jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Feb 23, 2011 10:16:14 GMT -5
>>I fail to see, with your complaints about teachers now, how you think paying them less with fewer benefits, will help attract BETTER teachers? You think the ones who are passionate are not doing it now because of what?... they don't want to be compensated fairly.... so they will wait until the pay and benefits drop... and THEN they'll come out of the woodwork so they can be martyrs to their cause?? ... <<
The problem right now is too many bad teachers are spending far too long in the classroom where they are protected from their poor performance. There are plenty of people who want to be teachers right now but can't get in because of all the dead weight clogging the system.
>>I'm sorry.. you want less educated teachers? Is that what you're saying?..<<
I'm saying there's no additional benefit of having a teacher with a Masters or Ph D as opposed to just a Bachelors degree or even an Associates degree. You don't need a Masters degree in anything to teach the basics...and there was nothing in K-12 (even in advanced college-level courses) that required Masters or PhD level schooling.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Feb 23, 2011 10:34:14 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 11:38:53 GMT -5
I think lots of kids are not as well educated these days as in the past because of modern technology. My oldest is 35, youngest 18, 3 in between. My oldest is still from a generation where kids had to READ and WRITE and do MATH, while my youngest is from the generation that is REQUIRED to turn in all homework done on a computer from 3rd grade up, and was allowed to use calculators in class, as well as having open book tests. Without a lot of help from home, how could kids educated that way possibly be as learned as kids educated the old fashioned way? Since most families have both parents working with no free time, or only one parent working with no free time, or lazy parents on welfare trusting the schools to raise their kids right-- I am not at all surprised kids can't read. By the time my youngest hit HS she never even had homework, so-- nothing for the parent to even look at. Yes-- parents need to go out of their way to get involved, and unfortunately I do not think many parents are doing that. In defense of public school teachers they are teaching the curriculum handed to them, and if they have middle school kids getting good grades because of calculators and spell check and google who test terrible without technology to correct them and do the work for them I'm not sure the teacher is responsible for that. I think all of this is why more people are homeschooling these days. They want their kids to really learn things, not just bluff their way through.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 23, 2011 11:49:35 GMT -5
Tried to explain to a kid once that I was too lazy to constantly be looking for a calculator so I just memorized my basic math facts so I won't have to do all that work of finding and punching in the numbers. She thought I was crazy.
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Post by marjar on Feb 23, 2011 11:52:23 GMT -5
By the time my youngest hit HS she never even had homework, so-- nothing for the parent to even look at. Yes-- parents need to go out of their way to get involved, and unfortunately I do not think many parents are doing that. What did you do about the lack of homework, etc.?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 23, 2011 12:01:21 GMT -5
By the time my youngest hit HS she never even had homework, so-- nothing for the parent to even look at. Yes-- parents need to go out of their way to get involved, and unfortunately I do not think many parents are doing that. What did you do about the lack of homework, etc.? Homework is a great tool for sorting kids into those who are willing to work "off the clock" and those who will only work when they are "clocked in". Those who do homework should be indicated by the granting of certain grades which get them into better colleges (or college at all) so that they can be trained to fill slots in Corporate America which have the expectation of workers willing to take their work home with them. Those unwilling to do such work will be slotted for jobs with timeclocks.
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Post by vl on Feb 23, 2011 12:13:28 GMT -5
"I would like to see teacher salaries and benefits cut...I prefer getting people in there that are passionate about teaching, not their paychecks, benefits" Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3750&page=3#ixzz1EnpmhozDWe grossly under-pay teachers and we grossly over-pay bankers, financiers, lawyers, politicians and economists. If these folks were as passionate as teachers, perhaps dropping their pay to near-poverty will be painless. Let's do it today and see what happens. There are THOUSANDS protesting the WI government in brutal weather. My guess is-- not ONE of the above-mentioned pariah would even get out of their car for 10 minutes to make similar protest. Even if their future depended on it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 12:40:04 GMT -5
Well, we read a lot in my family, but aside from that I never had to do much because I am fortunate to have kids that have all been very smart and motivated on their own to do well because I was real mean about taking things away from them if they did not do well. All I ever had to do was make sure to keep in touch with the teachers, stay involved in what was going on, stop problems if they very trying to start, and keep a close eye on their grades. My kids all tested WAY above their grade level on (unassisted by technology) required testing here in AZ. Plus, all my kids played sports which is a great motivator to get good grades (or get cut). Plus, my kids had the advantage of going to elementary school in a little Mormon town where the school taught the old fashioned way, memorizing, flash cards, homework, etc, so by the time they hit computers and calculators and open book tests they at least knew how to read, spell, do math, etc. But not all parents have easy kids like mine were. Some need a lot more help at home, and it could be the early school years mine had helped them in middle school and HS. Oh, yeah, the biggest factor was probably that I was a stay at home Mom for 13 years, something many families are not able or willing to do these days. We did homework every night for years and years and years, which I checked over after they finished. By the time I had to get a job and move to Tucson my kids were already on the road to success in school. My youngest got the least of my time, and I had to put her in a charter school for HS, where she graduated with honors-one of four out of hundreds, mainly because of the school, I imagine, since I was working all of the time.
