les63
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Post by les63 on Feb 10, 2014 21:34:41 GMT -5
I don't have friends. Anyone can PM me for facebook. Don't think anyone will thou.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 10, 2014 21:37:31 GMT -5
I hadn't thought about your situation Gira, but I would have different thoughts on the matter if I had walked in your shoes. I also was reflecting on this, in that my experience is a little different than most, which probably makes me more cynical. I come from an environment where I didn't know what a good boundary was until my 30's. I think people who are in relationships that have good boundaries (whether it's your spouse, your parents, extended family, etc) I think your lens is much different. I really do envy that you have a good relationship with your parents. I guess I don't ever say "never say never" anymore. People will surprise you when they show you what they are capable of, and prove that they are really capable of anything. I think it applies to both good and bad situations. I'm always surprised at how few people here have dealt with infidelity. Maybe YMers have good boundaries. And, FWIW, one of the go-to books for healing from infidelity in marriage is "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. When boundaries fail, it's usually referred to as going down a "slippery slope." I think you do have to define "friends." Personally, I think when you have more emotional intimacy with a friend (regardless of the gender) than you have with your spouse, there are issues that need to be addressed and that marriage becomes ripe for a possible affair. When you have one or both partners that are not tending to their own emotional needs, I also think that creates a weakness where it's possible to start on the slipper slope of poor boundaries...
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cktc
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Post by cktc on Feb 10, 2014 21:53:35 GMT -5
Giramomma, I've also dealt with infidelity, and suspect we might both frequent SI from the sound of your post.
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sunshinegal1981
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Post by sunshinegal1981 on Feb 11, 2014 0:34:19 GMT -5
^^^ May I ask what SI is? Pardon my ignorance.
The 'emotional affair' discussion is an interesting one. I, for one, reject the notion that my spouse must be my 'everything', my soulmate. I believe it is IMPORTANT for married people to have significant, rewarding relationships with people who aren't their spouse. But where does that cross the line into emotional affair territory?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 11, 2014 0:48:45 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd call it ironic. Couples that impose these rules on each other tend to believe either will cheat given enough rope or exposure to possibilities. They also tend to be people who have met while cheating on others and overall have higher cheating rates than 'free range' I trust you type couples.
FWIW.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 11, 2014 0:51:38 GMT -5
What a bull! It whether you don't care about spouse or you'll be jealous. I realize that not everyone is getting married because they are in love...that's sad. If he was sleeping with a female coworker, I'd be jealous. But otherwise, why do I care if he's friends with women? Me thinks Loony has an interesting conception of love which is not like most YM posters. Some people tend to think love is possessive, controlling, and showers one with gifts. (I.e., I think that's where Loony's head might be at, but IDK.)
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 11, 2014 0:57:47 GMT -5
Yup, although sometimes its just a PITA. I am friends with two couples locally. I know both couples through the wives but the husbands get along with me too. In those two cases I think the husbands share my love of cars, and they are hoping to use me to get their wives healthier and/or happier, so nothing untoward. On the other awkward pole, I have two couples I introduced to each other who have been married for years. Both I rarely hear from. One, I can usually only get through to the husband as the wife has become a crazy work-aholic and the other apparently had an internal custody battle I wasn't privy to - and I got assigned to the wife. They got close in large part because my Mom used them, my current two best friends, to plan my 21st birthday party. (Surprise, Optimist! )
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 11, 2014 1:44:55 GMT -5
Did I miss the answer to Archie's question about how we are defining friendship?
im not okay with opposite gender actual friends--go out and leave the spouse behind type of relationship. I have no issue with being sociable with coworkers or another aspect of his life in a group setting, but DH having I ndividual time with another female just isn't okay with me. I don't understand why vice versa would be okay either.
