Should/Would YOU choose God over your family if necessary?

[Tennesseer]

Nov 12, 2013 23:01:57 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Nov 12, 2013 22:31:11 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

If a family member was gay (brother, sister, child, cousin, aunt/uncle) - that is not a crime - and they're still the loving person I knew and still know and love.

But I have my own moral compass. If someone in my family (or a friend) committed a horrific crime (in the LEGAL sense - not what some book decided was horrific or a sin) -

OK, I can't bold your posts bc they are already so very bright, but wanted to point out that what you call "some book" used to be very much THE law for many and still is.

So, it's always interesting to me to see how people so easily dismiss religious "laws", but at the same time willing to stand up for secular legal ones.  

We've had numerous discussions on here where posters' entire argument was "well, it's ILLEGAL". 

Well, for some people, doing something that is prohibited is in their religious "law book" is just as illegal.

Why not stand up for secular laws ìn secular countries?

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I was raised in a Protestant household - and married a man raised and following the RC religion. His church's "laws" on what was right, moral or wrong differed from mine.

That is why I follow to this day MY course - not what the "structured" church or a book says is right. It has nothing to do with whether or not I believe - I've seen the differences in religions and their laws - and how each interprets the Bible - even people/friends who are of other faiths other than the Christian one and learning about their "moral code" according to their belief/teachings and "laws" pertinent to them.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 19:39:56 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

I thought God taught us not to judge others?  Or do we get to pick which part of the bible we believe in when it suits us, ignoring all the rest of the stuff that contradicts it?

Would you stay away from a rapist? A murderer? An abuser? If so, why? Would you not be 'judging' this behavior as wrong and stay away to protect yourself? Why would this be any different than 'judging' any other behavior? Or do we get to pick and choose when it suits us?

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 19:35:36 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  If you are only loving people when the are "good" or fulfilling your standard, you really are not loving them as God loved us.  God loved us to the point of the Cross and even forgiving us as we put Him to death.

Loving someone and accepting a certain behavior is two entirely different situations as can be proven by what you would be willing to put up with in your life. Would you allow your child (whom you love) to cuss you? Slap you? Or would you not demand that the behavior stop? 

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 19:40:04 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Cranberry I appreciated what you were saying in the other thread. I agree with your point that those that believe in a specific interpretation of the bible have to follow what it says. I am Christian in the sense that I like and believe Christ's teachings. Not so much with Paul. By my reading Paul almost completely contradicts Christ in so many areas and he does so claiming to be a disciple even though he never met Christ in life. So while I don't agree with what Virgil thinks is God's will, I do put God's will as I understand it over the popular choice. That has led me to distance myself from people who make choices I do not believe are moral.

Where are you getting this information from? All of the bible is for teaching and learning from. 

2 Timothy 3:16-17 
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work

1 Thessalonians 2:13 
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Joshua 1:8
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 20:08:23 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

First of all, being born gay is not a sin, nor immoral - it's BIOLOGICAL.

This has not been proven. And it is a sin and it is immoral, according to the bible.

The Bible also was not written by God - the book is not His words - it is just that - a book written by mere mortals - the stories of God that they've created; The chapters/verses also have been altered/amended more than a few times over the centuries. The first bibles were written & set down approx 3500 yrs ago. The language, words, interpretations have all changed over time to our present King James version.

This is not so. I suggest you do some unbiased research on the dead sea scrolls and you will be amazed at how very little was actually misinterpreted. Most of the things (and there are very few) were of little importance and did not change the meaning of the sentence and were mostly spelling eras.

There is no specific verse that addresses homosexuality as a sin - and it's NOT something that someone suddenly makes a conscious decision to become.

Leviticus 18:22 
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

1 Corinthians 6:9 
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Leviticus 20:13 
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Romans 1:26-27 
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Do you follow ALL the Ten Commandments strictly??

We are no longer under the Ten Commandments. Jesus fulfilled the law. 