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 23, 2011 12:57:29 GMT -5
the biggest factor was probably that I was a stay at home Mom for 13 years, something many families are not able or willing to do these days **************** I always find it funny how being a SAHM is great for some folks and others get called spoiled housewives who leech off their hubbys when they do the exact same thing. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 23, 2011 13:04:54 GMT -5
Other than jealous hard-driving, bra-burning, "career" time 45 year old women with slight facial hair griping about how they can't find a good man, and spending gobs of money on fertility drugs and adoptions so they can stick their kids in daycare and get back to work...I don't hear the "lazy spoiled housewife" charge much.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Feb 23, 2011 13:06:48 GMT -5
"I would like to see teacher salaries and benefits cut...I prefer getting people in there that are passionate about teaching, not their paychecks, benefits" Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3750&page=3#ixzz1EnpmhozDWe grossly under-pay teachers and we grossly over-pay bankers, financiers, lawyers, politicians and economists. If these folks were as passionate as teachers, perhaps dropping their pay to near-poverty will be painless. Let's do it today and see what happens. There are THOUSANDS protesting the WI government in brutal weather. My guess is-- not ONE of the above-mentioned pariah would even get out of their car for 10 minutes to make similar protest. Even if their future depended on it. There's the big difference right there: WE ARE forced to pay teachers but WE ARE NOT forced to pay bankers, wall streeters, etc. The bankers set up their pay with the bank and it is up to the bank to figure out how to pay for it and still remain competitive in their industry. Teachers set up their pay with the state and then the state ends up raising more and more taxes to the detriment of everyone living in the state. If a Banker gets a $1M bonus, I am not directly affected (especially if I don't bank with that institution)...if teachers get a 2% raise my school property taxes go up 8-10% (exactly what happened the last two years due to those greedy, uncaring union bastards).
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 23, 2011 13:08:38 GMT -5
"I would like to see teacher salaries and benefits cut...I prefer getting people in there that are passionate about teaching, not their paychecks, benefits" Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=politics&action=display&thread=3750&page=3#ixzz1EnpmhozDWe grossly under-pay teachers and we grossly over-pay bankers, financiers, lawyers, politicians and economists. If these folks were as passionate as teachers, perhaps dropping their pay to near-poverty will be painless. Let's do it today and see what happens. There are THOUSANDS protesting the WI government in brutal weather. My guess is-- not ONE of the above-mentioned pariah would even get out of their car for 10 minutes to make similar protest. Even if their future depended on it. Ha! Most people don't have the TIME to get out of their car and protest, because the average worker whose salary and benefits average $61K a year are too busy WORKING to PAY TEACHER'S an average Wisconsin teacher's salary and benefits of $89,500. That, and they'd get fired for faking sick to protest their employer. If I wouldn't get banned, I'd have said, "you're a dumbass" and left it at that. Instead, I had to compose a thoughtful reply. Be thankful for that.
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steff
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Post by steff on Feb 23, 2011 13:14:50 GMT -5
...I don't hear the "lazy spoiled housewife" charge much.
*****************
You'd be surprised how many times I've heard it since I've been a SAHM..... been told that I 'play' in the garden.... that I'm sponging off my hubby.... that I'm lazy.... there is still very little respect for those that choose to be a SAHM....