Ive dealt with infidelity in my first marriage, so that has probably altered my perspective.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Feb 11, 2014 3:33:09 GMT -5
I don't understand the whole fear of cheating thing. If Dh wants to cheat how could I stop him or vice versa? It is nonsensical to me. If I want to cheat he can't stop me so why worry?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 6:04:20 GMT -5
One of my best friends over the last 14 years is a male. We dated for a few months when we first met, broke up, and ended up being really good friends. We've helped each other get through some difficult times over the years. Shoving him out of my life just because I meet a guy that I like is not an option.
I do step back when I know he's dating someone he really likes, because I don't want to cause problems. I don't call him as much, I let him call me. I don't ask him to go out with me or go over to his house. I'm willing to meet her so we can get to know each other and I won't be some unknown chick that her boyfriend talks to. If she doesn't want to meet me, that's fine too. Whatever works. I'm not going anywhere, and I'd try to do what I can to make whoever he chooses to be with comfortable with our friendship if she wasn't ok with it when he first told her.
I've dated men that had female friends. It's not a shocker. I think that by the time you're in your 40's you've been around long enough and met enough people that it's likely you have a friend or 2 of the opposite gender, especially if you've spent any length of time single.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 6:09:56 GMT -5
I see that since me and my friend dated briefly way back when, it would be a problem for some people. I guess I can understand that. The dating was such a small blip on the radar that I don't even think of myself as one of his exes, just as his friend. But I can see how someone else would see it differently.
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constanz22
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Post by constanz22 on Feb 11, 2014 7:41:14 GMT -5
I see that since me and my friend dated briefly way back when, it would be a problem for some people. I guess I can understand that. The dating was such a small blip on the radar that I don't even think of myself as one of his exes, just as his friend. But I can see how someone else would see it differently. That's exactly how I feel about my friend.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 11, 2014 8:16:34 GMT -5
^^^ May I ask what SI is? Pardon my ignorance. The 'emotional affair' discussion is an interesting one. I, for one, reject the notion that my spouse must be my 'everything', my soulmate. I believe it is IMPORTANT for married people to have significant, rewarding relationships with people who aren't their spouse. But where does that cross the line into emotional affair territory? SI is Surviving Infidelity.com It's a really good resource. I didn't say that your spouse has to be everything. As for the line, it's hard to explain. I've gone without emotional intimacy in my marriage for a really long time. (There was also no connection when we were doing the deed, FWIW.) I got it from other sources. There were some periods of time where if my H and I grunted at each other or literally exchanged 2 or 3 sentences, that was a good conversation day. I understand that some people would argue that exchanging once sentence a day with your spouse or not talking at all with them for years at a time would be a great relationship. Having experienced a marriage with emotional intimacy and without it, I'd prefer the marriage that has some sort of emotional intimacy. I generally don't talk about my deepest problems with people outside my marriage. Here are some examples: 1) The medical needs of my family, including my children 2) My H's addiction (I mention it here, but I really don't talk about it) 3) My sex life 4) Any "problems" I'm having with my husband. As someone else alluded to, I really do believe that some things should stay within the bounds of marriage. (But, I missed that whole, talk about sex with your girlfriends gene.) I also prefer that my husband is my best friend. That doesn't mean that I must spend 24/7 with him. It just means that I'm going to reveal all of my self, my hopes, dreams, fears, warts and all to him rather than to everyone else but him. A good book on emotional intimacy, is Matthew Kelly's "The Seven Levels of Emotional Intimacy." From a blog: Kelly identifies the seven levels of intimacy as: clichés, facts, opinions, hopes, and dreams, feelings, faults, fears and failures, and legitimate needs.
Kelly says intimacy requires that we allow others to see us for who we really are. He believes that people need to show their true selves to other persons. They need to show their best and worst sides and to share every part of themselves with someone."
