to lose everything. Well, he paid my way through school, let me have full custody and the farm and in 7 years has never been late for a child support payment. We have no parenting time arrangement, we just go with the flow from day to day and it works great. Four years ago he brought his girlfriend from China here and married her and now she babysits both my kids for free. I don't even bother to ask her, I just ask my ex if I can drop the kids off. She stays home and just sits in front of the tv all day, so might as well. I get that this is way different though. The mental health issues and just general poor judgement make this incredibly difficult.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 25, 2014 8:37:17 GMT -5
If he's been diganosed it wouldn't hurt to find either a local or online support group for whatever it is. That way you'd feel less alone and also recieve some advice from people who have BTDT on how to proceed from here.
It isn't fun to think "bad" things about your husband/ex but when they have serious problems you have to think things thru. I get crap on here all the time b/c I'm married to a former addict and as such our marriage is structured around that. I have been told that I do not love him b/c I put myself and our kids first.
DH's problems are his own, I cannot own him for him. That's a dangerous road that leads to co-dependence and doesn't do either one of us any good and our kids will pay the price. It doesn't mean I wouldn't try to get him to rehab should God forbid he relapse again, but the onus of getting better would be on him.
He had to do A LOT before I'd fully take him back. He had to prove to me that he regretted what he did and it would not happen again.
Same things need to happen here. Your ex needs to prove to YOU whatever it is you need for you to feel comfortable with him having more visitation with his son. Doesn't matter what he says, doesn't matter what the halfway house says, doesn't matter what the probation officer says. YOU get to determine what is "reasonable" and it doesn't make you a bad person to have boundaries tighter than Fort Knox right now. He's got a long way to go before he gets what he wants, if ever.
Don't let him suck you back into a co-dependent relationship with him. He needs to own his problems and own cleaning up the mess he left behind. You don't owe him anything. Your priority is making sure your son doesn't get sucked up into the mess right along with his father.
ETA: My DH also knows that me taking him back was a conditional one time deal. If he breaks "the rules" again he's out hte door faster than his head can spin. Your ex will need to know that if he so much as puts a toe out of line "reasonable vistation" is going to become a lot narrower in definition. You can't let him bend the rules/test the boundaries even for a second. You need to make sure you stay strong.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 25, 2014 8:38:17 GMT -5
No one is saying kick him when he's down. Least of all me. But he is affecting you and your health and he will continue to do so if you let him. I get why you are going to his family's this weekend. Sigh. Because you told them that the divorce was so he could get help not because you couldn't handle being married to crazy anymore. Then you'd be the bad guy. I also get not wanting to be divorced twice. I really do. This is why I stayed single for so many years, because all my friends who got remarried were miserable because all that was out there was crazy or losers or users. Or all three!! My mom made a horrible second marriage. I don't think she was happy one day in her life and it colored her world badly. But by golly, she was MARRIED and that's what counted. Get the motor home off your land and out of your name. Get his stuff out of your house and into it. Get to a lawyer and get things settled before its too late and you can't call the shots anymore just field them. Who suffers besides you? Your child. Don't think he is clueless because he is young. The older one can escape if things get too bad but the young one can't.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 8:44:42 GMT -5
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 25, 2014 8:48:44 GMT -5
I should also add if he's actually serious that he's getting his act together and wants to be a good father he should be willing to jump thru whatever hoops you put in front of him. He should have the self awarness that he made a huge mess of things and needs to earn back your trust/respect.
His current behavior indicates he's no where close to that level of self awareness. Which means you enforce your boundaries and add more if need be till he gets it. He only gets them loosened once he proves to YOU that he's earned the right to have them loosened up.
Actions speak louder than words. Look at what he is DOING, not what he (or anyone else) is SAYING. Until his actions match his words he doesn't get what he wants from you. That doesn't make you an evil person. You're holding him accountable and that's exactly what you should do for your sake and your son's.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 25, 2014 8:52:17 GMT -5
MPL - been there, done that....I know everyone here is 'continue to kick him when he's down' and looking in from the outside it's easy to say that, but I know what it's like to want to at least be civil to your child's father. Good luck! Not sure who "everyone" is supposed to be, but there's nothing in my posts that encourage any sort of kicking the X or even treating him badly. In fact, there were even specific suggestions of civil, cooperative language that could be used in the exchange.
Divorcing from an X that is physically abusive and has mental issues is much different than divorcing from an X that is otherwise a decent guy but can't keep his pants zipped. What works with the decent wanderer could put you in a world of hurt with the abusive, ill guy.
