swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Dec 26, 2013 12:50:53 GMT -5
::They happen to be large. But if that isn't verboten per the local codes, they are within their rights. Ditto on the neutering. end of story. :: Local codes speak to law, not to stupidity. It's stupid to own a dog you wouldn't be able to physically restrain while walking (assuming you're going to walk it out in public). Every dog I've had, I would have been unable to control if s/he decided to pull away and attack. But, they were all trained and treated as lap dogs, so they were very gentle. Ive had a lab/shepherd mix, a husky, and a Newfoundland/lab mix.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:53:13 GMT -5
the fact that they are out walking their dogs on a regular basis is a very good sign. They are mentally and physically exercising their dogs as opposed to just letting them run out in the back yard to do their business. regular walks help keep a dog balanced and better behaved. Again, you are not reading my posts. I have never posted they are walking them on a regular basis.
Can I just stipulate that I fully understand that you believe these dogs are in no way a threat and release you from needing to post anything else since you clearly are reacting to your perceptions and not the actual fact set?
um, I AM READING YOUR POSTS. you said "i don't think they are pit bulls" and i said "they are definitely not because of the info you posted. I am trying to help put your mind at ease... I have done a lot of work with dogs, volunteer with rescues etc and generally have a lot of experience with dog behavior... but if you are only interested in people posting to fuel your anxiety them I'll happily leave the thread, because that is unproductive and rather foolish. this is a bit pot calling the kettle black: "you clearly are reacting to your perceptions and not the actual fact set".
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:54:57 GMT -5
it was a rhetorical question. I simply asked milee the question about the st. bernard to find out if she was worried about the size of the dog... or did the worry stem from the breed. And again, if you'd read my posts you'd know that I have owned and loved both big dogs and dogs that (probably) had pit bull in them. So neither size nor breed is by itself enough to cause worry.
I understand your position here - the dogs are harmless and I should not worry. You can stop posting random support of pit bulls.
wtf does this post have to do with pit bulls?? I can't legitimately ask a question? You're reading a lot of negativity into my posts that isn't there.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Dec 26, 2013 12:55:20 GMT -5
it was a rhetorical question. I simply asked milee the question about the st. bernard to find out if she was worried about the size of the dog... or did the worry stem from the breed. And again, if you'd read my posts you'd know that I have owned and loved both big dogs and dogs that (probably) had pit bull in them. So neither size nor breed is by itself enough to cause worry.
I understand your position here - the dogs are harmless and I should not worry. You can stop posting random support of pit bulls.
I have skipped around a bit, so excuse me if you posted an actual "fact set" that WAS a reason to cause worry. But it seems that the your chief concern is that you believe to have seen ill intent in the eyes of a dog that otherwise showed exactly zero signs of aggression? And you're upset because not everyone agrees that is a good reason?
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 12:55:22 GMT -5
Again, you are not reading my posts. I have never posted they are walking them on a regular basis.
Can I just stipulate that I fully understand that you believe these dogs are in no way a threat and release you from needing to post anything else since you clearly are reacting to your perceptions and not the actual fact set?
um, I AM READING YOUR POSTS. you said "i don't think they are pit bulls" and i said "they are definitely not because of the info you posted. I am trying to help put your mind at ease... I have done a lot of work with dogs, volunteer with rescues etc and generally have a lot of experience with dog behavior... but if you are only interested in people posting to fuel your anxiety them I'll happily leave the thread, because that is unproductive and rather foolish. this is a bit pot calling the kettle black: "you clearly are reacting to your perceptions and not the actual fact set". You are an advocate for pit bulls. Thank you for your work - it's good.
But I'm not looking for that type of (sorry to call it a spade) biased input.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:57:53 GMT -5
um, I AM READING YOUR POSTS. you said "i don't think they are pit bulls" and i said "they are definitely not because of the info you posted. I am trying to help put your mind at ease... I have done a lot of work with dogs, volunteer with rescues etc and generally have a lot of experience with dog behavior... but if you are only interested in people posting to fuel your anxiety them I'll happily leave the thread, because that is unproductive and rather foolish. this is a bit pot calling the kettle black: "you clearly are reacting to your perceptions and not the actual fact set". You are an advocate for pit bulls. Thank you for your work - it's good.