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Feb 23, 2011 13:29:28 GMT -5
The OP article sources the information. It's in the US Dept of Eduation's report.
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vonnie6200
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Post by vonnie6200 on Feb 23, 2011 13:33:11 GMT -5
...I don't hear the "lazy spoiled housewife" charge much. ***************** You'd be surprised how many times I've heard it since I've been a SAHM..... been told that I 'play' in the garden.... that I'm sponging off my hubby.... that I'm lazy.... there is still very little respect for those that choose to be a SAHM.... And that is a real shame - I totally support SAHMs
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Post by craig on Feb 23, 2011 16:57:17 GMT -5
[quote author=hugh board=politics thread=3750 post=146606 time=1298418231]Wisc. schools have the second highest SATs in the country- the states without collective bargaining (SC, NC, TX, VA., Ga. are all in the bottom 6) This thread is idiotic and dishonest Pub/Murdock/Koch bought off claptrap. ty[/quote][/i]
This may have more to do with where these states are located not whether or not there is collective bargaining. I'm not bashing anyone from these states but priorities do differ in parts of the country. Wisconsin has always had good school systems and I'm not saying that because I am a product of them it's more about what I hear from friends that move away and have to send their kids to school in other states.
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hello fromWarsaw
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Feb 23, 2011 17:06:43 GMT -5
Again, reading proficiency average in the US is 30%, so Wisconsinn is WELL above average, according to the ARTICLE. Don't Dupes EVER get tired of being lied to, and parrotting the lies? DUH.
Screwing with teachers, firemen, and police to pay for tax cuts for the lying bloated rich and corp tax cuts? BRILLIANT!
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Feb 23, 2011 17:22:55 GMT -5
You'd be surprised how many times I've heard it since I've been a SAHM.....
You wouldn't hear it from me, I was a SAHD for a year. Mentally it sucked the brains out of me. Who need water boarding, leave someone to only interact with a couple of toddlers for a few months and they'll tell you anything.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 23, 2011 18:26:01 GMT -5
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Post by Thinking-long-term on Feb 23, 2011 19:18:05 GMT -5
My last year teaching high school i threw in some Mary Higgins Clark... cause i wanted to try to get them to read something for fun... a foreign concept... it was a 5.6 reading level if i remember correctly.... Just for fun... i went to Renlearn quick... AR scores for Mary Higgins Clark... from 5.1- 6.1 James Patterson's 1st to dies series... 4.4 - 5.5 Stephen King 5.8 - 6.8 Robin Cook 5.7 - 7.0 Michael Chrichton 4.1 - 7.3 Look for yourself... www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp#quicksearchGreat Link got sucked in for an hour went to Amazon and ordered two books.
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ugonow
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Post by ugonow on Feb 23, 2011 20:03:23 GMT -5
You have to wonder about a governor that lets his allies distort figures to make it sound like his states citizens are less educated than others,when just the opposite is true.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 20:07:35 GMT -5
Glad you like the renlearn site... what books did you order? I love books... My package from amazon today had a recorder and three books for little kids to learn the recorder... and i tried it for 10 minutes, and i am so bad at it, i'm never alowed to play again in the house when anyone else is home ....
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Feb 23, 2011 20:22:04 GMT -5
So, personally, I would like to see teacher salaries and benefits cut...I prefer getting people in there that are passionate about teaching, not their paychecks, benefits, and steel-armored "tenure." And to make it more affordable I would fight for not having teachers meet some kind of Masters or Ph D standard...none of which makes a bad teacher better, it just boosts their pay levels - what a waste of resources all around.
I am a high school teacher in California, and believe me, I am not doing this for the paycheck or the benefits. I am an Air force Veteran. I was an operating room tech while serving. If I would have become certified as a civilian, I would be earning much more money as an OR nurse than I am earning as a teacher. I knew I wanted to be a teacher since I was 9 years old, when I began tutoring Spanish speaking students (immigrant children) during my lunch hour and after school. I did this voluntarily and I loved it.