MPL, you've sent some mixed signals in your posts, so it's understandable that the X may not understand the situation fully. It will be up to you to decide what type of relationship you want, but to the X, your signals are indicating that you still will be partners in everything except the piece of paper - that he can call you any time with any request and there's a good chance you'll acquiesce. If you're OK with continuing in that vein going forward, keep doing what you're doing. If you're not OK with a continued close relationship, then it will be up to you to set up boundaries because the mentally ill X is incapable and also doesn't want to.
If you want boundaries (and most of us responded thinking from certain parts of your posts that you do), then you do need to start setting those boundaries up now. Being easy going and counting on this X to do the right thing like your prior good-hearted wanderer did is probably not going to work out for you in this case. You're not going to end up with a friendly, healthy relationship and free babysitting thrown in for good measure. And boundaries are not kicking him when he's down. Doing the right thing to separate your lives and set up a way to move forward is reasonable, not evil.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 25, 2014 9:03:46 GMT -5
BTW, your actions are exactly how sane, decent people should act. You're a reasonable, good person and you're trying to deal with him like he's a reasonable, good person. Unfortunately, it appears that he is not capable of that right now and maybe not ever.
That's the tough thing about dealing with someone that has mental illness, it's almost like having another child, not a partner. You can't assume that they'll be a partner and act in good faith like a partner would. You need to be thinking 50 steps ahead and be assuming that you are the one who is responsible for setting things up in a way that they cannot possibly be run off into the ditch.
When we talk about things like the motorhome, you're assuming he'll be rational and reasonable, or the rehab program will prevent him from doing something stupid or that you can call the police for help. We're saying that you need to be the one that looks for potential pitfalls like that and takes steps to prevent them from happening before they do. Just like you wouldn't send your 3 year old to school with a backpack filled with knives and assume school will keep him safe or you can call 911 to get him stitched up if he gets cut... you need to foresee issues like the motorhome and not assume your mentally ill, abusive X who thinks you got divorced only on paper so he could get insurance and who has no funds to pay for repairs or lot storage will intuitively know that it won't be OK to just live where it's easy and free.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 9:08:51 GMT -5
"As for feeling sorry for him, yeah, I do kind of. He's lost EVERYTHING. He doesn't even have most of his clothes anymore because he was living in the state forest when he was arrested and I'm sure they're all gone now. He doesn't have property to garnish and I wouldn't want them taking money from his IRA even if that was legal. How much all of this was his fault and how much was out of his control? I don't know. But, if he'd been severely injured in a car accident and I just said "tough, pay up", you'd all think I was evil. "
It is not your fault he lost everything. From what i remember you had to push/help him to get that job, or maybe tge IRA, etc. you do not need to feel sorry for him. Feel sorry for yourself and your kids, i dont say this in a mean way. Who will take care of your son if you couldnt work? I was feeling sorry for my ex thinking he would lose his house if i wasnt helping. But guess what 1.5 years later he still has it, caught up fully on house payments! It may have been partially medical problems but your duty is to yourself and most importantly to your kids. Save yourself and your kid first then you can worry about him and his future. It is not like you are doing financially great, you said you have to dip into savings every month. I hope you dont think i am being harsh, not my intention.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 9:13:22 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 9:18:18 GMT -5
"As for feeling sorry for him, yeah, I do kind of. He's lost EVERYTHING. He doesn't even have most of his clothes anymore because he was living in the state forest when he was arrested and I'm sure they're all gone now. He doesn't have property to garnish and I wouldn't want them taking money from his IRA even if that was legal. How much all of this was his fault and how much was out of his control? I don't know. But, if he'd been severely injured in a car accident and I just said "tough, pay up", you'd all think I was evil. " It is not your fault he lost everything. From what i remember you had to push/help him to get that job, or maybe tge IRA, etc. you do not need to feel sorry for him. Feel sorry for yourself and your kids, i dont say this in a mean way. Who will take care of your son if you couldnt work? I was feeling sorry for my ex thinking he would lose his house if i wasnt helping. But guess what 1.5 years later he still has it, caught up fully on house payments! It may have been partially medical problems but your duty is to yourself and most importantly to your kids. Save yourself and your kid first then you can worry about him and his future. It is not like you are doing financially great, you said you have to dip into savings every month. I hope you dont think i am being harsh, not my intention. I've never helped him get a job, he fought to get this last one in the middle of a bad job market and just kept hounding the owner until he finally hired him (I know the feeling, LOL). He was there two years and they nearly doubled his salary in that time, and then I saw the familiar pattern happening. He was acting like he was too good for them, wanted to start his own business, complaining about how things were done there. I knew it wouldn't be long. The hand injury and the depression that followed that, were the final nail in the coffin. I did set up the IRA for him when were married though. He had no clue how to do that or where.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 9:21:47 GMT -5
BTW, your actions are exactly how sane, decent people should act. You're a reasonable, good person and you're trying to deal with him like he's a reasonable, good person. Unfortunately, it appears that he is not capable of that right now and maybe not ever.
