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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 26, 2013 11:30:17 GMT -5
- The male at least is too large to be restrained by any normal human, should he decide to misbehave. It may be possible for a large man to restrain one of the small females, but I doubt that the woman walking them could restrain both females at one time. - So I am completely dependent on the faith that these are well-disposed dogs that have not been abused or trained for fighting and will behave their owners and will not be tempted by the stimuli of a child on a bike (very common for many breeds of dogs to be interested in people on bikes).
To be honest, you are dependent upon ANY dog that you encounter having these qualities, not just these big ones. It does not take a large dog to pull their owner off balance and take off.
Not only that, you ARE dependent upon ANY dog being treated well and trained not to attack. Hell, I used to ride my bike in a development where there were homeowners who had 3 weimeraners roaming the property. Every single time I rode past the property, all 3 dogs were at the edge of the electric fence barking their fool heads off and showing their teeth. As the area was rather exclusive, there was absolutely no doubt in my mind that those dogs were used as defensive dogs for the home owners. They may have been all talk and no action, I have no idea. But I was not going to avoid my route just because of those dogs.
Funny thing, my parents owned a weimeraner and Paige was an absolute slug. But if you were someone coming up to the door, she would bark her fool head off until someone calmed her down.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 26, 2013 11:33:02 GMT -5
A lot of people seem to be saying that their dogs stare, but they stare because they are thinking this or that.
You have no idea what your dog is thinking when it stares. People assign thoughts or feelings to their dog based on what they want the dog to be thinking or what seems cute. People do this a lot, and is what often leads to inappropriate action. "My dog growls becuase it wants attention. My dog stares because it wants to be played with. My dog barks because it's trying to be friends. Then when the dog attacks someone it is "my dog has always been so friendly".
It can very well be that these actions are associated with positive, or at least non-aggressive, thoughts...but you actually have no idea because you do not read your dog's mind.
The reality is that you have no idea whether a dog is staring at the child that just walked into your home because it wants some affection, a treat, or is thinking about ripping the child's throat out. You simply don't know, and to pretend you do know is dangerous to everyone around. Taking potentially aggressive indicators and brushing them aside as something else is what ends in tragedy.
Milee - At some point you need to decide how much risk you're willing to take. It's somewhat like the thread about the family who got their kid a gun. They aren't doing anything illegal, but there are factors that could cause danger to your kid. It sounds like the real fear is that this is a big dog that's large enough it couldn't really be controlled by the person walking it. Not a lot you can do about that other than working with your kid about being safe.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 26, 2013 11:34:35 GMT -5
now this I do agree with.....there is absolutely no excuse for not spaying/neutering a dog.
Unless you happen to be a breeder. And there ARE ethical breeders out there who make sure that all of their animals are well cared for.
My mom used to breed Chartreux, and she had a male stud. Her female threw 4 litters and every single kitten was tracked. My mom told any buyer that if it came to a point where they could no longer take care of the cat, she would buy it back. Out of about 20 kittens, she only got one of them back. All kittens were sold as pets, none were left unneutered/spayed, other than her breeding couple. She later sold the male stud to another breeder when she got out of the business.
She also used to get Christmas cards from all the families who got her cats, up until the last one died.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 11:36:44 GMT -5
To be honest, you are dependent upon ANY dog that you encounter having these qualities, not just these big ones. It does not take a large dog to pull their owner off balance and take off. Not only that, you ARE dependent upon ANY dog being treated well and trained not to attack. Yeah, but with any other dog in the neighborhood except maybe the big Husky, I'm pretty sure I or a nearby adult could pry the dog off my kid before it ended in tragedy. Not to sound too cold and calculating, but I'm not way too freaked out about my little guy getting a bite (not that I want that to happen, I'm just saying that wouldn't be the end of the world), I'm concerned about the possibility of a potentially fatal incident.
Not at all minimizing dog bites - they're awful. I'm just saying that if that were the main worry here I wouldn't have posted since it wouldn't rise to big concern level and would be lumped in with normal type worries.
There is no way I - or even three or four people - could pry just the big male off my kid or even defend myself. Add in the two females, should they all gang up in a pack, and the situation could be incredibly dangerous.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 26, 2013 11:39:08 GMT -5
But I agree that I am more leery of a strange pit than a Lhasa apso. I can boot the Lhasa away. The pit, not so much. Id be a little leery of a large dog staring my kid down. It could be hunting behavior. But as long as he's on a leash and under control, I'm good. With a dog this strength and size, a leash is for decorative purposes only. "Under control" is at the dog's discretion. No way could anyone stop this dog from doing something he wanted to do.