I work so many extra unpaid hours per week. I arrive to work an hour early everyday, in order to grade papers, enter grades, etc. I stay after hours every day (at least an hour and a half), in order to help students catch up on missed work due to absence, or to give extra help when they are having trouble with an assignment. I also call parents after school to inform them of their students' progress or problems. I average at least 4 -6 hours per week for lesson planning, lesson improvements, etc. (usually on the weekends)
I dont have to do all this. There are some teachers out there who do the bare minimum and who do not care. But most of the teachers I know, really do care and really do put in A LOT of extra unpaid hours, in order to educate the students the best they can.
I earn an ok living, but it is not by any means a wealthy salary. The cost of living in CA is high, and if I did not have a two income family, I would not be able to afford my modest 1480 sq ft home, nor my 2009 Hyundai Sonata. No, I am not living large, as some of you have been brainwashed to think. We are not asking to be rich, just not to be poor.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Feb 23, 2011 20:33:47 GMT -5
I would like to add that since I work in a district whose students come from low income families, and since we are in a budget deficit, I spend at least 2 thousand dollars per year on buying school supplies for my students. My school/district is no longer providing copy paper, pencils, pens, colored pencils, markers, project paper, electric pencil sharpeners, manilla folders, 3 hole puncher, scissors, glue, butcher paper, file folders, erasers, white board markers, desk cleaner, tissue, etc. I purchase all of these items for my classroom on my own dime.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2011 20:38:49 GMT -5
You and a few others are why I defend teachers when I can, sweet. I think the problems are societal, most of all, maybe the curriculums you are given that I touched on above where so much is done on computers and calculators at very young ages, lack of money to do things to keep kids interested, and in our part of the country we have our own issues with border related problems and all it brings. I'm sure there are also some really bad teachers, but I know you are not one of them. My kids have had some good teachers, and some really bad teachers. I do think it would be good to get rid of the bad ones. I'm sure there are enough good people out there that no child should ever have to sit in the classroom of a terrible teacher.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Feb 23, 2011 20:48:38 GMT -5
You and a few others are why I defend teachers when I can, sweet. I think the problems are societal, most of all, maybe the curriculums you are given that I touched on above where so much is done on computers and calculators at very young ages, lack of money to do things to keep kids interested, and in our part of the country we have our own issues with border related problems and all it brings. I'm sure there are also some really bad teachers, but I know you are not one of them. My kids have had some good teachers, and some really bad teachers. I do think it would be good to get rid of the bad ones. I'm sure there are enough good people out there that no child should ever have to sit in the classroom of a terrible teacher. Thank you krickitt. As always, you are good to me By the way, I agree that it should be easier to get rid of the bad teachers. I think that tenure should be done away with, or at least reformed, where teachers get only a 5 year tenure, and have to pass a tenure evaluation every 5 years. If they do not pass, they are on a probationary status, and are eligible to be fired.
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Post by Thinking-long-term on Feb 23, 2011 20:49:24 GMT -5
Glad you like the renlearn site... what books did you order? I love books... My package from amazon today had a recorder and three books for little kids to learn the recorder... and i tried it for 10 minutes, and i am so bad at it, i'm never alowed to play again in the house when anyone else is home .... A Tom Clancy I never read The Bear and the Dragon and Follett's Fall of Giants.