But I'm not looking for that type of (sorry to call it a spade) biased input.
I'm an advocate for pit bulls... who knew?!?! shall i freak out now because you aren't "reading my posts"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 12:58:56 GMT -5
You are an advocate for pit bulls. Thank you for your work - it's good.
But I'm not looking for that type of (sorry to call it a spade) biased input.
I'm an advocate for pit bulls... who knew?!?! shall i freak out now because you aren't "reading my posts" Yes. Please rip open your blouse in your rage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 13:01:50 GMT -5
If milee was a person who in general disliked or feared dogs, I might give less attention to her reaction to this particular dog and try to assure her about the benefits of training/exercise and likelihood that all is well. Milee in general is not an alarmist. She does not have a fear of dogs in general. She is not prone to over protectiveness. She described a visceral reaction to the look this particular dog gave her son... I think that is something worth paying attention to...
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Dec 26, 2013 13:12:08 GMT -5
Just curious. Let's say you were taking your kids to a park and there was a big strong man sitting on a bench.
Staring at your kids. Looking them up and down and not taking his eyes off of them.
Would you leave them alone or would you make sure you stuck around to keep an eye on them?
After all, the chances of him harming your children are MUCH much less than that of them getting hit by a car.
Do I have it right?
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Dec 26, 2013 13:14:19 GMT -5
Just curious. Let's say you were taking your kids to a park and there was a big strong man sitting on a bench. Staring at your kids. Looking them up and down and not taking his eyes off of them. Would you leave them alone or would you make sure you stuck around to keep an eye on them? After all, the chances of him harming your children are MUCH much less than that of them getting hit by a car. Do I have it right? Is he on a leash? If so, he's harmless.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Dec 26, 2013 13:14:40 GMT -5
Reading this, it seems to know that your uneasiness is coming from all of the "don't knows" you have. You don't know what kind of dog it is, you don't know how to talk to these people, you don't what they do with the dogs, you don't know if they are breeders, they are new and you don't know how that will change your neighborhood, you don't know, your don't know, you don't know. And not knowing is making it a lost worse. From everything you have described I think you are over reacting some. I also think that you may have had some unrealistic ideas about your neighborhood, and it would stay as the day you bought it. I'm wondering if some of your uneasiness about the dogs, is coming from the uneasiness that this couple doesn't fit the vision that you had of this neighborhood, from the dogs to not really socializing with the other people in the neighborhood, to not knowing them.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Dec 26, 2013 13:21:22 GMT -5
Just curious. Let's say you were taking your kids to a park and there was a big strong man sitting on a bench. Staring at your kids. Looking them up and down and not taking his eyes off of them. Would you leave them alone or would you make sure you stuck around to keep an eye on them? After all, the chances of him harming your children are MUCH much less than that of them getting hit by a car. Do I have it right? Is he on a leash? If so, he's harmless. No. He's tied to the bench by a piece of string that he could break with two fingers.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 26, 2013 13:31:33 GMT -5
Is he on a leash? If so, he's harmless. No. He's tied to the bench by a piece of string that he could break with two fingers. Is he tied around the neck as if by some sort of erotic asphyxiation.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Dec 26, 2013 13:41:45 GMT -5
No. He's tied to the bench by a piece of string that he could break with two fingers. Is he tied around the neck as if by some sort of erotic asphyxiation. In such case even more reason to ask the question, would you leave your kids alone with him?
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Dec 26, 2013 14:07:19 GMT -5
Is he tied around the neck as if by some sort of erotic asphyxiation. In such case even more reason to ask the question, would you leave your kids alone with him? Yes, because he'd be dead when he's done. Dead people are harmless. Unless they are in you water supply.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 14:17:26 GMT -5
Reading this, it seems to know that your uneasiness is coming from all of the "don't knows" you have. You don't know what kind of dog it is, you don't know how to talk to these people, you don't what they do with the dogs, you don't know if they are breeders, they are new and you don't know how that will change your neighborhood, you don't know, your don't know, you don't know. And not knowing is making it a lost worse. From everything you have described I think you are over reacting some. I also think that you may have had some unrealistic ideas about your neighborhood, and it would stay as the day you bought it. I'm wondering if some of your uneasiness about the dogs, is coming from the uneasiness that this couple doesn't fit the vision that you had of this neighborhood, from the dogs to not really socializing with the other people in the neighborhood, to not knowing them. That's a reasonable summation of many of the issues.