Matthew 5:17 
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.


Matthew 22:36-40 
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

If you do, then I have to assume that you would "Honor the Sabbath to Keep it Holy" - and not take a job that involved working on your sabbath (7th day) of the week - traditionally Sunday's in most Christian religion, nor would you shop in stores on Sunday - or attend a sporting event.

Again, we are not under the ten commandments as Jesus himself showed:

Luke 6:1
On a Sabbath, while he was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked and ate some heads of grain, rubbing them in their hands.

Colossians 2:16 
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Matthew 12:11-12 
He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

"Thou Shalt Not Take the Lord's Name in Vain" - how many of you have blurted out "Oh for God's Sake or "Crissake" or "God Damn" - or "Jesus Christ!" - not in praise, but as a cuss?

'God' is not the name of the god in the bible. It is simply a title like president, queen, etc. Gods name is actually Jehovah.
Although, I do agree that cussing is wrong and not Christian-like.

Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Psalms 83:18
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 20:30:11 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Nov 12, 2013 19:39:56 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

I thought God taught us not to judge others?  Or do we get to pick which part of the bible we believe in when it suits us, ignoring all the rest of the stuff that contradicts it?

Actually we do. We kind of have to, parts of it contradict each other pretty severely. Really the bible is many people's stories on their relationship with God and what they feel they have learned that could help upcoming generations. It is the spiritual history of both individuals and societies. It contains lessons of what works well and what is really harmful to us. A lot of things in the bible take on a different significance when you learn who was talking to who at the time, why they were talking to them and what the culture was at the time.

The bible does not contradict itself. If it did I certainly wouldn't believe it! If you are so inclined, I suggest you read the following. It explains this situation far better than I ever could.

www.equip.org/perspectives/bible-contradictions-does-the-bible-contradict-itself/

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 19:47:28 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Nov 12, 2013 19:43:58 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

Jesus was God's son.

Some denominations teach the Trinity as One, Father, Son and Holy Ghost are just different manifestations of the same being.

Here's what the bible says on this subject: My comments will be in parenthesis.

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (Many have seen Jesus, have they not?)

Exodus 33:20
But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live. (Evidently God is too powerful to look upon! Again, many have seen Jesus though)

Luke 1:35 
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

John 3:16 
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 22:29:49 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

I will pose my same question again... though I am pretty sure that it won't be answered because no one with a similar belief system will EVER answer:

it is *YOU* that has decided that homosexuality is a sin worth punishing over other sins. Not God. 
If your child got a tattoo, would you treat them the same as if they told you they were gay? If they tell you a lie? if they have two tunics and do not give 1 to a person with none? If they know the right thing to do, but do nothing?
If your daughter had the crap beat out of her by her husband to the point where she was in the hospital, would you refuse to let her leave him and not acknowledge it if she left him and remarried. (Scripture does not accept spousal abuse as an acceptable reason to leave a marriage therefore remarrying would be adultery)

I have provided several scriptures that prove homosexuality is a sin in Gods eyes. Getting a tattoo is not considered a gross sin. And yes, there are degrees of sin. If this were not so then some sins would not have been punishable by death while others were not in the OT. It is lawful for one to divorce, regardless of what some religions teach. However, the only grounds for divorce..that will allow the other one to remarry is in the case of adultery.  
 
1 Corinthians 7:10-11 
To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.

Corinthians 7:15 
But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.

Matthew 5:32

But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.

Matthew 5:31-32 
“It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Why exactly have you deemed homosexuality to be a worse sin than those you commit every day?

See above. Also, I might add, any deliberate sin is sin. Period. 
 

And in the book of James says: whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 

So you have to be perfect... or you are guilty of ALL SIN. 

Yes, you are correct. However, God knows that flesh is weak and he knows that we will fail at times. The point is to NOT practice wrong doing. 