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Post by marjar on Feb 23, 2011 20:59:51 GMT -5
So, personally, I would like to see teacher salaries and benefits cut...I prefer getting people in there that are passionate about teaching, not their paychecks, benefits, and steel-armored "tenure." And to make it more affordable I would fight for not having teachers meet some kind of Masters or Ph D standard...none of which makes a bad teacher better, it just boosts their pay levels - what a waste of resources all around.I am a high school teacher in California, and believe me, I am not doing this for the paycheck or the benefits. I am an Air force Veteran. I was an operating room tech while serving. If I would have become certified as a civilian, I would be earning much more money as an OR nurse than I am earning as a teacher. I knew I wanted to be a teacher since I was 9 years old, when I began tutoring Spanish speaking students (immigrant children) during my lunch hour and after school. I did this voluntarily and I loved it. I work so many extra unpaid hours per week. I arrive to work an hour early everyday, in order to grade papers, enter grades, etc. I stay after hours every day (at least an hour and a half), in order to help students catch up on missed work due to absence, or to give extra help when they are having trouble with an assignment. I also call parents after school to inform them of their students' progress or problems. I average at least 4 -6 hours per week for lesson planning, lesson improvements, etc. (usually on the weekends) I dont have to do all this. There are some teachers out there who do the bare minimum and who do not care. But most of the teachers I know, really do care and really do put in A LOT of extra unpaid hours, in order to educate the students the best they can. I earn an ok living, but it is not by any means a wealthy salary. The cost of living in CA is high, and if I did not have a two income family, I would not be able to afford my modest 1480 sq ft home, nor my 2009 Hyundai Sonata. No, I am not living large, as some of you have been brainwashed to think. We are not asking to be rich, just not to be poor. Most of the teachers I've known, who are not in two income households, work multiple jobs. Part time during the school year - in retail, at SAT prep schools, tutoring, etc. Even those with two incomes work summer jobs and odd jobs during the school year. This, in addition to the prep work and the at home work that teaching requires.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Feb 23, 2011 21:13:53 GMT -5
So, personally, I would like to see teacher salaries and benefits cut...I prefer getting people in there that are passionate about teaching, not their paychecks, benefits, and steel-armored "tenure." And to make it more affordable I would fight for not having teachers meet some kind of Masters or Ph D standard...none of which makes a bad teacher better, it just boosts their pay levels - what a waste of resources all around.I am a high school teacher in California, and believe me, I am not doing this for the paycheck or the benefits. I am an Air force Veteran. I was an operating room tech while serving. If I would have become certified as a civilian, I would be earning much more money as an OR nurse than I am earning as a teacher. I knew I wanted to be a teacher since I was 9 years old, when I began tutoring Spanish speaking students (immigrant children) during my lunch hour and after school. I did this voluntarily and I loved it. I work so many extra unpaid hours per week. I arrive to work an hour early everyday, in order to grade papers, enter grades, etc. I stay after hours every day (at least an hour and a half), in order to help students catch up on missed work due to absence, or to give extra help when they are having trouble with an assignment. I also call parents after school to inform them of their students' progress or problems. I average at least 4 -6 hours per week for lesson planning, lesson improvements, etc. (usually on the weekends) I dont have to do all this. There are some teachers out there who do the bare minimum and who do not care. But most of the teachers I know, really do care and really do put in A LOT of extra unpaid hours, in order to educate the students the best they can. I earn an ok living, but it is not by any means a wealthy salary. The cost of living in CA is high, and if I did not have a two income family, I would not be able to afford my modest 1480 sq ft home, nor my 2009 Hyundai Sonata. No, I am not living large, as some of you have been brainwashed to think. We are not asking to be rich, just not to be poor. Most of the teachers I've known, who are not in two income households, work multiple jobs. Part time during the school year - in retail, at SAT prep schools, tutoring, etc. Even those with two incomes work summer jobs and odd jobs during the school year. This, in addition to the prep work and the at home work that teaching requires. You are right. My twin sister is a high school counselor, (teacher salary with a stipend) She does not have a two income household, therefore, she teaches 3 nights per week in a high school academic lab (for students who need to make up failed classes) Her day starts at 7:30 to 3:00, and her night job starts at 3:00 to 7:00 Mon-Wed, and Thurs. nights. She does this in order to survive. She does not live a lavish lifestyle, nor is she rich by any means.
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Post by marjar on Feb 23, 2011 21:22:26 GMT -5
Most of the teachers I've known, who are not in two income households, work multiple jobs. Part time during the school year - in retail, at SAT prep schools, tutoring, etc. Even those with two incomes work summer jobs and odd jobs during the school year. This, in addition to the prep work and the at home work that teaching requires. You are right. My twin sister is a high school counselor, (teacher salary with a stipend) She does not have a two income household, therefore, she teaches 3 nights per week in a high school academic lab (for students who need to make up failed classes) Her day starts at 7:30 to 3:00, and her night job starts at 3:00 to 7:00 Mon-Wed, and Thurs. nights. She does this in order to survive. She does not live a lavish lifestyle, nor is she rich by any means. I'm one of those who think teachers are under paid, in general. Even those with a passion for teaching have to face the reality of supporting themselves and their families. If seen many excellent teachers find work in other fields because they were more lucrative than teaching. Reality time. How do we attract and keep stellar teachers when the pay is a pittance compared to what they can earn in other sectors?
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