So often you read on Surviving Infidelity. People start bringing their marital problems outside of their marriage. Joe and Judy are friends. Joe is feeling unappreciated at home. Joe is sad about this and Judy picks up because they are friends. Joe does NOT tell his wife how he's feeling, or he doesn't tell her how severe the problems is. Judy asks what's wrong, and Joe tells. Judy says "Oh, Joe, I'm sorry your wife isn't appreciating you. You know, you really are a good guy. Look at all what you do. You work, your an involved father, and you are very funny." Joe feels encouraged by this and starts saying more to Judy, and things escalate from there...Joe starts feeling good about himself with Judy. Maybe they get a little flirty. Really, the above is quite textbook for how the "slippery slope" starts.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 11, 2014 9:29:01 GMT -5
People start bringing their marital problems outside of their marriage. Joe and Judy are friends. Joe is feeling unappreciated at home. Joe is sad about this and Judy picks up because they are friends. Joe does NOT tell his wife how he's feeling, or he doesn't tell her how severe the problems is. Judy asks what's wrong, and Joe tells. Judy says "Oh, Joe, I'm sorry your wife isn't appreciating you. You know, you really are a good guy. Look at all what you do. You work, your an involved father, and you are very funny." Joe feels encouraged by this and starts saying more to Judy, and things escalate from there...Joe starts feeling good about himself with Judy. Maybe they get a little flirty. Really, the above is quite textbook for how the "slippery slope" starts.
{Sorry, I'm somehow messing up the quotes, the above quote is giramomma, not sunshinegal.}
That makes sense. FWIW, I think maybe one of the reasons both DH and I have both had opposite sex friends without going down the slippery slope is that we both are very circumspect about what we share with friends - male or female. Doesn't matter if it's a male friend or a female friend, I would never, ever talk about details of our sex life, for example. Some of my female friends do share those types of details; I don't share those details with male or female friends. When we've had issues in the marriage, it's also very rare for me to discuss the details of the issue with friends. If I do discuss the details of the issue, I try very hard to discuss both sides (of course that's impossible to do accurately since one only sees one side, but you can try) and to not make DH sound like a monster because I think the primary bond and responsibility is to DH. It just doesn't seem fair to tear down DH to someone that he will encounter in the future when he hasn't had a chance to share his side or even know what was discussed.
Like Giramomma, I sometimes share more on this board than I do in real life because the protection of being anonymous allows me to share without feeling like it's a betrayal of DH.
Our marriage is not perfect. Sometimes it's not even good. But we both work hard on making it work and I'm not sure I'd be able to do that if I felt my primary bond and relationship was with someone other than DH. Unfortunately, it's tough because the times you most need support and love from a friend are the times when things aren't good. No easy answers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 9:32:49 GMT -5
That makes sense. FWIW, I think maybe one of the reasons both DH and I have both had opposite sex friends without going down the slippery slope is that we both are very circumspect about what we share with friends - male or female. Doesn't matter if it's a male friend or a female friend, I would never, ever talk about details of our sex life, for example. Some of my female friends do share those types of details; I don't share those details with male or female friends. When we've had issues in the marriage, it's also very rare for me to discuss the details of the issue with friends. If I do discuss the details of the issue, I try very hard to discuss both sides (of course that's impossible to do accurately since one only sees one side, but you can try) and to not make DH sound like a monster because I think the primary bond and responsibility is to DH. It just doesn't seem fair to tear down DH to someone that he will encounter in the future when he hasn't had a chance to share his side or even know what was discussed.
Like Giramomma, I sometimes share more on this board than I do in real life because the protection of being anonymous allows me to share without feeling like it's a betrayal of DH.
Our marriage is not perfect. Sometimes it's not even good. But we both work hard on making it work and I'm not sure I'd be able to do that if I felt my primary bond and relationship was with someone other than DH. Unfortunately, it's tough because the times you most need support and love from a friend are the times when things aren't good. No easy answers.
This is why I think it would be helpful to define friendship. I am sure all of us make idle friendly chit chat with people of the opposite sex whether at work or at a party. But does that make you a friend in the sense that we are talking about? I would say no. I would think a friend in this sense would be someone you seek out to talk with either in person, over social media, texts, phone calls etc. Someone you make plans to do things with. Some you talk to about more than just idle chit chat about the weather and the Olympics.