That's the tough thing about dealing with someone that has mental illness, it's almost like having another child, not a partner. You can't assume that they'll be a partner and act in good faith like a partner would. You need to be thinking 50 steps ahead and be assuming that you are the one who is responsible for setting things up in a way that they cannot possibly be run off into the ditch.
When we talk about things like the motorhome, you're assuming he'll be rational and reasonable, or the rehab program will prevent him from doing something stupid or that you can call the police for help. We're saying that you need to be the one that looks for potential pitfalls like that and takes steps to prevent them from happening before they do. Just like you wouldn't send your 3 year old to school with a backpack filled with knives and assume school will keep him safe or you can call 911 to get him stitched up if he gets cut... you need to foresee issues like the motorhome and not assume your mentally ill, abusive X who thinks you got divorced only on paper so he could get insurance and who has no funds to pay for repairs or lot storage will intuitively know that it won't be OK to just live where it's easy and free. I do feel like I need to take care of him all the time and protect him from himself which is exhausting. Last night I noticed he's contacting his dumb ass loser friend again. I'm torn. On the one hand I want him to get all better. On the other I'm ok with him crashing and burning so I can be free of the whole thing. It's this in the middle stuff that is so hard to handle.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 9:23:29 GMT -5
And by the way, I absolutely hate myself when I fantasize about him just getting put away for two years or even worse. The guilt I get from some of these thoughts is horrible.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 9:25:53 GMT -5
Ok so my point is you have done enough mothering for him. He is a grown man. Believe me, i have done the same, i worried about the same things with both of my exes. You do not have the luxury to worry about him. Just take care of yourself and kids first, even if it means taking a third of his salary because you need it for your kid. I really wish you the best.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 9:28:54 GMT -5
"I'm torn. On the one hand I want him to get all better. On the other I'm ok with him crashing and burning so I can be free of the whole thing. It's this in the middle stuff that is so hard to handle. "
Stop this please. It doesnt sound like even his own mother is as worried about him. I have been there done that, the worrying, how would he take care of himself without me thing. Guess what they do just fine. The more you do this, the less he will have an incentive to take care of himself.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 25, 2014 9:32:39 GMT -5
Ahh Minnesota you are entitled to your feelings. I'd feel teh same way if I were you.
Have you read Co-dependent No More? If you haven't I strongly suggest you do at least that.
This is co-dependence:
I do feel like I need to take care of him all the time and protect him from himself which is exhausting. Last night I noticed he's contacting his dumb ass loser friend again
It's understandable to want to help someone, I'm a rescuer at heart. But when you're dealing with someone who is incapable of helping themselves but VERY capable of manipulating others, it's a recipe for disaster. He's sucking you right down the rabbit hole with him.
Repeat to yourself in the mirror every day, write a sticky note and stick it somewhere you see it everyday, whatever that says "His problems are his own. HE has to fix himself, I cannot save him from himself"
In reality you're making things worse. He's getting the message from you taht nothing is wrong b/c you keep asking "how high" every time he tells you to jump. I'm not saying that to be harsh, I am saying it b/c it is true. Think about the things his mother does and you acknowledge she's an enabler. You need to recognize you're doing the same thing and stop it. He will never get better if he is not forced to stand on his own two feet.
Watching someone crash/burn is not easy, nobody enjoys watching that. You do not have to crash/burn right along with him. You owe it to your son to step back and protect yourself (and him). You cannot save his father from himself.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 9:33:20 GMT -5
I do feel like I need to take care of him all the time and protect him from himself which is exhausting. Last night I noticed he's contacting his dumb ass loser friend again. I'm torn. On the one hand I want him to get all better. On the other I'm ok with him crashing and burning so I can be free of the whole thing. It's this in the middle stuff that is so hard to handle. You are acting as if these are mutually exclusive. The only way he can get all better is if he crashes and burns... and drags HIMSELF back up from the ashes. You enabling him will never get him all better. You need to extract yourself from the middle. It doesn't have to be in an evil way, just a defined, easily recognizable, no mistakes to be made, direct, way... You need to keep repeating, to yourself, and to everyone else. This is what my kids deserve. This is what I deserve. This is what I need to do to ensure we get what we deserve.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 25, 2014 9:39:51 GMT -5
MPL I have no advice. I've divorced a man with mental issues while my children were small and it was hell. Somehow we all got through it, but the at the time I thought the craziness would never stop. I am sorry you are having to deal with all this.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Mar 25, 2014 10:20:48 GMT -5
But I will be involved with him for the next 14 years no matter what I want. I just don't see where assuming he's an evil enemy out to get me all the time is going to do anything but drive me batshit crazy in no time. Protecting yourself and your kids from any future "episodes" is not assuming he's evil. It's preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. Plus if you already have things in place, like schduled contact times and supervision rules then YOU won't stress either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 16:34:33 GMT -5
MPL, I really like you a lot, and I'm so sorry you are going through this.