Matthew 26:41 
Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Romans 3:23 E
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

at any rate... the covenant of the old testament was replaced with the new testament. and the new testament says NADA regarding homosexuality

Romans 1:26-28
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

Romans 1:32 
Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them

 

[Shooby]

Nov 13, 2013 4:29:53 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Nov 12, 2013 19:35:36 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  If you are only loving people when the are "good" or fulfilling your standard, you really are not loving them as God loved us.  God loved us to the point of the Cross and even forgiving us as we put Him to death.

Loving someone and accepting a certain behavior is two entirely different situations as can be proven by what you would be willing to put up with in your life. Would you allow your child (whom you love) to cuss you? Slap you? Or would you not demand that the behavior stop? 

  I didn't say you loved or approved of the behavior.  If my child was cussing at me or tried to slap me, I would walk away and simply tell them if and when they want to engage in a respectful way, then we can.  If not, then no that isn't appropriate.  Loving your child doesn't mean approving of or putting a rubber stamp on everything they do.  Nor does it mean standing by and not calling them out when they are wrong either.  There is a balance between that and also between understanding that if they are an adult, they also have to make their own decisions on life as well.

[zibazinski]

Ive posted a few situations where I would have, painfully, separated myself from my child. I'm not going to rehash them.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 13, 2013 4:25:03 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Nov 12, 2013 19:39:56 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

I thought God taught us not to judge others?  Or do we get to pick which part of the bible we believe in when it suits us, ignoring all the rest of the stuff that contradicts it?

Would you stay away from a rapist? A murderer? An abuser? If so, why? Would you not be 'judging' this behavior as wrong and stay away to protect yourself? Why would this be any different than 'judging' any other behavior? Or do we get to pick and choose when it suits us?

In our secular country, a rapist, a murderer, an abuser, has usually been convicted by a jury of his/her peers and found guilty of their crime(s) beyond a reasonable doubt..

A gay son, daughter, neighbor, or co-worker has committed no crime under our secular laws let alone worthy of scorn and rejection by society.  

Do we reject left-handed people?  Left handed people were once considered touched by the devil. The Latin word 'sinistra' means 'left' but later took on the meaning of evil or unlucky.  In the English language, sinistra translates to the word we use today:  sinister which means harmful or evil.  

Hopefully by now, we don't consider left handed people evil as we now know better.    Can we say the same about human sexuality?  No.  Because we still hold dear some superstitions and myths.

The world has seen the type of justice meted out in countries ruled by religioous doctrine and its 'rules' and laws.  Would cranberry prefer to live in such a country rather than here?

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2013 4:37:44 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Nov 12, 2013 19:40:04 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Cranberry I appreciated what you were saying in the other thread. I agree with your point that those that believe in a specific interpretation of the bible have to follow what it says. I am Christian in the sense that I like and believe Christ's teachings. Not so much with Paul. By my reading Paul almost completely contradicts Christ in so many areas and he does so claiming to be a disciple even though he never met Christ in life. So while I don't agree with what Virgil thinks is God's will, I do put God's will as I understand it over the popular choice. That has led me to distance myself from people who make choices I do not believe are moral.

Where are you getting this information from? All of the bible is for teaching and learning from. 

2 Timothy 3:16-17 
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work

1 Thessalonians 2:13 
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Joshua 1:8
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Ya, those statements are the equivalent of me telling you that you have to do everything I say because I speak for God.

A simple bible study tells us who wrote which sections (mostly, a few are disputed), who they were writing to and when. The bible is actually a collection of essays that a group of church elders chose to put into one collection. So even the writers did not intend their statements to apply to that specific collection of essays.

[Shooby]

  In a similar vein, what it your adult child committed a crime?  If that was the case I would expect my adult child to pay the penalty for whatever the crime was be it jail or whatever.  And, I would support the criminal justice if system if my child was guilty.  However, I would still go visit my child in jail or still love them.  So, we can still love our children and understand that they may be guilty of engaging in wrongdoing.

