AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 22, 2011 17:49:05 GMT -5
In spite of the highest per-pupil spending in the Midwest... cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-gIt's time to put on our big boy pants and admit that the government run school experiment has failed. It's time to get Federal and State governments OUT altogether, and time to give local control to the schools-- and hopefully at that level, they'll have the wisdom to at least allow competition (think about that for a second and let it sink in-- "allow" competition-- where are we? China? This is the UNITED STATES!) and maybe even really wise up and privatize the whole thing... cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 22, 2011 17:58:42 GMT -5
palmbeachpaul-this is now the 12th thread started in the last several days about the state of Wisconsin, the governor, the unions and teachers. There is no need for 12 threads pretty much about the same thing.
Please give me a reason why this new thread should remain open and why I should close about nine others.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 22, 2011 18:04:18 GMT -5
Why do you need to close any threads?
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 22, 2011 18:19:24 GMT -5
i thought that WI schools were said to be among the best?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 22, 2011 18:26:27 GMT -5
Why do you need to close any threads? Because we don't need 12 Wisconsin related threads. They are clogging up the front board. If you like I will create a sub board and move all the Wisconsin related threads there and you can post your hearts out. Anything union related, teacher related, Wisconsin student related, Wisconsin governor related, Wisconsin democrats related, Wisconsin 8th grade reading ability related, can be put there.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Feb 22, 2011 18:43:51 GMT -5
Wisc. schools have the second highest SATs in the country- the states without collective bargaining (SC, NC, TX, VA., Ga. are all in the bottom 6) This thread is idiotic and dishonest Pub/Murdock/Koch bought off claptrap. ty
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Feb 22, 2011 18:50:23 GMT -5
Wisc. no doubt has the highest bars in the country for proficiency. Pub Dupes!!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 22, 2011 18:58:19 GMT -5
This thread is about government run schools in Wisconsin, and not about the union - non-union debate. In fact, government run school is a universal failure-- union and non-union states perform about the same.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 22, 2011 19:02:22 GMT -5
It is a continuing discussion about the state of education and its educators in the state of Wisconsin.
Would you have even started this thread about Wisconsin if there had been nothing in the news about Wisconsin, the governor, teachers and unions? I don't believe so.
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rovo
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Post by rovo on Feb 22, 2011 19:04:11 GMT -5
The first quote does nothing to refute the OPs comment. The SATs typically are not even mandatory. Unless the entire school population within a state takes the SAT, then they can not be used to compare states.
Pertaining to the second quote, can you back up your statement with anything other than an opinion?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 19:21:53 GMT -5
They are among the best from that same report... showing Wisconsin, compared to other states... nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/chartsview.aspx?jur=WI&sbj=RED&gr=8&sample=R3&yr=2009&st=MN&acc=falseYou know we educate EVERY child... don't you?... You know that it is NOT realistic to suggest that a majority of students will read at a 12th grade level (Ivanhoe and Pride and Prejudice)... Should we do better... yeah... we should always strive to do so... but there is no way 100% of students have an 8th grade reading proficiency... why would you expect people with IQs of 80, or a profoundly mentally retarded student to read on grade level?... The majority have a basic or above reading level...
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Feb 22, 2011 19:24:09 GMT -5
Don't know where these stats came from but knowing how proficiency ratings are set they are misleading. My wife a 35 year teacher looked at them and came to the same conclusion. The whole thing starts where the top ratings are set. Are they an indication of being a preceptive reader 1 or 1/2 above grade level, or on the basic grade level expectations.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 19:26:17 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 22, 2011 19:27:12 GMT -5
How I came across the topic has nothing to do with the topic. Sure, it was helpful that the overpaid teachers in Wisconsin decided to help shine the light on their results, but this thread is about their results, and not their issues.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Feb 22, 2011 19:33:36 GMT -5
A. Sure it does. B. CNsNews is owned by the Heritage Center and is totally full of it. By the time you figure out how they're lying they're on to the next outrage. Total waste of time...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 22, 2011 19:34:20 GMT -5
Say no more.
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rovo
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Post by rovo on Feb 22, 2011 19:50:12 GMT -5
From the link of oped:
I assume the term proficient uses the standard definition, similar to: 1.Competent or skilled in doing or using something.
I would think a person of average or above average intelligence should be at least proficient in reading skills. I would also think Wisconsin has enough population within the state to justify a statement like the population meets the normal intelligence curve.
As such, how could we ever accept 34% of the students being proficient in reading.
I looked at the data supplied in the link and Wisconsin appears to be about typical for all states or even to the high side in reading proficiency. So, in my opinion the problem is not a Wisconsin problem but a national problem.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 22, 2011 19:57:14 GMT -5
From the link of oped: I assume the term proficient uses the standard definition, similar to: 1.Competent or skilled in doing or using something. I would think a person of average or above average intelligence should be at least proficient in reading skills. I would also think Wisconsin has enough population within the state to justify a statement like the population meets the normal intelligence curve. As such, how could we ever accept 34% of the students being proficient in reading. I looked at the data supplied in the link and Wisconsin appears to be about typical for all states or even to the high side in reading proficiency. So, in my opinion the problem is not a Wisconsin problem but a national problem. I agree with you - but I don't know what the stats mean - as opposed to the general population aged 30, 40, 50 etc. Are reading abilities going up, down or staying the same across generational lines
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Post by vl on Feb 22, 2011 20:09:06 GMT -5
Do any of you actually have school-aged children? not know any... actually RAISE them? There is no such thing as "education" any longer. There is programming. Children run through heady material quickly, are tested and move on to new material. there is no format for retention or collective review. Tracking in Freshmen and Sophomores at colleges are revealing that elementary skills are so poor that they cannot extend refresher classes to recover them.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 22, 2011 20:18:56 GMT -5
I've got 2. Both are performing at 12th grade levels in reading comprehension and their math skills are close to the same (just haven't been taught advanced math, but perform the math they have been taught at advanced proficiency). I will grant you our education system went to shit when they stopped teaching logic and started teaching memorization.