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 11, 2014 9:39:02 GMT -5
Yeah, it's tough to define friendship.
When I'm talking about close friends - as close as friends get - I'm talking about people that I regularly talk with (phone, text, email) and specifically plan events with. They are people who know both good and bad details about my life and for whom I know similar good and bad things about theirs. They are also people who are close enough that I don't have to put on any "front" with and that could see my house a mess, for example. They're a person who I'd do something personal for (take to a doctor, help care for injuries/surgeries) and who I'd feel comfy asking for the same. They're a person with whom I can discuss things that I know make me look petty, ugly or awful (how I really feel about _______ no matter how un-PC it is.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 11:16:11 GMT -5
Neither my wife or myself have friends of the opposite sex for the most part. In general, I don’t really “get together” with people unless it’s a couple/family activity. I haven’t been out with just guys in a LONG time, like I’d say it’s been literally 3 years. In the past, we used to do that quite a bit but all my really good friends live 20+ minute drive now. Plus, our wives have become such good friends that they all want to see each other so we just do it as a group. The upside of this approach is that I have a driver when I need it..heh, heh.
I used to always warn my wife (then girlfriend) that guys have ulterior motives, no matter how friendly they appear. I think she saw that in full swing when we broke up for a short time post-college and all these friends began to pursue her a bit more aggressively.
Talking in the office is obviously ok, maybe even going out to the occasional lunch/coffee during the work day (not really for me, but a lot of people do it) ,but I think it’s a bit strange if I hung out after work with a female friend.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 11:22:21 GMT -5
DH and I have known each other since 1992, so all of our friends know our spouses.
The only people that he doesn't know all that well are my online peeps, and he is always invited to join me for any meet up I have. He has declined all of them so far so I am pretty sure he doesn't have a problem with it.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Feb 11, 2014 11:54:15 GMT -5
I hope you aren't married. I wouldn't want to be your spouse and read 'nobody is that cute' from you
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Feb 11, 2014 11:57:02 GMT -5
He is talking to every one of them in the store behind a counter while I am talking to you here. I sit so he can not leave while I am sitting here, so in order for him to leave I have to get up. And when I am up I can observe his behavior from my position... That sounds creepy. mmmm, what did you actually LIKED in this post? That swamp called me creepy or that I was funny as hell and she didn't get it? Just wondering Is swamp was pronounced persona non grata here and I missed ceremony?
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 11, 2014 11:57:38 GMT -5
^^^ May I ask what SI is? Pardon my ignorance. The 'emotional affair' discussion is an interesting one. I, for one, reject the notion that my spouse must be my 'everything', my soulmate. I believe it is IMPORTANT for married people to have significant, rewarding relationships with people who aren't their spouse. But where does that cross the line into emotional affair territory? SI is Surviving Infidelity.com It's a really good resource. I didn't say that your spouse has to be everything. As for the line, it's hard to explain. I've gone without emotional intimacy in my marriage for a really long time. (There was also no connection when we were doing the deed, FWIW.) I got it from other sources. There were some periods of time where if my H and I grunted at each other or literally exchanged 2 or 3 sentences, that was a good conversation day. I understand that some people would argue that exchanging once sentence a day with your spouse or not talking at all with them for years at a time would be a great relationship. Having experienced a marriage with emotional intimacy and without it, I'd prefer the marriage that has some sort of emotional intimacy. I generally don't talk about my deepest problems with people outside my marriage. Here are some examples: 1) The medical needs of my family, including my children 2) My H's addiction (I mention it here, but I really don't talk about it) 3) My sex life 4) Any "problems" I'm having with my husband. As someone else alluded to, I really do believe that some things should stay within the bounds of marriage. (But, I missed that whole, talk about sex with your girlfriends gene.) I also prefer that my husband is my best friend. That doesn't mean that I must spend 24/7 with him. It just means that I'm going to reveal all of my self, my hopes, dreams, fears, warts and all to him rather than to everyone else but him. A good book on emotional intimacy, is Matthew Kelly's "The Seven Levels of Emotional Intimacy." From a blog: Kelly identifies the seven levels of intimacy as: clichés, facts, opinions, hopes, and dreams, feelings, faults, fears and failures, and legitimate needs.