I had one of those. 150 pounds. Good thing she was docile.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Dec 26, 2013 11:48:38 GMT -5
pitbullregistry.com/PitBull%20History.htm This site (plus several others I've checked) don't exactly engender the image of a "nanny dog". If my sources are wrong please let me know as I'd like to be clear as to why a nanny dog would need to have very powerful jaws and body. I'm not anti any dog, but the simple facts are some dogs were specifically bred to be able to clamp down and not.let.go until the target is dead. It does not make the dog evil, it's simply what the breed was designed to do over hundreds (if not thousands) of years of focused genetic efforts. That means if this breed gets its jaws on a kid, there's really no contest. Does that mean the dogs should not exist? Of course not, but I think it's very prudent to excercise extra caution when a small child has the potential to be exposed to one. you do realize that a pit bull is NOT a specific breed, right? I do, the term pit bull is (as you know I'm sure) used to commonly describe dogs with this type of jaw and body build. In general, every dog that has a strong body and excessively strong jaws that I know of were not bred to heard sheep or be guard dogs. They were bred to be fighting dogs with the body and muscleture to match. Nothing wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with showing extra care when such dogs are around.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Dec 26, 2013 11:51:45 GMT -5
Sooooo, you want your neighborhood to ban large dogs? Or not allow people to own more than one large dog? I get where you may be a little worried, but there's not much you can do about it other than teach your kids common sense around animals.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 12:05:00 GMT -5
Sooooo, you want your neighborhood to ban large dogs? Or not allow people to own more than one large dog? No, I didn't suggest any of those things.
If it were up to me, I think a reasonably safe compromise would be that if this couple wants to own these dogs, they should make sure to train them properly and keep them at home in secure areas. They need to recognize that one person cannot control the large male and that by walking them in a pack, they're both increasing the chance of an adverse event while at the same time decreasing their chance to control the dogs. If they would like to walk the dogs, it would be safer if both owners together walked each individual dog, leaving the other dogs at home and realizing that even with two owners they might not be able to control the dog in certain situations.
But I'm not proposing any of those things, just describing what I'd like.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:08:36 GMT -5
To be honest, you are dependent upon ANY dog that you encounter having these qualities, not just these big ones. It does not take a large dog to pull their owner off balance and take off. Not only that, you ARE dependent upon ANY dog being treated well and trained not to attack. Yeah, but with any other dog in the neighborhood except maybe the big Husky, I'm pretty sure I or a nearby adult could pry the dog off my kid before it ended in tragedy. Not to sound too cold and calculating, but I'm not way too freaked out about my little guy getting a bite (not that I want that to happen, I'm just saying that wouldn't be the end of the world), I'm freaked out at the possibility of a potentially fatal incident.
Not at all minimizing dog bites - they're awful. I'm just saying that if that were the main worry here I wouldn't have posted since it wouldn't rise to big concern level and would be lumped in with normal type worries.
There is no way I - or even three or four people - could pry just the big male off my kid or even defend myself. Add in the two females, should they all gang up in a pack, and the situation could be incredibly dangerous.
if this dog is so large, it is absolutely not a pit bull terrier. They are medium sized dogs that don't weigh more than 60 or 70 lbs. If we're talking about a mastiff that is 100+ lbs... those are not typically known for attacking.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 12:10:05 GMT -5
and - what exactly do you want? As I said in both the title and the OP, this is a "vent". I fully realize that what I would like is not realistic and I'm just complaining a bit. Pretty sure that's what a vent is. And not sure how this relates to "what I wanted for christmas", i don't think the neighbors were offering up their lives as part of your christmasscape.....I think they were just living for themselves. They were part of my Christmas day experience. Not their fault, just what it is.Other than that - If this couple is within the law - there really isn't anything else to be done. Again, see "vent." Venting here. Understand it's not going to result in change.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:14:18 GMT -5
pitbullregistry.com/PitBull%20History.htm This site (plus several others I've checked) don't exactly engender the image of a "nanny dog". If my sources are wrong please let me know as I'd like to be clear as to why a nanny dog would need to have very powerful jaws and body. I'm not anti any dog, but the simple facts are some dogs were specifically bred to be able to clamp down and not.let.go until the target is dead. It does not make the dog evil, it's simply what the breed was designed to do over hundreds (if not thousands) of years of focused genetic efforts. That means if this breed gets its jaws on a kid, there's really no contest. Does that mean the dogs should not exist? Of course not, but I think it's very prudent to excercise extra caution when a small child has the potential to be exposed to one. you do realize that a pit bull is NOT a specific breed, right? actually it is. American Pit Bull Terrier. however people seem to refer to "pit bulls" as just about anything with some bully in their breeding- anything from an american bulldog to a boston terrier.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 12:16:03 GMT -5
if this dog is so large, it is absolutely not a pit bull terrier. They are medium sized dogs that don't weigh more than 60 or 70 lbs. You are so zealous in your need to defend pit bulls that you are not reading my posts. I have already stated that these are not pit bulls.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:16:25 GMT -5
Sooooo, you want your neighborhood to ban large dogs? Or not allow people to own more than one large dog? No, I didn't suggest any of those things.