I hope that this is about concern with the dogs and not the couple themselves, but it's hard to know what deep biases one has because bias isn't rational. I will say that I do not think this is about the couple or the fact that they're new or not social. I described those things as a way to show that the situation is unknown (no history, no aquaintences to ask) rather than a way to describe new or quiet people as a problem.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 26, 2013 14:23:41 GMT -5
::I described those things as a way to show that the situation is unknown (no history, no aquaintences to ask) rather than a way to describe new or quiet people as a problem.::
They're probably new to the neighborhood because they have to move around like gypsies as their dogs eat children wherever they are living.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 14:30:35 GMT -5
::I described those things as a way to show that the situation is unknown (no history, no aquaintences to ask) rather than a way to describe new or quiet people as a problem.:: They're probably new to the neighborhood because they have to move around like gypsies as their dogs eat children wherever they are living.
It's funny you should mention that...
DH wondered if they're renting somewhere (not sure why he thinks they're necessarily renters other than we know most of the people who have recently purchased the few homes for sale) and if it might not be worth figuring out where they live and dropping a note to the landlord to make sure the LL knows about the dogs in the house. Not sure I want to do that, seems very invasive.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Dec 26, 2013 18:26:50 GMT -5
I don't really get what the big deal is... It is a big dig that has shown zero signs of aggression. So, he was looking at your kid? My dig will stare anyone down if he wants them to pet him. And if they don't after what he deems as "too long" them he barks. If startles a lot of people but that is just how he is. First thing is first, teach your child how to act around animals. It seems like no one teaches children not to stare at dogs, not to try and pet them on the top of the head, etc... Dogs don't attack for no reason unless there is something seriously wrong with them. And being large or having a prey drive isn't a reason. Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards I have to disagree. We are a society that allows people to raise dogs instead of letting well adjusted dogs raise dogs. Most dogs don't have a clue as to proper behavior with other dogs or with people, and as a society we encourage all kinds of bad behaviors from our pets. I had 4 dogs at one point. 1 adopted as a puppy, 2 adopted as adults, and 1 fostered from 3 weeks with her litter. 3 of my dogs have something 'seriously' wrong with them, which is just plain not having the proper socialization with other dogs that ideally they would have from birth to at least 16 weeks. I've done so much freaking work and training with my dogs to try to fix them, and while they are pretty good dogs by most peoples standards I set up every situation with the expectation that one of the dogs will bite (and none of them ever have bitten a person or broken skin of another dog). My dog does the quiet staring at things she is about to go after. Not even my dh who is a vet tech can tell the difference in her behavior, but so far I've never been wrong about it. Admittedly, after the last time I stopped giving her or dh the chance to prove me wrong. She is kenneled if she gives any inkling of that behavior. Milee--I would suggest talking to both boys about proper behavior around dogs. Maybe ask some friends who have good dogs to come over and practice (and tell the boys that its the dogs who need practice instead of them). I'd also encourage them to carry some kind of very loud emergency alert. My dog trainer ended up getting essentially a cattle prod after a clients dog (who had been perfect in every single training class) viciously attacked her dog during a session. She works with a lot of problem dogs and some of her clients started carrying them to use on their own dogs if necessary, but at the time she said that every potentially bad situation had been diverted just by pressing the alarm button.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 19:02:59 GMT -5
A lot of people seem to be saying that their dogs stare, but they stare because they are thinking this or that. You have no idea what your dog is thinking when it stares. People assign thoughts or feelings to their dog based on what they want the dog to be thinking or what seems cute. People do this a lot, and is what often leads to inappropriate action. "My dog growls becuase it wants attention. My dog stares because it wants to be played with. My dog barks because it's trying to be friends. Then when the dog attacks someone it is "my dog has always been so friendly". It can very well be that these actions are associated with positive, or at least non-aggressive, thoughts...but you actually have no idea because you do not read your dog's mind. The reality is that you have no idea whether a dog is staring at the child that just walked into your home because it wants some affection, a treat, or is thinking about ripping the child's throat out. You simply don't know, and to pretend you do know is dangerous to everyone around. Taking potentially aggressive indicators and brushing them aside as something else is what ends in tragedy. Milee - At some point you need to decide how much risk you're willing to take. It's somewhat like the thread about the family who got their kid a gun. They aren't doing anything illegal, but there are factors that could cause danger to your kid. It sounds like the real fear is that this is a big dog that's large enough it couldn't really be controlled by the person walking it. Not a lot you can do about that other than working with your kid about being safe. This is what I thought about what other posters were saying about why their dogs stared at certain people. Maybe the person the dog was staring at just didn't do the "wrong" thing at the time or maybe these aren't the same kind of stares I'm talking about. I didn't know what my dog was thinking when he would be still, focus and stare (no barking or growling), but I knew what behavior would follow if the person or animal came closer to us or didn't leave my yard. I had a 110lb bullmastiff at the same time I had the 55lb poodle. The bullmastiff was huge and and scary looking I guess, but I didn't have to watch her as closely as I had to watch the poodle. She was a trained cream puff, not aggressive and didn't do the staring thing. When I took the dogs places, I had more problems with adults than children. The bullmastiff would let anyone pet her, but I had to make her sit first or she'd start wiggling from delight and that could knock a small child down. Adults would try to pet the poodle anyway even after I'd tell them not to come closer because he'd bite. I heard "Oh, he won't bite me" countless times from adults. Just stupid! Then they'd act surpised when they'd get too close and he'd start growling and snarling. At least children had enough sense to listen when I stopped them from approaching the poodle. The poodle's previous owner had started protection training before I got him when he was only 10 months old. The staring is part of how they teach them to "watch" on command. I didn't continue the protection training, so I don't know if the behavior was learned or natural for him.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 19:41:36 GMT -5
Milee--I would suggest talking to both boys about proper behavior around dogs. Maybe ask some friends who have good dogs to come over and practice (and tell the boys that its the dogs who need practice instead of them). We dog sit for other people regularly. The dogs we sit for most often are a border collie/lab mix and a black lab. I think the black lab will be here for a few days this upcoming weekend, so we can do a refresher then.
The border collie/lab mix is a rescue dog and had some behavior issues when the owner first got him 3 years ago. For the first six months she had him, nobody got to see what he looked like because he was so terrified of strangers that he'd hide and bark whenever people came over. I was the first stranger to him/friend of hers that he ever came up to and he really likes me and the family (I introduced him to the boys as mine after he was comfy with me over several visits.) He behaves really well for me and the boys have also taught him some good manners - like sitting politely at a distance and waiting to be released from the sit before eating his dinner, but I keep a very close eye on him and do not ever leave him alone with the boys. The few times I've ever sensed that he might be afraid, I make sure we give him space and a safe place; the few times I've sensed he might be asserting any aggressive or dominant behavior - like being possessive over a toy - I work with him to reinforce that I am the leader and every kid is higher in the family pack than he is. He fits well in our family and behaves, but we're still careful with him and make sure to always keep his needs and the family needs in mind. The friend that owns him travels pretty regularly so I'm sure he'll be over sometime in the next month or two and we can practice with him.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 19:44:49 GMT -5
I'd also encourage them to carry some kind of very loud emergency alert. My dog trainer ended up getting essentially a cattle prod after a clients dog (who had been perfect in every single training class) viciously attacked her dog during a session. She works with a lot of problem dogs and some of her clients started carrying them to use on their own dogs if necessary, but at the time she said that every potentially bad situation had been diverted just by pressing the alarm button. Hm, not sure about that one. I'm thinking giving a 9 year old boy a cattle prod to carry around might cause a whole new set of issues.
I'll talk to DH and see what type of alert he thinks might work. We have some whistles for our PFDs, but the boys will probably just lose them within a few days - after driving us all nuts with them first.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Dec 26, 2013 19:55:09 GMT -5
I'd also encourage them to carry some kind of very loud emergency alert. My dog trainer ended up getting essentially a cattle prod after a clients dog (who had been perfect in every single training class) viciously attacked her dog during a session. She works with a lot of problem dogs and some of her clients started carrying them to use on their own dogs if necessary, but at the time she said that every potentially bad situation had been diverted just by pressing the alarm button. Hm, not sure about that one. I'm thinking giving a 9 year old boy a cattle prod to carry around might cause a whole new set of issues.