Kelly says intimacy requires that we allow others to see us for who we really are. He believes that people need to show their true selves to other persons. They need to show their best and worst sides and to share every part of themselves with someone."
So often you read on Surviving Infidelity. People start bringing their marital problems outside of their marriage. Joe and Judy are friends. Joe is feeling unappreciated at home. Joe is sad about this and Judy picks up because they are friends. Joe does NOT tell his wife how he's feeling, or he doesn't tell her how severe the problems is. Judy asks what's wrong, and Joe tells. Judy says "Oh, Joe, I'm sorry your wife isn't appreciating you. You know, you really are a good guy. Look at all what you do. You work, your an involved father, and you are very funny." Joe feels encouraged by this and starts saying more to Judy, and things escalate from there...Joe starts feeling good about himself with Judy. Maybe they get a little flirty. Really, the above is quite textbook for how the "slippery slope" starts For me it still boils down to trust. I trust that my dh is self aware enough to know the potential consequences of cheating and that if he found himself in a situation that was . I've told him cheating isn't even necessarily a deal breaker me, but obviously there is no guarantee on that. For me it still comes down to trust. I trust that my dh is self aware enough to know the consequences of cheating and to know if he is putting himself in a situation that is likely to lead down that road. He knows that cheating isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me, however lying to me likely would be. If my trust was broken I (without knowing for sure since I haven't been faced with it but) I believe that I would have to end the relationship because I don't think that I would ever be able to give that trust back. Part of the difference may be that if I was going to cheat, hands down it would be with a woman. That does not mean that I want to have a physical relationship with any of my female friends, and it would be completely inappropriate for my dh to tell me I can't have close, personal female friends because of that. I apply that same logic to opposite gender friendships.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Feb 11, 2014 12:07:38 GMT -5
I don't understanding cheating. I would never start anything of a romantic or sexual nature with a married person. I have way more self esteem than to "settle" for someone who has such poor character as to cheat on their spouse. No one 'understand' cheating. Cheating is action of sleeping with 'another' person while having one already. There is nothing to understand. Love on the other hand is a bitch! You can never tell never because when it comes over you and consuming you 100% and your brain is so overwhelmed so it is stopping its functions (99% of them). This how you know it is love and you don't care if he is married, older, rich, poor...you just go 'whatever' on everything and doing it regardless. Then passion must reduce and if you are still thinking of him/her 90% of the time - that's must be love. Or desperation. But it is case for phsychologist.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 11, 2014 12:09:27 GMT -5
For me it still comes down to trust. I trust that my dh is self aware enough to know the consequences of cheating and to know if he is putting himself in a situation that is likely to lead down that road. He knows that cheating isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me, however lying to me likely would be. If my trust was broken I (without knowing for sure since I haven't been faced with it but) I believe that I would have to end the relationship because I don't think that I would ever be able to give that trust back. But here's the thing: cheaters don't really care about consequences for their behavior. They behave more like addicts than rational folks. There's a good amount of folks that don't use protection when they cheat. There's no self-awareness or playing out of consequences when you are willing to endanger both your health and the health of your partner for whatever short term good feelings you are getting in the present. (And, while it is rare, there are the few cases where the cheater infects their spouse with HIV.) Here's one thing I've learned about trust. Unconditional trust is rather inappropriate, unless you are in a good/healthy relationship with your parents as a child. Otherwise, one shouldn't have unconditional trust. And, as for breaking the trust, my H really has earned most of mine back. It took 18 months of him working really hard, but he did it. But, again, just like everyone else, he is capable of anything. I really don't like having learned the lesson the way I did. But, I am grateful for learning that lesson early in our marriage and early in my life.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 11, 2014 12:25:45 GMT -5