[raeoflyte]

I'm glad my parents picked me. It was a hard time for everyone, but thankfully they didnt follow a belief structure that would have made them choose.

[Deleted]

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Maybe they meant "no spooning".

[Tennesseer]

Nov 13, 2013 8:43:57 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Maybe they meant "no spooning".

The always dependable Leviticus card.


Of couse you can't lie with a male as with a woman.  There is no procreation possible and therefore, no future taxpayers to swell the sparse population of the Leviticus author's geographical area.  

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2013 5:38:01 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Nov 12, 2013 19:47:28 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Some denominations teach the Trinity as One, Father, Son and Holy Ghost are just different manifestations of the same being.

Here's what the bible says on this subject: My comments will be in parenthesis.

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (Many have seen Jesus, have they not?)

Exodus 33:20
But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live. (Evidently God is too powerful to look upon! Again, many have seen Jesus though)

Luke 1:35 
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

John 3:16 
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ya, have that debate with the denominations that teach the Trinity as One. I'm just the messanger here.

[Shooby]

  I know what the Bible says.  Most orthodox Christian denominations accept the concept of the Trinity.  "Let US make man in OUR own image".

[Deleted]

Cranberry which edition of the bible are you referancing?

[Opti]

We might just be discussing semantics. The separation from God manifests in decisions and behaviours.

Its not semantics. So while an atheist
for example can model godly behavior if they believe they are apart from God
or God does not exist at all, technically they would be in a state of sin, which
really just means separation from God. (IMO the belief you are separate from God
may or may not manifest in any specific behaviors. It probably however does
result in the decision not to worship God.)

But since I believe God is all there is, its not really possible to be separate from God.
Only to believe you are. Which is a big reason my non-denominational "church"
puts almost no emphasis on sin.

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2013 9:16:52 GMT -5 Opti said:

We might just be discussing semantics. The separation from God manifests in decisions and behaviours.

Its not semantics. So while an atheist
for example can model godly behavior if they believe they are apart from God
or God does not exist at all, technically they would be in a state of sin, which
really just means separation from God. (IMO the belief you are separate from God
may or may not manifest in any specific behaviors. It probably however does
result in the decision not to worship God.)

But since I believe God is all there is, its not really possible to be separate from God.
Only to believe you are. Which is a big reason my non-denominational "church"
puts almost no emphasis on sin.

Not really, not believing in God is a sin.

It seems to me we agree on the definition of sin. You just don't believe in it.

[Deleted]

One thing that has always confused me, how did homosexuality make the list of sins in the first place? Most sins I understand, lying, killing, stealing...I get why they are a problem. What is the logic with homosexuality? I'm asking believers here, I really want to know.

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2013 9:23:51 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

One thing that has always confused me, how did homosexuality make the list of sins in the first place? Most sins I understand, lying, killing, stealing...I get why they are a problem. What is the logic with homosexuality? I'm asking believers here, I really want to know.

Because God hates homosexuals.

[Deleted]

I think that someone way back when didn't like them and used the bible to spread their message. 

[Deleted]

Archie I'm serious. Other than "God says so" what is the problem?

[Shooby]

Nov 13, 2013 9:23:51 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

One thing that has always confused me, how did homosexuality make the list of sins in the first place? Most sins I understand, lying, killing, stealing...I get why they are a problem. What is the logic with homosexuality? I'm asking believers here, I really want to know.

  Sex is a gift from God given for the confines of marriage and procreation.  If you want to read more, read the Bible.  The Bible clearly speaks of homosexual practices as sin.  Why?  You will have to ask God.  He made the rules.

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2013 9:26:54 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Archie I'm serious. Other than "God says so" what is the problem?

Other than God said so        Who do you think YOU are?

[sarcasticgirl]

thanks again for not actually answering my question. NO worries... no one else with your stance will either.

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2013 9:31:29 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

thanks again for not actually answering my question. NO worries... no one else with your stance will either.

Who are you talking to?