I'll talk to DH and see what type of alert he thinks might work. We have some whistles for our PFDs, but the boys will probably just lose them within a few days - after driving us all nuts with them first.
Oh-I definitely didn't mean to give the boys the cattle prod. just something that would cause a loud noise and likely distract a dog if they did attract. The tricky part is explaining its not a toy. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 20:08:24 GMT -5
While i don't care for judging dogs based on their looks, i understand that something about these dogs or maybe the owners or a combination made you feel uneasy. As long as you don't DO something irrational about these fears regarding the dogs (like shooting them with no reason, calling animal control for no reason, etc), i think your fears are normal. I have all kinds of fears about my son, rational or irrational. I see it as part of being a parent It is up to you to make sure your kids are safe. You cannot expect everyone around you to alter their lives for that and i am not saying you do, to me if you expected that then it would be irrational. The thing is there are probably much worse predators out there than a dog who sounds pretty well behaved that may one day escape and hunt down your son while he is riding his bike. And i totally know when my one dog stares that it is because she wants my food as she follows the food with her eyes from my plate into my mouth
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Dec 26, 2013 21:51:49 GMT -5
I'm still laughing at the assumption that they're renters and contacting the landlord because they were walking their well mannered dogs on leashes. Oh the horror! There goes the neighborhood! Well, they are foreign, you know? So it stands to reason that they are renters, and that their dogs are just faking the whole purebred, well cared for, polite walking on a leash thing. Are the dogs foreign too?? I really should have gotten the American Labrador - I got the English model and she's a bitch on the leash. She is 70 strong pounds of toddler-toppling doofus.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Dec 26, 2013 21:55:57 GMT -5
They're probably Russian spies and the dogs are their "enforcers".... One wrong move and your kid is lunch! That dog was thinking which marinade would work best.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 26, 2013 21:56:09 GMT -5
Well, they are foreign, you know? So it stands to reason that they are renters, and that their dogs are just faking the whole purebred, well cared for, polite walking on a leash thing. Are the dogs foreign too?? I really should have gotten the American Labrador - I got the English model and she's a bitch on the leash. She is 70 strong pounds of toddler-toppling doofus.
English Lab? the real question is how are her teeth? She's got some serious doggy breath.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 21:56:59 GMT -5
I'm still laughing at the assumption that they're renters and contacting the landlord because they were walking their well mannered dogs on leashes. Oh the horror! There goes the neighborhood! It may be different in your area, but around here none of the landlords will rent to people with pit bulls or any of the dogs on the insurers list of dogs that are considered high risk. The high risk dog list varies slightly by insurer but every single one of them lists pit bulls and pit bull types on their list. If you are a renter with a pit type dog, you either lie about it, sneak the dog in or end up in slum housing. The closest slum housing is not a close walk, so I think he's assuming that they live close by and that they've snuck the dogs into to the rental home.
If you want to read into the posts that there is "horror" or drama, that seems odd to me since I think I've made an effort to be fair and balanced in my description and reaction. But then again, you're also concluding the dogs were well-mannered, when I did not mention any such thing. We may have different standards if you conclude that a note of "no obvious signs of aggression" noted in a brief observation equals well-mannered.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 26, 2013 21:57:25 GMT -5
I'm still laughing at the assumption that they're renters and contacting the landlord because they were walking their well mannered dogs on leashes. Oh the horror! There goes the neighborhood! Well, they are foreign, you know? So it stands to reason that they are renters, and that their dogs are just faking the whole purebred, well cared for, polite walking on a leash thing. Are the dogs foreign too?? I really should have gotten the American Labrador - I got the English model and she's a bitch on the leash. She is 70 strong pounds of toddler-toppling doofus.
I thought the english labs were the smaller ones and the american ones were the ones with the big block head and really muscular? No?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 21:57:30 GMT -5
The neighbor boy got bit in the face by his grandmothers dog. Never gave her any indication of propensity to ... But the female was in heat and being held in a different location and boy was unluckily in the middle when the male dog got a break and ran for the female...
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