If it were up to me, I think a reasonably safe compromise would be that if this couple wants to own these dogs, they should make sure to train them properly and keep them at home in secure areas. They need to recognize that one person cannot control the large male and that by walking them in a pack, they're both increasing the chance of an adverse event while at the same time decreasing their chance to control the dogs. If they would like to walk the dogs, it would be safer if both owners together walked each individual dog, leaving the other dogs at home and realizing that even with two owners they might not be able to control the dog in certain situations.
But I'm not proposing any of those things, just describing what I'd like.
would you have the same concern if these were St. Bernards?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 26, 2013 12:18:08 GMT -5
::The best way to keep the dogs under control is to have them properly exercised, and to also to walk them all together so that they all know they are lower status pack members and that the couple are in charge.::
While I agree with this part, the person walking them needs to be physically able to restrain them if the worst should happen. And that's the part that seems to have Milee most worried...that if something happened, the person walking them doesn't appear even close to able to restrain them if needed.
::To be honest, you are dependent upon ANY dog that you encounter having these qualities, not just these big ones. It does not take a large dog to pull their owner off balance and take off.::
If you can't stop your dog from taking off, you shouldn't own that dog.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 12:18:11 GMT -5
you do realize that a pit bull is NOT a specific breed, right? actually it is. American Pit Bull Terrier. however people seem to refer to "pit bulls" as just about anything with some bully in their breeding- anything from an american bulldog to a boston terrier. yes, American Pit Bull Terrier is a breed....what people refer to as pit bulls are not the purebred American Pit Bull Terrier but a mix of up to 5 dogs. In addition, most people can't pick out a pit bull from a line-up, which just goes to show, that most people mistakenly label dogs based on how they think they look rather than evaluating them for their temperment.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 26, 2013 12:19:28 GMT -5
::would you have the same concern if these were St. Bernards? ::
Are St Bernards a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks? Just because they aren't actually pit bulls doesn't mean they aren't more predisposed to attacking.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 12:21:35 GMT -5
::would you have the same concern if these were St. Bernards? :: Are St Bernards a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks? Just because they aren't actually pit bulls doesn't mean they aren't more predisposed to attacking. so if you're outside and you see 2 St. Bernards, how do you know they weren't trained to attack? just because they're walking nicely on a leash with their owners and not growling or snapping?
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 12:25:03 GMT -5
would you have the same concern if these were St. Bernards? I don't know. The logical side of me wants to say "yes", but the parent side of me says "maybe not". Part of my issue here is that the reaction was not just logical but visceral. I'm not afraid of dogs but watching this dog watch my kid made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
I also don't know if I'd have the same concern if the couple had spoken English so we could have talked to them and gotten a feeling for what type of dog owners they are.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 26, 2013 12:26:27 GMT -5
::would you have the same concern if these were St. Bernards? :: Are St Bernards a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks? Just because they aren't actually pit bulls doesn't mean they aren't more predisposed to attacking. so if you're outside and you see 2 St. Bernards, how do you know they weren't trained to attack? just because they're walking nicely on a leash with their owners and not growling or snapping? I don't. But Milee doesn't seem concerned that they are somehow trained to kill. She's concerned that their size and breed makes them both predisposed to being more likely to attack and unable to be controlled. You're creating a totally different scenario in adding in assumptions that dogs are specifically trained to attack. There's an underlying assumption that she is concerned even if the owners are completely fine in terms of the training of their dogs. We're assuming really a best case scenario (dogs are well trained, not a history of violence, not specifically trained to kill children, walked on a leash that isn't frayed or weak, etc), and using that best case scenario to show that there are still things beyond control.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 26, 2013 12:30:11 GMT -5
::They happen to be large. But if that isn't verboten per the local codes, they are within their rights. Ditto on the neutering. end of story. ::
Local codes speak to law, not to stupidity. It's stupid to own a dog you wouldn't be able to physically restrain while walking (assuming you're going to walk it out in public).
::we have a great dane somewhere in the neighborhood, that I've seen walked on one or two occasions.
Now - that's big!::
Big, but in a tall way. Not in a massive ball of uncontrollable muscle way. Not all big is equal.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:31:34 GMT -5
::would you have the same concern if these were St. Bernards? :: Are St Bernards a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks? Just because they aren't actually pit bulls doesn't mean they aren't more predisposed to attacking. Are the dogs that milee saw a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks?