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Post by vl on Feb 22, 2011 20:26:31 GMT -5
I also have 2. It's a struggle to fill in the depth of content where that memorization leaves off. My 15 year-old is into college-level material. When she graduates HS in two years, she'll enter college with a 2-year degree in hand. It doesn't mean she should be. Too much programming without unsupervised fun time is destroying our youth. Trying to balance the destruction caused by No Child Left Behind and a national crisis with teaching "learning skills" is no easy task.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 20:32:40 GMT -5
I agree with you loop... and obviously i have some trouble with public school or i wouldn't homeschool... but then i think you have to look at the general population realistically...
One thing to remember Rovo is this... if you looked at the 4th grade test and the 8th grade test, you'd see that the precentages are about the same. But while the number of kids who moved from proficient at 4th to proficient at 8th went up... you can bet that those kids who are just basic at 8th, are most likely proficient at 3rd. And when they fail to be proficient at a 12th grade reading level... there is every chance that they WILL BE proficient at an 8th grade level...
All this test says is that they aren't proficient at the level they are taught... but i'm telling you, not everyone will be proficient at a 12th grade level. Not everyone can be... unless we make the 12th grade reading level more like an 8th grade reading level... which we don't want to do...
Most stuff for mass consumption is written closer to a 5-6th grade level anyway... so if we have a majority that is basic at a 12th grade level... not as horrible as it sounds...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 22, 2011 20:51:21 GMT -5
It's kind of hard to teach logic when you begin with the premise that everything around us came about by cosmic chance.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 22, 2011 20:59:12 GMT -5
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Feb 22, 2011 21:00:57 GMT -5
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 22, 2011 21:10:02 GMT -5
It's kind of hard to teach logic when you begin with the premise that everything around us came about by cosmic chance. Likewise difficult when you teach them that nothing they do matters because it's all in gods hands. Oh and that whole silly "We don't actually believe in science" problem that so many people have in this country
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Post by marjar on Feb 22, 2011 21:10:36 GMT -5
No doubt public education has serious problems, but not all are the fault of the system. Schools are dealing with a myriad of societal problems. Poverty and neglect in some instances. Indifference on the part of the students and demands of the parents - that don't always equate with higher standards of education. In addition, we no longer attract the best and the brightest as teachers. Other opportunities beckon. Ones in which they can make a more competitive salary and not have to deal with all the problems and a genuine lack of respect for their profession. FYI edudemic.com/2011/02/proof-that-having-no-collective-bargaining-for-teachers-hurts-students/
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2011 21:12:29 GMT -5
I'm sure that will improve marjar... when we finally get rid of all those cushy salaries and benefits... i'm sure lower pay and worse working conditions will attract a much higher quality of teacher...
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Feb 22, 2011 21:13:55 GMT -5
I agree with you loop... and obviously i have some trouble with public school or i wouldn't homeschool... but then i think you have to look at the general population realistically... One thing to remember Rovo is this... if you looked at the 4th grade test and the 8th grade test, you'd see that the precentages are about the same. But while the number of kids who moved from proficient at 4th to proficient at 8th went up... you can bet that those kids who are just basic at 8th, are most likely proficient at 3rd. And when they fail to be proficient at a 12th grade reading level... there is every chance that they WILL BE proficient at an 8th grade level... All this test says is that they aren't proficient at the level they are taught... but i'm telling you, not everyone will be proficient at a 12th grade level. Not everyone can be... unless we make the 12th grade reading level more like an 8th grade reading level... which we don't want to do... Most stuff for mass consumption is written closer to a 5-6th grade level anyway... so if we have a majority that is basic at a 12th grade level... not as horrible as it sounds... Not at 8th grade profiency doesn't mean can't read. And having occasionally forayed into mass consumption - I can definitely attest to the low reading comprehension level of New York Time's best sellers On an AR reading level, I'm betting maybe 7th grade? Depending on the length of course.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 22, 2011 21:17:56 GMT -5
No doubt public education has serious problems, but not all are the fault of the system. Schools are dealing with a myriad of societal problems. Poverty and neglect in some instances. Indifference on the part of the students and demands of the parents - that don't always equate with higher standards of education. In addition, we no longer attract the best and the brightest as teachers. Other opportunities beckon. Ones in which they can make a more competitive salary and not have to deal with all the problems and a genuine lack of respect for their profession. FYI edudemic.com/2011/02/proof-that-having-no-collective-bargaining-for-teachers-hurts-students/I know I am old fashioned - but I think a huge problem is there is no longer any personal accountability - on any part - parents, students or teachers
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