I trust my wife completely. No reservations, no hesitation. Why spend your life with somebody that you can't?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 11, 2014 12:42:15 GMT -5
mmmm, what did you actually LIKED in this post? That swamp called me creepy or that I was funny as hell and she didn't get it? Just wondering Is swamp was pronounced persona non grata here and I missed ceremony? No, Swamp did not call YOU creepy, tloonya. Swamp said the situation you presented SOUNDED CREEPY. There's a difference. Frankly, the situation sounds creepy to me, as well. I'd be very upset if someone felt they had to watch me every moment to be sure I didn't do something unacceptable - especially, if it was someone who was supposed to love me and care about me. Now, if Swamp, or anyone else says: "Tloonya, you're creepy!", you be sure and let me know immediately.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on Feb 11, 2014 12:49:42 GMT -5
I trust my wife completely. No reservations, no hesitation. Why spend your life with somebody that you can't? Though you can't tell she is so cute you can look at her all day? That's...weird
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 12:52:07 GMT -5
I trust my wife completely. No reservations, no hesitation. Why spend your life with somebody that you can't? Not to bash anyone, but I don't consider it normal behavior to go out (1 on 1) with someone of the opposite sex when you are married I know I wouldn't do it, my friends wouldn't do it, and their spouse wouldn't do it. It has less to do with trust and is more out of respect. Different strokes for different folks, but most people that I consider that normal would probably avoid that situation.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 11, 2014 12:53:30 GMT -5
Nobody is cute enough that I want to spend my life stalking them 24/7. Literally nobody. Even watching the most beautiful woman in the world every second of everyday would get real old, real fast.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Feb 11, 2014 12:56:29 GMT -5
Part of the difference may be that if I was going to cheat, hands down it would be with a woman. That does not mean that I want to have a physical relationship with any of my female friends, and i t would be completely inappropriate for my dh to tell me I can't have close, personal female friends because of that. I apply that same logic to opposite gender friendships.I do understand this. I have had only a handful of crazy human connections in my life. And I wouldn't care if I connected with a man, who was not gay, and not my husband. I would be happy, and my husband will deal. I will never cheat on my husband. I have always been flirty, but it's a game that people play in society. And I flirt with men and women. My husband flirts too. I don't care. I knew I wanted a secure, confident partner. That was what I got. It was important to me, because I have "liberal" ideas about human connections. My husband also has this woman friend. I'm glad that he has her. He can go bitch to her about me. We all need outlets. They are true friends. I wouldn't begrudge them their connection. Just like I wouldn't want a connection I have to be begrudged. I have dealt with infidelity in all its forms, the giving and the receiving. And I know that while there can many reasons for it, the main reasons are problems deep in the relationship. yes, you have the occasional opportunistic fling, but most sane people do it, because they are not getting some emotional need met somewhere. I think that imposing rules about contact with the opposite sex will never address the issues and encourage fate's sense of humour by getting your spouse to explore the same sex. And I know that it's not simplistic as that. Nothing about human relationships are ever simple. But that line between what is appropriate and inappropriate is so so so impossible to define in absolute terms. You'll know it, and your partner will know it when they are at the line, and if you or your partner decides to cross it. Well, usually for most people, there is no coming back from that.
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tloonya
Junior Associate
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Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
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Post by tloonya on Feb 11, 2014 12:57:28 GMT -5
Nobody is cute enough that I want to spend my life stalking them 24/7. Literally nobody. Even watching the most beautiful woman in the world every second of everyday would get real old, real fast. Beautiful not equal interesting. Me and DH finding subjects to talk about all day.
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