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:36:55 GMT -5
. ::we have a great dane somewhere in the neighborhood, that I've seen walked on one or two occasions. Now - that's big!:: Big, but in a tall way. Not in a massive ball of uncontrollable muscle way. Not all big is equal. um a great dane is very muscular and powerful dog and they weigh a LOT. My neighbors growing up had one that was 190 pounds of solid muscle.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 12:37:04 GMT -5
::would you have the same concern if these were St. Bernards? :: Are St Bernards a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks? Just because they aren't actually pit bulls doesn't mean they aren't more predisposed to attacking. Are the dogs that milee saw a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks? I don't know. They appear to be something like the Bandogs or Cane Corsos, which would be included in the "Molosser" type dogs which are grouped in with pit bulls for the statistics I posted earlier. But there's no way to know. Again, the owners don't speak English and the dogs weren't wearing labels.
If you asked me to guess, they are of the pit bull/Bandog/Cane Corso/Presa Canario type breeds that are unfortunately known for being bred for fighting, but again this is a guess.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 26, 2013 12:39:06 GMT -5
::would you have the same concern if these were St. Bernards? :: Are St Bernards a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks? Just because they aren't actually pit bulls doesn't mean they aren't more predisposed to attacking. Are the dogs that milee saw a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks? Are they actually? I don't know because I don't know what they actually are. Milee thinks they look like one of a few large molesser breeds which are responsible for a high number of vicious attacks in comparison to other dogs. Maybe it's a St Bernard which is a large molesser breed but not on the list of being more responsible for attacks and the owner just shaved all the hair off...but likely not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 12:39:21 GMT -5
Part of my issue here is that the reaction was not just logical but visceral. I'm not afraid of dogs but watching this dog watch my kid made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
I think we are meant to pay attention to these things. Our bodies often react to danger before our minds catch up... It doesn't mean an attack is imminent from the dogs, but I would certainly be examining the situation closely and taking actions within my power.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:40:25 GMT -5
would you have the same concern if these were St. Bernards? I don't know. The logical side of me wants to say "yes", but the parent side of me says "maybe not". Part of my issue here is that the reaction was not just logical but visceral. I'm not afraid of dogs but watching this dog watch my kid made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
I also don't know if I'd have the same concern if the couple had spoken English so we could have talked to them and gotten a feeling for what type of dog owners they are.
the fact that they are out walking their dogs on a regular basis is a very good sign. They are mentally and physically exercising their dogs as opposed to just letting them run out in the back yard to do their business. regular walks help keep a dog balanced and better behaved.
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Cass
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Post by Cass on Dec 26, 2013 12:45:48 GMT -5
I have a Dane and a Doberman, collectively 200 pounds of dog. They like to eat, sleep, play, meet new people and chase cats and squirrels.
Mauling small children doesn't even maybe make the list.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 12:45:56 GMT -5
the fact that they are out walking their dogs on a regular basis is a very good sign. They are mentally and physically exercising their dogs as opposed to just letting them run out in the back yard to do their business. regular walks help keep a dog balanced and better behaved. Again, you are not reading my posts. I have never posted they are walking them on a regular basis.
Can I just stipulate that I fully understand that you believe these dogs are in no way a threat and release you from needing to post anything else since you clearly are reacting to your perceptions and not the actual fact set?
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Dec 26, 2013 12:46:59 GMT -5
Are the dogs that milee saw a breed with a high level of vicious dog attacks? Are they actually? I don't know because I don't know what they actually are. Milee thinks they look like one of a few large molesser breeds which are responsible for a high number of vicious attacks in comparison to other dogs. Maybe it's a St Bernard which is a large molesser breed but not on the list of being more responsible for attacks and the owner just shaved all the hair off...but likely not. it was a rhetorical question. I simply asked milee the question about the st. bernard to find out if she was worried about the size of the dog... or did the worry stem from the breed.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 26, 2013 12:49:06 GMT -5
Are they actually? I don't know because I don't know what they actually are. Milee thinks they look like one of a few large molesser breeds which are responsible for a high number of vicious attacks in comparison to other dogs. Maybe it's a St Bernard which is a large molesser breed but not on the list of being more responsible for attacks and the owner just shaved all the hair off...but likely not. it was a rhetorical question. I simply asked milee the question about the st. bernard to find out if she was worried about the size of the dog... or did the worry stem from the breed. And again, if you'd read my posts you'd know that I have owned and loved both big dogs and dogs that (probably) had pit bull in them. So neither size nor breed is by itself enough to cause worry.
I understand your position here - the dogs are harmless and I should not worry. You can stop posting random support of pit bulls.
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