But last I heard, you had two kids. You really, really don't need a third.
Your ex has to learn to stand up on his own two feet, before ANYTHING else can happen for him: a job, running his own business, taking proper care of his son, having a relationship (with you or anybody else).
HE IS NOT THERE YET.
I find myself wondering, about the MH. Could you sell it and give him the money instead? I'm guessing probably not, but I thought it was worth asking. If you could do that, legally, the MH would be out of your yard. Because I too think it's going to be "convenient" for your ex to move back into that MH (since it's all he has). Does it have a shower? A washing machine? A kitchen? Probably not. So, he'll probably ask you to let him shower in your house, let him do his laundry in your house, let him cook / eat in your house, let him tuck your DS2 in. And your bed is probably more comfortable than the bed in the MH, so he may also ask you to let him get a good night's sleep, just this once, in your (his old) bed. Does it even have a toilet?! Because if it doesn't, that's not once a day in your house (his old house), that's several times a day.
If you're not careful, he'll be living there again, sooner rather than later.
PLEASE, take the time to think about what YOU want, and how to make it happen / make sure it doesn't happen. Your first obligations are to your sons. Then to yourself.
I also REALLY fear that if DS1's dad thinks his son is living in Crazytown, he will (successfully) petition for custody. He has more money than you, and, he has a SAH spouse.
If YOU choose to let your DS1 live with his dad and stepmom for a while, that's one thing. But if your DS1's dad fights for custody, and gets it, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
Hugs to you.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 25, 2014 16:39:30 GMT -5
I thought of this, too. If my ex had issues with their spouse and it didn't look like my ex was handling it well or that my kid was safe, I'd be hiring a lawyer and back in court so fast your head would spin.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 21:06:26 GMT -5
MPL, I really like you a lot, and I'm so sorry you are going through this. But last I heard, you had two kids. You really, really don't need a third. Your ex has to learn to stand up on his own two feet, before ANYTHING else can happen for him: a job, running his own business, taking proper care of his son, having a relationship (with you or anybody else). HE IS NOT THERE YET. I find myself wondering, about the MH. Could you sell it and give him the money instead? I'm guessing probably not, but I thought it was worth asking. If you could do that, legally, the MH would be out of your yard. Because I too think it's going to be "convenient" for your ex to move back into that MH (since it's all he has). Does it have a shower? A washing machine? A kitchen? Probably not. So, he'll probably ask you to let him shower in your house, let him do his laundry in your house, let him cook / eat in your house, let him tuck your DS2 in. And your bed is probably more comfortable than the bed in the MH, so he may also ask you to let him get a good night's sleep, just this once, in your (his old) bed. Does it even have a toilet?! Because if it doesn't, that's not once a day in your house (his old house), that's several times a day. If you're not careful, he'll be living there again, sooner rather than later. PLEASE, take the time to think about what YOU want, and how to make it happen / make sure it doesn't happen. Your first obligations are to your sons. Then to yourself. I also REALLY fear that if DS1's dad thinks his son is living in Crazytown, he will (successfully) petition for custody. He has more money than you, and, he has a SAH spouse. If YOU choose to let your DS1 live with his dad and stepmom for a while, that's one thing. But if your DS1's dad fights for custody, and gets it, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Hugs to you. The MH has everything but the washer and dryer. I CAN see him trying to live in it, but not on my property. I won't let him do that. I'm not worried about him trying (beyond asking) or me giving in. Also, no worries with older son's dad. We get along very well and talk about everything that pertains to our son, including stepdad and he's comfortable with how I'm handling things. I think he even likes my ex, he definitely wishes the best for him. Even if he was quietly concerned, his sister and mother would not be (quiet that is). They have zero filters when it comes to what's on their minds and I see/talk with them quite a bit. His sister was my matron of honor in both my weddings and is probably my only "friend" that I associate with outside of work, she even lived with me a couple times. If concern was brewing in that family they would let me know. They don't beat around the bush. Older son doesn't even have any contact with him and hasn't for almost a year now.
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Deleted
Joined: Oct 10, 2024 4:27:54 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 21:13:43 GMT -5
I do have problems with being wishy washy with him and laying down the law with regards to setting a schedule. I try to avoid conflict and give in too easy.
I'm curious how this Daddy and Me thing is going to go down starting next Tuesday. We stopped in to visit today because his Mom and sister were there and asked if we could and he said he hasn't been allowed to go anywhere the past two days because Sunday night he stayed up past curfew and had a phone and Monday he didn't get his "homework" done.
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